#2 - keeps traffic out of your kitchen working area. You could enlarge the windows and flood with light. You still get a window at the sink, decent prep space, Fridge on the perimeter (can grab a drink without crossing in front of the stove. Goodness.

Thank you. I am a bit hesitant with all the open wall space and squishing all the “kitchen” space in a smaller corner. Also felt like less prep space than”peninsula” version.
But I also see the advantages.

1 or 2. 3 looks like it’s being forced.

Of the choices, #2 for sure.

For #2, any improvements we can make?

If you are passing the cooktop to get from sink to refrigerator, make sure the aisles are wide enough that someone can get around someone at the cooktop. Aisles should be *at least* 48", with 52" being better, not the 36" from cabinet to cabinet that is shown.

All the clearances are problematic. An island with seating isn't a good fit with that width kitchen.

What is there now?

The aisles are probably 42” around based on my math. Here is current layout. We have a movable table in the same location as layout 3 peninsula.

#2. The important measurement for aisle is counter edge to counter edge. Not cabinet face to cabinet face. Put wide drawer base cabs in the island. Drawers anywhere else you can. In #2, there's an opening to the right of the frig. Can that be moved to the right to where the drawers are shown on the other side of the opening? Adding counter work zone space between the frig and range is very useful for prep and cooking. If the opening cannot be moved, I'd put the frig on the other side of the opening for more workzone space around the range. I'd get an induction range.

Help me understand traffic flow in your house. Is the family mostly entering the house through the back door/kitchen door, or somewhere else? I'm wondering if the back door to Living room path is heavily used, or are you coming through the LR to get to the kitchen (or thru dining??). It makes a difference as to whether plan 1 or plan 2 has the most sensible path of travel for how you use the space.

We come through the living room primarily. But the back door is used a lot in the summer and goes out to our deck and patio.
We def use the back door at least once a day, to let the dog out :)

Regarding moving the fridge - the width of the walkway, where the pantry is, is exactly 34”. Too narrow to have a fridge there.
We also use the dining room entrance (the opening between fridge and pantry) all the time, so we cannot close it completely. We have moved it as far to the side as we can

#2

It would be really helpful if we had a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on (not just Kitchen and PR). Also, please tell us a little about yourself and your family and how you plan to use the Kitchen.

What's the depth of the "jog"? The 148" includes the "jog" in the top left of the three layouts, but how deep is it. It's important b/c the rest of the Kitchen is narrower than 148", but we cannot tell by how much. (My "guess" is 6", but I don't know that for certain.)

(I'm assuming measurements on the left wall are flexible and that's why you didn't provide anything other than the overall measurement of 148".)

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The following is from the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread. You've provided some of the information, but not all.

Please post a fully-measured layout of the space under consideration and a sketch of the entire floor. Both can be either hand-drawn, computer generated, or drawn up with computer/app tools.

By "fully-measured", we mean a layout with the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway labeled. See a sample below. If something cannot be moved or changed, label it precisely on your layout...and tell us why it cannot be moved/changed -- we may have some ideas for you.

The sketch of the entire floor lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries.

Regardless of how you draw it up (by hand, computer, etc.), please be sure all measurements are labeled. (Note: Computer generated layouts often lack key measurements and, sometimes, measure to/from things like the middle of a wall or the middle of a window. Neither are useful. Measure each item and the distances between each item.)

Other questions...

• Tell us about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. All-adults? Empty Nesters? Children (now or in the future)?
• What appliances (& their sizes) do you plan to have?
• Where are you flexible? Can walls/windows/doors/doorways change (move, change size, add, delete)? [I think you covered most of this.]
• Do you have a basement directly under the Kitchen? (I'm guessing yes, but just checking since some homes have partial basements.)

Aisles...Your aisles appear to be 36", not the 42" you stated. That's base on "counting boxes".

Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out into them the farthest - appliance handles, counter overhangs, etc. Cabinet boxes are 24"D, but that does not include the doors/drawer fronts or the 1.5" counter overhang. (The overhang protects the doors/drawer fronts from spills and even prevents spills from getting into the top drawers.)

Perimeter depths with no appliances or other items sticking out into the aisle are 25.5" deep.

Island seating...how deep is the seating overhang? For counter-height seating it should be a minimum of 15" of clear leg/knee space. That puts the island at 41.5"D:

1.5" counter overhang in the front of the island

+ 24"D cabinets

+ 1" decorative door or finished end panel

+ 15" Seating overhang

================

41.5" deep

If you eliminate the decorative door/end panel, then 40.5" deep

Each seats needs 24" of linear space - you appear to have plenty of linear spacing in all three layouts.

What's the size of the island in the first two layouts? I'm asking b/c they appear to be labeled 7' x 8', but they're obviously not that size. They appear to be 7.5' x 3' (At least in the first layout. The other two don't have boxes to "count" - they're washed out, if they even exist.)

One recommendation - I don't advise having glass-front cabinets flanking a range or cooktop, especially when the hood is a bit undersized in the third layout. The recommended width of range hoods is 6" wider than the appliance and 24" deep. In the case of a 30" range, the hood should be 36"W x 24"D. In addition, for a standalone hood, it's a good idea to have at least 3 or 4 inches b/w the hood and cabinet for cleaning as well as "breathing space", similar to what is done around windows when there are cabinets flanking a window.

Grease and other FOGSS (Fumes, Odors, Grease, Smoke, Steam) can sometimes escape even the best hoods and with glass from cabinets right next to the range, they could potentially collect grease (and the dust that often clings to grease creating "gunk"). Yes, non-glass cabinets will also collect gunk, but it won't be as obvious.

Also, keep in mind that with glass front cabinets you need to keep everything in them very neat and, preferably, "staged" for looks. If you get seeded or similar obscuring glass, it's not as necessary to be draconian about keeping the insides neat and "presentable".

Have you considered making the pantry area into a 6' or so reach-in pantry with 12" or so deep shelves? You can fit a lot more in an actual pantry as opposed to a pantry cabinet b/c you can utilize the entire space floor-to-ceiling. (It's also a lot less expensive!) I have 2-21"W pantry cabinets with roll out tray shelves (ROTS) and one 18"W with a lower pullout and they are in no way as good as the step-in pantry I had in my previous house! (I miss so much about that Kitchen *sigh*)

Thank you all for the comments. Here is the full first floor layout.

The current arch in the kitchen will be removed. Remains to be seen whether we can remove both sides or just the left side. Floor plan with peninsula was set up in case we could not remove the full arch, hence why it has a column there. Floor plans 1 and 2 assume full arch is removed (no bump outs). The distance on floor plan 2 between the island and dishwasher is 36”, stove/fridge and island is 42” and behind the island is 40/44”.
We cook a lot. Don’t eat out much. Spend time in the morning for breakfast with the kids, we need that eat in space.

Don't scream please?

The boxes are each 2' ? Even that doesn't match up: ) . The living room, on that scale appears 12' x 24'.

The help you get back will be as good, as accurate, as the information you provide,

We often suggest graph paper as a tool......personally I prefer a scale RULER unless you are going to USE the Boxes.

Walls have a thickness inter 4" exterior 6" for the most part. It makes a sketch more legible. Spend some time on that, if you can?

A bit more .....this? Note, and use the scale you note.

To provide all the info asked. 3 growing children, 5 person household. Plan on having a 30” range, 36” counter depth
refrigerator (have a spill over basic fridge in the basement).
We really abuse/use our kitchen. We have made the current layout work with an extra table but I dream, dream of the day I have full lit, functional prep space and nice appliances.

Thanks appreciate the feedback. Yes, each square is 2 feet. I believe the living room is the only space that is off. The others match.

^^^

So the office is 6' x 18' and your stair is 48" wide?

