Have you already scanned through this thread?

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1672162/panicum-virgatum-floppy-mess

Seems like there was a mixed bag amongst folks there who grew 'Heavy Metal' and reported that it either "never flopped" or "flopped all the time."

'Northwind' is probably the most popular cultivar around my neighborhood - I grow it as well, and it's always very rigidly upright, even after heavy rains.

Yes, I did look at that thread. I thought the newer cultivars, and HN is touted for its uprightness, would have dealt with that problem. Supporting it with stakes and chicken wire is too much work for this 80 year old, who nonetheless is grateful she can still do what gardening she can.

Prairiemoon, I not only started landscaping at 76, I started building a new house which required enormous attention. I was living only 4 miles down the road, so I was back and forth constantly. I moved in in Dec. 2021, and spent Jan. ordering plants, laying out the quite large area in front of the house and on both sides, and also, by the end of Feb of 2022 I had a vegetable garden enclosed (deerbusters.com) and had plants started in the house. The first year I moved a LOT of plants from the old garden (with permission of the new owners) and received shipment after shipment of mail ordered plants. I was so exhausted at times I could hardly move. Pretty much the same the second year. What was really challenging was that my old place was very sandy soil and the new place is very heavy clay. Most transplants made it but not all. My gorgeous Lycoris sprengeri,for example, send up foliage but never bloom and some have disappeared entirely. Galanthus too not very happy. And, of course, I had to learn a whole new palette of plants, hence the Panicums.

I stopped growing Pennisetums (except for one sterile one) because they seeded prolifically, though I really loved them. Not good. And the same with Miscanthus, which I am now seeing along roadsides. Again, not good. And since I was heavily leaning towards more natives, again, the Panicums. One of the 'Red Sunset' is not splaying and I'll probably leave that.

Laceyvail - Well, you must have been a very healthy 76 years old! That is a very surprising story. Not very many people that age would take on such a big project. You must have believed you could handle it.

I notice that you are in West Virginia. But you are still in my zone, 6a? I believe you are right, that some Pennisetums reseed. I had a couple that did and removed them right away because I was watching them to see if they would. The 'Hamelin' is the only one I've had that does not for me here in New England. It could be different where you are. I've had mine for 20 years at least without issue.

But it sounds like you are going to be happy with your 'Red Sunset' - so problem solved. Not a small job to remove the Heavy Metal though?

I'm actually nearly zone 7a now, but I can't seem to change it. Houzz just makes it impossible and I've given up trying. When I moved to this area over 50 years ago it was a straight 5A. Well, global warming. Right now we're in the midst of a torrential thunderstorm of a type we never got back in the day.

I am pretty healthy except for "if it's not one thing it's another"--back troubles sometimes, leg problems another. Right now, it's a very painful right elbow--taking Naproxen.

I've been able to do most of the garden work myself, but this spring I had a wonderful young person doing the heavy work, and I hope she'll be here...until I'm not." She's pretty busy this summer, but I'm hoping she can take the HM out.

^^^prairiemoon ~ Will you travel out to the western edge of Worcester to help me plan and execute the garden area I must tackle and make it as beautiful as your photos?? Not kidding. I could definitely use your expertise! I love the look of your 'Hamelin" and think it may work for me.

First to find someone able to clear a rather large area of the hideous mess it has become. Where are my sons? Grandsons?? Any available male with muscles?? Will begin the hunt... Wish me luck. =)

Laceyvail, That makes more sense. Zone 7 may be warm enough to allow the Pennisetums to reseed. It is tough to figure out the best choices to make with global warming throwing a monkey wrench into the process.

I understand about trying to change anything about Houzz….lol. Better to leave well enough alone.

If you are having back and muscle or joint pain, it might be the result of how much you do..! But I’m sure if you take a break for a bit, you’ll be ready to tackle some more. Great if you have someone that helps out. Doing the heavy part allows you to do more of what you are good at and can do without killing yourself.

I’ve always found being able to call a PT person a big help. I have one locally who will work with me virtually and it makes it easy to just fit in an appointment here and there.

prairie, it was years ago that I had to stop growing Pennisetums, still zone 5B probably. I did grow Erianthus ravennae (Ravenna grass) for many years at my old place until warmer winters really did let it start seeding about. Took me 2 winters to figure out what the hard to dig little seedlings were from--and then as much as I liked the grass, out it came.

