The Advice on Roses - Clarification (the AI one)

last month

I'm going to try to post here -- for some reason since my original post Houzz won't let me add to this conversation!!! So annoying. I did edit my original post (it let me do that -- at least I think it did -- I can see it on my end) to say that I'm not actually wondering or worried about pruning. I would not prune a baby rose because Chat GPT told me to! Thank you, all of you, for trying to save me (or my roses, but ultimately me, as I would be the grieving one!).

My question for the scientists was WHY, scientifically speaking, is it a problem to plant a small plant in a BIG pot...or a small rose in a big hole? A very experienced gardner at my local nursery (since retired) told me years ago not to plant a small plant in a big pot -- but gradually pot it up. But I didn't ask why and I should have. I think the same thing is happening when I dig a huge hole to fit the cage in, but the rose plant is still small. So the idea about cold clay that AI suggests seems wrong to me -- as I'm filling in the hole with some soil, come compost, some worm poop, a dash of manure. And, these beds have been amended for over 25 years, so it's not pure clay. And, I would think that a questing root, when it hits a wire in the cage would just go around. The holes are smaller than chicken wire, but it would take years for a root to be big enough to feel confined by the cage...and by that time the cage would likely be largely rusting away...?

Anyway -- rest assured that I would not take a one-gallon rose and just chop off the canes. Heirloom sends out their one-gallons defoliated to reduce stress in shipping (and transplanting, probably). I think that's enough! But all the videos show people digging holes for the one-gallon roses (or DA's 2 quarts) and everything is hunky dory. I can't do the "just right" sized hole b/c I need the gopher wire cages...but WHY do ANY plants need smaller holes? What is the science?

Elena -- I am wise to AIs hallucinations (easiest way to check a student paper for AI is to check their references!). Chat GPT says it consulted several sources, and I checked them -- they exist -- I just didn't read them, as they are horticulture textbooks costing a lot of money. Maybe when I retire I'll start reading horticulture textbooks. I felt quite accomplished to have read a book on Dahlias recently... I did ask it to describe the gopher wire cages (good suggestion!), and it did. It was slightly off on the gauge, but otherwise good.

Anyway -- thank you all again for your helpfulness. Sorry to send you all down rabbit holes on pruning/not pruning. I appreciate your jumping in to help. But I didn't mean to start a controversy (or an AI trend!). p.s. I also asked Chat GPT which rose it would dig up -- gave it a list of roses on the chopping block -- and it picked a totally different rose 3 different times, giving conflicting advice each time. And that's the paid-for version! If you call it out on conflicting or bad advice, it apologizes, but will do the same dang thing next time. You really can't trust it.

https://youtube.com/shorts/8llFNN6LSao?feature=share

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Comments (5)

elenazone6
last month
@DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA),

It might be the same idea as the way tomato seedlings are recommended to be grown. I’ve been doing this for years and I’m very hands-on. The roots are supposed to form a solid root ball and fully fill the container; only after that does it make sense to move the plant into a larger volume. Ideally, to produce a strong bush with a well-developed root system, the plant should be stepped up twice. In practice, I usually do it once, and it works well when done at the right time.
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last month
I think small roses/bands need small pots to larger pots to give them a boost. I don't think a small hole in the ground would do as well. I think they would start slower in the ground whatever the size hole. I thought it might be a watering issue with the small plants rotting in a larger pot or hole.

In Alaska, starting in pots could be warmer soil than in the ground which was a good thing. Down here, I have cooked plants in small pots and need to put pots on the North side patio to keep them cooler.
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roseseek
last month
You pot smaller plants of all types in smaller pots so their roots infiltrate the soil ball, knitting it together to hold it solid so when you repot into a larger pot, it doesn't fall apart, damaging the root ball. A smaller soil ball warms faster to a warmer temperature than a large one does. That added warmth stimulates faster growth. That's one issue you have to be aware of when growing plants in smaller pots in warmer climates to prevent them from cooking in extreme conditions. Any potted plant will require repotting in time. Building a tighter root ball gradually by stepping the plant up to the next sized pot will produce a root ball more likely to be able to be successfully removed and repotted without damage.

You don't plant small plants in large holes because you want the roots to grow out into the undisturbed soil of the bed. When you loosen the soil to create a large hole with its amendments, the roots will tend to limit themselves to that looser, softer soil so they don't venture out as far in search of water and nutrients. Providing a smaller planting hole will require the roots to grow into the undisturbed soil faster so they establish themselves earlier. They will become more wind resistant than they would had the majority of their root system had been limited to a large planting hole and their roots will forage for resources over a wider area of the bed.

I found decades ago, rooted cuttings as well as bare roots develop into better garden plants when started in the correct sized pot for the plant size, then upsized to five gallon pots as the plants developed to that size, before planting in the ground. It also allows me to see what the plant is likely to look like as a more mature specimen which helps me determine where I'd probably want it to grow in the bed. Will other methods work? Probably. These have worked successfully for me for the past forty-plus years of rose growing.
DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA)
Original Author
last month
THANK YOU! This makes sense.
roseseek
last month
@DDinSB (Z10b Coastal CA) you're welcome!