I'm not trying to torture you. You are "DREAMING of better".... do the very neat and accurate work that gets you talent here, with a combined thousand years of experience!! FREE!!

Jan Moyer - yes the office is that size, it is an enclosed sun porch, which I believe is popular with Dutch colonial revival homes such as mine. We call it an office, but it is currently a playroom.
I understand what you are saying in terms of details, however we do not have the budget to redesign our whole first floor. It has been suggested that we can take over the half bath into the kitchen for example, but we need a half a bath and we do not want to add another $15k or more to add a new half bath somewhere else.
The wall between the dining room and kitchen can potentially be in play since it is not load bearing, but I don’t know what it could help us majorly with and I like the separation of spaces.
The floor plans I added are from our kitchen designer after they officially measured the space.

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From the whole floor plan I can see you have a step back for the dining room. I agree with you that you don't gain much taking down any wall between the kitchen and the dining room because there's only a few inches of overlap. The other wall segment overlaps the bathroom.

What I do see for some possible help is the door to your patio. You're showing it as movable. If you eliminate it your configuration options are increased.

How do you get to the outdoors? I see 8 feet of window at the end of the dining room. An 8 foot doorwall made of two 4 foot sections with one side a sliding patio door could give you access. Possibly to a larger patio segment or deck to connect to your existing patio or replace it.

And in the first option you show the 75" window as remova ble. With the door and window out you can put the frig at either end of a 'L' layout similar to an expanded option 1. depending also on which leg gets the sink. No corner cabinet. A 24" sink base which will fit a 24" undermount sink. That's 21 x 17" mounted with a Hercules sink strap. If the sink goes on the back wall the 75" window could be reinstalled on the back wall.

There are 4 possibilities. 6" spacer then frig on the back wall left end with either the sink or the range on the back wall. Frig at the right end of other wall where the window was with either the sink or the range on that run.

We have a raised deck right off the kitchen that goes down to the patio. Removing the dining room windows and installing patio doors and steps would probably add 10k to the project. (Maybe more). The patio is right below the dining room window, adding steps would take about 4 feet of the patio width, reducing the usable space there.
Lastly, our grill is on our covered raised porch. Very convenient right off the kitchen.
Here is a picture.

An 8' insulated new patio door starts at about $1500, and it looks like you'd use 4 steps down to your ground level the same as shown on the left. A raised porch connecting to the covered portion would be a logical alternative. Best function for every day cooking and meals can require a bit less convenience for periodic grilling. Block could go right on your existing patio.

Just do the second plan - it's the only one that doesn't send foot traffic directly through cook and prep.

Make every lower cabinet drawer base but the sink and a trash pullout..

Thank you for the perspective

Only thing that keeps bothering me is the 40” behind the stools (44” after the wall bumps out). That does not seem like enough space to walk through on a regular basis

It isn’t really if anyone is in the stools. But we also make things work and it is fine.

Option #2 seems the most functional. It keeps the main cooking zones separate from traffic, creating a safe and efficient work triangle between the stove, fridge, and sink. Congestion will be reduced when aisles are wider, especially during busy cooking periods.

Add a prep area between the fridge and stove to make cooking easier. Additionally, maximizing natural light and storage will enhance usability and comfort.

There isn't going to BE perfection. Not with a peninsula, not with an island.

Trust me.....they'll manage to pass by. You won't die without counter top edge to edge perfection. Otherwise? You tear off the deck, and you put an addition on the house.

People raise children in the most luxurious pre war buildings in NYC. and kitchen space is at a premium despite all the resource in the world. The kids survive..

It seems to me you should be looking at the entire house circulation, not just the Kitchen. A couple things first:

- You have a small house. Set expectations for the Kitchen to be proportional to that.

- The existing arched opening, which opened up to the captured former Sunroom addition and then the Kitchen expanded into it, will be a defining trait and should always be shown. You can remove the arch, but because of the hip roof over the (former) Sunroom, there will be a beam soffit at the height of a top of door. That will define the space below it, say if you cut through an island, or differentiate zones in the Kitchen (just like the arch does now).