I do make very good use of acupuncture and OMT (Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy)--most of the doctors around here are DOs, and I have always preferred DOs to MDs, in great part because they are much more open to alternative treatments like acupuncture and OMT, which of course they are trained in. I've gotten great exercises from local PT and I still do them quite regularly, more regularly in garden off season. I eat a very healthy diet too--not vegetarian, but the meat/poultry I buy is local grass fed and grass finished. Of course, I have my own organic veggies, and with global warming I can pretty much carry winter cabbages and winter lettuce through the winter. Though I do miss real winter and snow. No junk food, no added sugar, whole grains and lots of beans. Actually, most of my friends are right around my age, and we're all pretty active and pretty healthy. Must be that West Virginia air!

Roxanna, Thank you so much for the vote of confidence. You do realize I only post the photos of whatever looks good at the time…lol. Lots of my property probably looks like you think yours looks. :-) And you know that a photo can edit out a lot of what doesn’t look so great too. That’s why I love photos…lol.

I have a big long border that is right now covered with wild grapevine and ‘native’ Virginia Creeper. I’ve been planning to redo it for 3 years now and still keep having to put it off.

I’m probably going to be trying to do the same thing you are. Hire someone to help with the heavy work. NOT easy to find someone. Every year I try and the past two years, I just haven’t found any one. And they have gotten quite expensive. I used to be able to get someone with a strong back that didn’t really know anything about gardening for $15. An hour. That was about 5 years or so ago. Last time I talked to people they wanted $25. An hour. That gets pretty expensive pretty fast.

I have gotten used to not having the property look the way I want it to. I have a small front garden that I work on and keep that looking the way I want it and I just put blinders on when I walk through the back..lol.

I am planning on just doing a small part of it at a time. Just start. As soon as it cools off, I am just going to break it down into smaller parts. I want to remove all the invasive stuff, pot up any good plants that are in there and plant some potted shrubs waiting to go in there and cardboard/mulch it and move on to the next section. That way I’ll get control of it a little at a time.

I wish I could offer to come out and just give you some moral support at least. Any outcome I end up with is the result of a lot of trial and error rather than any actual design sense. [g] I do love to share the name of plants that have been successful for me and definitely, if you have a place for one or more then ‘Hamelin’ has worked very well for me.

prairie, just thinking, if you're already struggling to keep up the beds you already have, maybe a new one isn't a great idea. Or maybe just putting it into an easy care groundcover--I love Geranium maccrorrhizum for shady areas and G. 'Karmina' or 'Biokovo' for sun. You're probably already familiar with them, but really no care at all and semi-evergreen for you too as well as highly weed suppressing, highly deer resistant and easy both to control or to enlarge. Not natives, though.

Laceyvail - Great suggestions. I'm not trying to start a new bed, it's an old bed that I've tried many things in it, many of which didn't work out well. It's up against my lot line and the neighbor on the other side has a line of spruce trees, a Sycamore tree and a White Pine along my fence line. All planted within less than 10ft of the fence. It just sucks all the moisture out of the soil and there's a fair amount of shade.

My plan is to try to make a hedgerow of sorts, mostly shrubs. The biggest problem has been that when I stopped keeping up with it, it's been overcome with vines. I had the bright idea of allowing the Virginia Creeper to grow where it wanted to, because it was a 'native'. Bad idea...lol. And my neighbor also has a Bittersweet Vine and Poison Ivy climbing the trunks of his half dead Spruce trees. So I get all that in that bed as well. One of the main reasons I've tried to work that bed is as a screen from the neighbor's yard. He never steps foot in it. Never seen a hose or a sprinkler. He used to let Maple seedlings all take root - he had a grove of them there for awhile, but at least he's stopped doing that. 2 of his Spruce trees are now dead and I don't think he has any plans to remove them.

On the front part of that lot line I do have groundcover - Vinca, under my front Maple and it is SO easy. I have the street on one side, the driveway on the other and the fence on a third side. So it's just one edge that I have to keep in bounds. I do have Karmina and Biokovo. And I keep eyeing it to attempt to divide it up and use it in other areas. Great idea. Both of those are pretty most of the year if I keep them watered in drought. In the fall, the foliage turns a really nice red color. I really enjoy them and I'd agree that they are care free.

