Judi, if you know upfront that you don’t have enough roses that have just come onto the market, there are a few ways to handle the situation. One is through a membership model (which partially compensates). Another is to do something similar to what Palatine did. Or simply set the price at a level that only a small group of people can afford.

What did Palatine do, Elena? I ordered from them up until they shut down and never saw anything remotely unethical in the way they handled their limited and/or exclusive varieties. They set a limit of one per household so that more of us could get a chance at
getting one of these special roses. That’s not elitist snobbery.

@elenazone6 "GRF seems to operate less like a traditional nursery and more like a collector-focused club."

No thank you. IMO, that model does not deserve support.

That is what Elena is alluding to, shes not saying Palatine did anything wrong. GRF has three avenues to capture the consumer surplus or address the difference between their limited supply and high demand. Impose a limit per customer, charge a very high price, or do a membership model. The latter while frustrating for the customer maximizes value for GRF by allowing them to sell or move quantities of other roses in addition charging a really high price for the exclusives. More specifically, they were able to sell more Star Roses and Pink Tumbleweed bushes.

So are you saying, knightsgambit, that GRF not only requires you to buy a membership to access their exclusive roses, but also charges these members more for the exclusive roses than the other roses?

They haven’t come out with pricing on the exclusives for this year but for last year, exclusives were $50 for the Japanese and $45 for non -Japanese whereas the Star Rose bare roots were about $35 and a bit lower with sales etc.

My guess is that pricing might start at $50 on the lower end, maybe $75 on the higher end. Either way, they have a locked customer base, they will charge as high a price as they can get away with. If you spent $300 on a membership and you find out each rose is $75, what are you going to do? You’ll either accept the price and buy the rose or balk and eat the $300 loss.

Judi, I didn’t mean that Palatine did anything wrong. Because I’m fairly tech-savvy, I was able to get everything I wanted from Palatine every single year without any efforts. But I know some people were waking up early and spending hours—even days—constantly refreshing the page. We’re all different, and for me that feels more frustrating and even a bit humiliating than simply paying a fee to get what you want. And it doesn’t make me feel or act elitist or snobbish.

Also, exclusive roses are only a small part of the entire collection. The Secret Garden and the old DA collection are still accessible with the $99 Gardener membership.

P.S. I don’t have a GRF membership and I’m not affiliated with them.

Actually, I wasn’t suggesting, Elena, that you implied Palatine did something wrong. I guess my point is that whereas different companies have different methods of handling the sale of limited or exclusive varieties, those methods are not necessarily equally ethical. Nor was I suggesting you or anyone else in this forum is elitist or snobby by buying into their membership program. I was suggesting, however, that GRF’s methods of handling the sale of their limited and exclusive varieties strikes me as less ethical and more snobbish than the methods used by Palatine. I personally missed out on some of the roses I really wanted from Palatine because I wasn’t as quick as others to get mine in the cart and checked out, but I never felt the system was unfair or that Palatine was milking their customers for more money. I can’t say the same for GRF.

I don’t think GRF needs my advocacy, but last season was a big setback for them because of crown gall on roses that came from a well-known vendor.

PS. Speaking of ' milking their customers for more money ', we all love AA, correct? They are sending their roses to Raft Island roses and this nursery will be selling them for $34.95. Go figure.

Ouch! Where is Raft Island roses?

https://raftislandrosesnursery.com/?fbclid=IwY2xjawQWvgRleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFNdXh4U0djSzRyNkdXTUNQc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHnL39VxoduqU0LUtI6OIKabxeFg5qrP-thB-U9_vuFA0D0UxvxIVMVz6ecnK_aem_q0dhA1mhbOV48kUQjWjENQ

@kentucky_rose zone 6 Washington state.

@elenazone6 what seems to be the issue? are people upset that the roses that they paid $50 for are now $34.95?

@knightsgambit, it was simply an illustration responding to Judy’s claim that GRF is “milking their customers for more money,” while Palatine somehow is not. AA, like any normal business, is also making money. Given that they are the growers, their margins are likely quite strong, their prices are firm, and discounts are rare.

In reality, it may simply be that some roses cannot sell at the prices they would prefer. That’s not unusual — it’s just basic supply and demand at work.

I must be dense, Elena, but I don’t get your point. :) I’m happy to see a business making money…. Isn’t that we
expect from a business? I certainly don’t begrudge a nursery trade making a good living and, in fact, I hope they do! If they don’t make money, they fold up and disappear.

Judi, Let’s agree that nobody is perfect — and let a hundred flowers bloom.

I think you both have differing views as to the importance of ethos in how a business is run. At the risk of speaking for both of you, Elena doesn't see GRF's practices as unethical but simply about supply and demand. There is not enough supply for these in-demand roses, there are consumers willing to pay a high price including membership fee, and GRF is simply doing what any smart business would do. Judi and by extension Paul and some others feel that the practice of extracting every cent from the consumer is very avaricious and snobbish.

I admire companies like Palatine and by what I've learnt Raft Island that are true mom and pop shops and want to make things affordable for their customers and their local community. The Raft Islands owner wanted to keep the price at $34.95 in order keep things reasonable for his local customers who are loyal to him while giving them access to some new varieties. The corporatization of nurseries and gardening across the country irks a lot of people including myself because we see nurseries as integral parts of the fabric of our community where you know the owners and both the customer and owner have each other's interest at heart.

As I mentioned previously, I think it's a huge positive that GRF has much better customer service, better product, is on time, and is overall doing much better for customers but the excessive marketing and steep price of the membership (and the membership itself) aren't things I'm a fan of.