- Have to-scale drawings of the entire floor created. Your project scope may creep into how you access the backyard, moving the Powder Room, etc. It might be scary to think of any costs beyond the Kitchen, but your opportunities should remain open at this conceptual stage, and the inadequate drawings hinder that.

So looking at the entire house, the first Kitchen scheme shown is a better direction. It is a more optimal plan for the house, with lots of available opportunities.

Some of the opportunities (not shown) that could be explored:

• Opening up the wall from the Dining Room to the Kitchen/island, making a better connection from Living/Dining to the backyard
• Closing off the secondary hallway past the Powder Room, capturing usable space, which can become a full Pantry Room.
• Disassociating the Powder Room with the Kitchen completely.
• A small banquet or Breakfast table.
• Closing off the Porch as access to the backyard.

Thanks. Yes, I agree with you that the current traffic from front door to back is almost a straight line and we use that pathway a lot.
I may be just stuck with the peninsula that sends people through the cooking space. We have lived with that for 10 years, at least now we will have an upgraded looking kitchen and the fridge won’t be in the middle of nowhere.
No perfect decision, either the pathway is oddly placed, aisles are too narrow, traffic through the work area. my head is spinning
And now I am debating which is actually the best way to go.

Unfortunately, we have other budget priorities that do not include moving half baths, closing the deck, etc. while I appreciate the suggestions, I am looking forward to this being our last renovation, not an addition or floor gut project!

Eva, I'm not sure what part of my comment you are dismissing. What I was showing is why the 1st scheme was better that the 2nd, contrary to many comments just looking within the Kitchen walls and cabinet layout performance. I actually placed the 1st scheme onto your whole house plan.

"Opportunity" does not mean you have to act on each individual one. What it shows is the genius of a design - when it works better, you have many directions to go and they all work better - rather than designing yourself into a corner that is isolated unto itself.

Not dismissing your point at all- exactly the opposite - I was really agreeing with you on the whole house circulation point.

Appreciate you giving your input here.

^^

I believe the "scope" is just a "budget dismissal: )

Last time reno. and unwilling to relocate a half bath.

To comment on the specifically called out opportunities:

• wall from dining room to kitchen - totally doable and probably not too expensive. The downside would be losing the storage space in the small hallway, but we have considered it. If we were to go with option 1, the dining/kitchen opening will be much bigger.
• closing off the hallway - current traffic through the house goes through that hallway. Closing it off changes how we use the space and moves more traffic through the living room, another undesirable outcome as we have maximized space there with a big sectional so not a ton of room in general. I like the current flow of traffic
• powder room/kitchen - powder room is nestled below the second flight is stairs going up to the second floor. If we were to do that, we would actually move the basement entrance to that space and take full advantage of the newly created L shape in the kitchen. Whoever the cost is not to be taken lightly. As mentioned we need a powder room and 4 years ago when we got quotes to just retire and refresh the current one they were all ~8k. (We ended up dyi -ing). So moving a whole powder room and basement steps now I estimate $15k -$20k and don’t want to add that to the project. Besides where would we even move it to?
• small banquet/breakfast table - we have thought about that in the same corner as option 3’s peninsula. Have a counter there and follow with built in banquet table. I need the peninsula/counter surface for food prep. Ultimately not much of a difference vs counter seating
• closing off the porch as access does not work unless we create another access point - dining room windows are the option to turn into slider. We just had the steps on one side of the porch redone for 5k. Even if I don’t count the sunk costs in that, adding a door, doing siding work, adding double the width steps plus I would like a landing area would be ~10-15. We will go a bit into the patio so now the patio needs to be extended. Not to mention that the porch becomes useless. Or we spend even more and make a whole deck at the porch level wrapping to the dining room. Not budget friendly.

A lot of typos above, app is not giving me the option to edit an old post, so apologies for that