Just to add, I use karmina and biokovo in full hot sun and never watered even during the drought we had last summer. They are really tough. But it you've got shade, even dry dense shade, try the G. maccrorrhizum.

Worst vine I have here are grapevines, almost impossible to get rid of and all through the messy little woodland behind the house which slopes steeply down to another road. I try to keep the front of it fairly controlled--killing off the endless walnut seedlings and box elders--but the grapevine......

I have dry shade, but I do have areas that are dry but have 4hrs of direct sun a day. That is where I'm thinking of using the Cranesbills. I'll look for the other Geranium.

Where do these grapevines come from? I'm nowhere near a wooded area, just in the middle of a small suburban neighborhood, where most people have grass, trees and a few shrubs. We had one climb almost to the top of a mature Spruce tree next door....in one season. We haven't tried yet to get them out...is it hard to get the roots?

They're wild grape vines and once they're established--and they were there decades before I came on the scene. They also seed constantly so I find seedlings in beds. Some of them are nearly 4 inches diameter and send out vines everywhere. They can pull down the tops of trees with their weight. You could never ever dig them out. I'm fighting vines coming from deep in the wooded mess. I couldn't get in there even if I wanted to, it's so thick in places with box elder, multiflora rose, vines etc.

That's too bad, I wonder if some local group would be interested in rehabing it? We have the Native Plant Trust here - used to be the New England Wildflower Society. I know they do volunteer restoring but I have no idea how they choose the projects they do.

Oh, prairie, this is rural WV. Not much in the way of those types of organizations here. If I were even 20 years younger, I'd probably work on at least part of it, and I did try the first year to get some of the garlic mustard out, but I had to give up. Far beyond my futile efforts.

@laceyvail 6A, WV I appreciate you sharing your experience with G. maccrorrhizum in dense shade. I have some tough spots in front of my house that I haven’t done much with because it is so dry and shady and the ground is full of tree roots. I have a huge holly tree and a big Norway maple and growing anything under them is a challenge. I’ve had good luck with Christmas fern, but it doesn’t expand very quickly. Hellebores do okay too, butbalways looking for something to fill in that area!

You are doing the right thing, Laceyvail, You're lucky to be doing what you're doing let alone restoring a woodland...lol. I've never lived in a rural area, so it never occurs to me how different it is there. Hope you will post photos as you figure out your new garden.

Markay- I have lots of areas in my yard like that. I don't know what is worse, the dry shade or the tree roots!

A couple of other plants to try in dry shade for Prairie and Markay: one of the spreading Epimediums should also do great. And some years ago I got Liriope spicata established around a huge silver maple. (In this situation, you want L. spicata and its rhizotomaceous roots, not L. muscari which clumps.) But the big advantage of the Geranium maccrorrhizum is that it really needs no attention at all. The Epimediums have to be cut back in late winter and so does the Liriope, which is not all that deer resistant as well.

Prairie, as to posting pics, I finally have some recent shots of my garden. I don't have a cell (Luddite here) so a friend took them, but I have no idea at all how to get them from an email on the computer to posting them. Good gardener, but technology pretty much baffles me.

I had a great collection of Epimediums for years and all of a sudden 3 years ago the rabbits started eating them. I have maybe a half dozen left but they really cleaned me out, They ate them just after they pushed out new leaves and they just never recovered. They were my favorite performer in dry shade. It's funny I have a few coming up in my vinca bed and the rabbits never touch those. Oh, and I don't always cut back the epimediums. I've experimented and the new leaves and flowers come up through the dead folaige and sit on top of it for the most part. If there's a little bit showing it's easier to cut that off then cutting back all the dead foliage.

I meant to also say that we are very big with alternative medicine here so I understand going with a DO. I'm just not persuaded that manipulating the joints is a great idea. A lot of people love it. DOs are similar to Chiropractors?

I still don't have a cell phone. My DH finally got one for Christmas for various reasons but he uses it for phone calls and very little else. I take photos with it sometimes and it took me a bit to figure out how to post from the phone online. Luckily I have a tech savy daughter. [g] That helps.

I use a laptop and I send myself the photos from his phone and then import them to my Photo program on Mac and then export them to the desktop of my laptop and when I post here and choose photo, it opens a window of everything on the desktop and I can choose the photo I want to post. There's probably an easier way to do it but that works for me.

DOs are medical doctors just like MDs. Their training is slightly different in that they also learn Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy (OMT) and also Craniosacral (CST); neither are anything like chiropractic, which I do not trust. Both involve very slow movement of parts of the body by the therapist. The Cleveland Clinic uses both. In a town not far from where I live is the WV School of Osteopathic Medicine, and the overwhelming number of doctors here are DOs. I've found that they are much more open to alternative treatments like acupuncture and less likely to jump to drugs/surgery (which really is all MDs have). One of my DOs some years ago also got regular acupuncture himself. Some of them go on to specialties just as MDs might--oncology, podiatry, dermatology, urology, whatever, though I think most remain general practitioners.

My son is very tech savvy, but he lives 2 hours away, and when he and family visit, doing stuff on the computer is waaay down on the list.

Wow, this thread has come a loooong way from my floppy Panicums.

Thanks for the explanation on the DOs. I don't think there are many in this area. Enjoyed the conversation, but yes, far afield of your original post...lol.

I i have a quarter acre of g. macro ”$spessart pale pink/white and a magenta one that cover a hillside normally infested with garlic mustard. i got it started by taking pieces with ample roots, throwing them on the ground and putting a shovelful of soil on topof stem/roots. Watered the starts once or twice. Periodically I’d clear out thevweeds and buckthorn seedlings, divide more geraiums, ”plant , water and wait.”

This is not a masterpiece of landscape design but a very efficient way of handling a landscaping problem.

i noticed how well doronicum grew in a friends heavily wooded backyard.

I got some and it thrived in my darkish woods. So Ive gradually grabbed handfuls, and planted hunks amid the geraniums and any bare spots.

The bright yellow is gradually infiltrating the magenta geraniums. Not to everyone’s taste, Im sure, but far better than buckthorn and garlic . Sweet cicily , the frothy white flower sneaked in and ive let it go. I’k be watching to see how the battle for dominance goes over the years.

opps the one below is g. karmina

Looks like a good solution to a difficult area, Marie. I think G. spessart is a lot like 'Biokovo' but I've never grown it.

“Spessart“is a macrorrhizum

Karmina and Biokovo are geranium x cantabrigiense.hybrid cultivars. . one parent is g. macrorrhizum!

i only know what MOBOT told me.

I thought these were Cranesbills, not geraniums?

Also another great thing about the Karmina etc., is they will regrow from a cut down to the ground even mid to late summer and throw up beautiful new foliage. Which I am about to do soon, since it's been droughty here and we just were issued a ban on all watering outside. Luckily we have rain barrels at least.

Cranesbills is a common name for geraniums.

"I not only started landscaping at 76, I started building a new house..."

That is impressive -- I tip my hat to you!

I have limited experience with the panicums, I don't remember the cultivar I had-- it might have been "Heavy Metal" I'm not sure -- but wasn't that impressed with it. It just didn't grow that well, certainly not to the size it is advertised, and I wanted it as a visual screen to the AC unit. I had quite a few zebra grass, and I've removed all but two clumps -- they grew too enthusiastically and were crowding out other things, and yowza they were hard to removed, I couldn't get all of them out myself, DH finally had to take an axe to the roots. I'm dreading removing those last two clumps, which I eventually will.

Another plug for geranium "Biokovo" being a tough-as-nails, grow-anywhere plant. I will be lusher and showier in moister conditions but can hold it's own perfectly well in dry shade.

Thanks, porkchop. But I have to say, if I had waited even just another 2 years, I couldn't have done it. No major new health issues, but 76 is a LOT younger than 78 and even younger than 80--energy levels mostly. And body just doesn't work quite as well. I think some people keep good energy levels into their 80s (thinking of Nancy Pelosi for example), but I've never had that kind of energy even at my best. Completely gone by 80.

Hope my much younger garden worker can get the panicums out. I will keep one 'Red Sunset'. It has only splayed a little after a torrential rain and then straightened up again unlike the other 'RS' which has to come out with the 2 Heavy Metals. I'll take a piece of it next spring to replace the other RS, but I'm not going to try any other Panicums.

I have to say that my Big bluestem in it’s second year is holding up very well to all the thunderstorms.

LaceyVail - Zebra grass is pretty and I always like most things variegated, but a car dealership near me planted this and I would ride by it and notice how ‘enthusiastically’ it would grow, [g] and thankfully I never planted it. Maybe if you get your young girl to do the Panicums she can do that too!

I found it very interesting that you explained how 76 is so much younger than even 78 and especially 80. I have found the older I get the faster things change and not for the better. So you are confirming that. [g] I’m reaching that point and you’ve inspired me to push harder to get after some of these things I want to do, while I still can.

I’ve never had much energy as an adult either, although I had a lot of it as a kid. But my goal is to be more energetic and stronger than I have been. I saw a YouTube video of a woman that was 86 being interviewed for how she kept in shape and she showed her workout routine. The one thing I zeroed in on, was the fact she did 10 bridges a day. I was impressed. I was doing one or two a day and was pleased with myself..lol. So I’m on a mission to up it to 10 a day. I’m already up to 4 and I feel it making a difference.

I started working in my Long Border this week. I think I will start a thread on that when I get a little further along. I see my Cranesbill are all looking ratty. We’ve been dry here, which is not unusual in July and the town just put a water ban on outdoor watering. Luckily I have two full rain barrels, which I’m just starting to use. So I am planning on watering them well and cutting them back to allow them to produce some new foliage to go into the Fall with and I haven’t decided whether I’ll try dividing them this Fall or the spring. I’m not really planning on adding grasses in my new project, unless I can find some special Carex that might fit the bill to add here and there.

My Andropogon 'Blackhawks' is still young, but I'm hoping it will stay upright, unlike the panicums. The two P 'Heavy Metal' have been removed, it took an hour each but she got them out. The splaying 'Red Sunset' can wait until fall or next spring, and the slightly splaying but returning to upright RS will remain.

I do workouts to retain my strength. I can hold a plank for 20-30 seconds and side planks for some 10 or so. I can squat and get up from one with my arms crossed. Stand on one foot periodically through the day. Arm strength workouts with 2 lb weights have been out since my right elbow is still painful, though not as bad as it was.

As to Carexes, check out 'Feather Falls'--a real stunner.

So glad you were able to get your helper to get those grasses out. You must feel better.

I'm impressed you can do planks. I was just talking to a friend yesterday who is in PT recovering from shoulder surgery and she said they have started her doing planks and she hates them. lol I just have never done them and a few years ago I tried a couple and no, that was going to be a real struggle, so I gave up on them. Maybe just making the attempt for awhile, might yield some results, I'll have to try it again.

I've been able to do 5lb weights for upper body and not that long ago I was doing 10lbs. And I was wearing a weight vest in the winter on walks. Squats are such a help with gardening, right? I haven't tried them with arms crossed. I really need to spend more time improving my balance, because I notice it is not as good as it once was. I do the one leg, I also do a tandem stance. PT had me doing them and moving my head from side to side slowly while in that stance and I was falling out of that, so I've backed off to just working on the tandem stance for now.

You really have to work at it, just to maintain the strength you have, right? It's not easy building new muscle at this age!

Thanks for the tip on the Carex, I'll check it out.

Yes, you really have to keep at it. I started working on planks less than 3 years ago, doing modified ones at first since I couldn't do the full ones at all.

OKay...amazing what you can do in your 70s. I didn't think of modified planks, I'll look for those, thanks.

The blue panicum varieties emerge very late and pokey in development in my northern location, though those showing color do great! Has been a coolish summer of timely rains, 'Prairie Fire' hasn't yet colored up as it did with last years heat. 'Hot Rod' is new and appears promising, remains small, though nice form and color, really should pick up a few more if still available at the greenhouse. Andropogon Gerardii 'Blackhawks' does amazingly well and quickly can be divided to spread more about the place. The Schizachyrium scoparium varieties appear to prefer lighter richer and moister soils or otherwise have declined or just refuse to get going, will amend the soil for these or move about to better ground, I purchased 'Sandhill' this spring for which remains potted and looking quite good.