For anyone who's interested, this is the Raft Island owner's own words on A&A offering. I've never met or talked to the guy but he seems like a geniunely good man.

Regarding the AprilandAshley stuff.

I want to be respectful of the company and the brand.

First, my price point has always been lower than most in the industry. Part of that is my location and part of it has been because of customer loyalty.

We only ship for roughly 2 months of the year. That compression makes us want to move as many as we can during that window. Also, the less care we have to do makes it easier to offer a lower price.

I’ll be real for a second. Here we go.one thing that really gets under a retailers skin is when people complain about prices. Like really burns us up. You don’t have to buy,but don’t insult us. I’m concerned that folks will complain to AprilandAshley that my prices or cheaper. Don’t do that.

AprilandAshley are building something beautiful and folks start complaining then it becomes a lot less fun. I’m being selfish too, because I don’t want them to get fed up with complaints and say that RaftIslandRoses isn’t worth it. It is very important that they succeed because they give consumers options.

They have many more varieties then I do and they grow them a lot longer. Just for the knowledge alone they deserve what they are asking for their plants. They could be a game changer.

That being said, I have a base built over decades and increasing prices too fast doesn’t seem wise. I also don’t like confusion either. This is the first year we have even had separate prices for Austin’s and other roses.

So, we will be selling the AprilandAshley roses for $34.95 this year just like are David Austin’s. Of course they are worth it. I will spare you all the reasons why, but most of you know roses are a great value.

Bottom line, just know if you complain to them you aren’t helping me out at all. You are actually doing serious damage to something that could be special. I never hesitate to criticize, but save it for the companies owned by corporations that do a bad job of delivering what customers want.

@KittyNY6 Cole/One Love Roses is selling them without sending any royalties to the original breeder. He likely acquired the plants on Etsy and other marketplaces and started propogating them for sale. I doubt the Chinese breeders and some of the non Wabara/Princess breeders will be receiving royalties from GRF or One Love. It’s hypocrisy and unfair to profit from someone else’s work without compensating them and to adopt a membership model on top of that to squeeze more money is pushing it.

A few seasons back One Love was selling DAs, Meillands, Kordes now they’re selling ”bootleg” roses. I sympathize with whatever personal issues the owners have had but the reviews of Chamblees and One Love tell a really bad picture.

I do wish Cole would’ve clarified the whole story when he was on the forum. He seemed earnest enough but bolting as soon as people questioned him was not a good move.

@KittyNY6 all those roses are grown at Otto & Sons. She just posted a video walking around the grounds about a week ago. For what it’s worth they looked great as did the new Meilland and Kordes roses they’re releasing. I think Heidi has hit a home run being able to source these varieties for GRF.

Agreed that all the Wabara/Princess line roses are legally propogated, I’m skeptical on the Chinese ones and Thierry Marx.

@KittyNY6 "Chibese (sic) & obscure varieties, just mysteriously will appear this spring for GRF sale, Where are they from? ETSY?"

This is a question for GRF management, not the readership of GardenWeb.

In the U.S., a plant can only be protected if it has a U.S. plant patent (PP number). That protection lasts 20 years from the filing date. During that time the plant cannot be propagated without permission from the patent holder.

If a rose does not have a U.S. patent, it can be legally propagated in the United States, even if it is protected in other countries.

Protections such as European Plant Breeders’ Rights or Chinese Plant Variety Rights apply only in those regions unless the breeder also files a U.S. patent.

Old roses (historical varieties) are long out of protection, so they are completely free to propagate.

So the practical rule is simple:

No U.S. plant patent — propagation in the U.S. is legal.

@elenazone6 thank you for clarifying the legality around this, I had a feeling this is why a lot of Etsy sellers and companies like Highgarden and One Love are allowed to operate.

Nonetheless, I see this as completely unfair and a huge flaw in patent rights. These breeders aren’t millionaires, their work was brought into the country, without their consent, most likely illegally, and they will not see a cent for years of work. Let that sink in as to how cruel business can be.

Four exclusives were recently released and are now available to the general public. I like how the market reflects when prices are too high.

https://www.gracerosefarm.com/products/wilhelmina-grace%E2%84%A2-potted-rose-bush?_pos=25&_sid=ad87e9427&_ss=r

Four nice roses but not unique and the marketing again is overkill. The stories are just AI slop. The four female names are great on their own without the ”- Grace”. Grace did well to pivot from the original names. They were too cumbersome and she’s savvy enough to change them. Price them at $50 or $55 and they will sell but $80 plus shipping, that’s too high.

@knightsgambit

These 4 roses are hmmm.

I found this artice in Floral International News…… May shed light on any rose farm growing unpatented roses or trying to sell unpatented roses from other countries that are ”not patented, not paying royalties to original breeder.” .

After reading this article, I believe ”any unpatented rose sold, grown, or received in the US, should ”NOT be sold or received or grown in the US.” It is “internationally illegal” the article says below…… The roses are being seized, confiscated, and people receiving the unparented roses are being fined.

The person receiving an unpatented rose is responsible for the receipt of the rose. That person can face fraud, fines, and have the rose taken away, be it a Chinese rose, a European rose, and any international rose not patented to be in the US.

(Historical old roses (OGR) , outgrown their patents, do not apply to this regulations.)

Please check it out & see what you think?

My understanding is there is international law for the floral world in protecting patents now.

Plantec, in Equador is helpful, in following this international law. A&A receives some patented roses from Plantec.

. One should not be growing , receiving, or selling a rose which is patented in China, Japan, Europe or from any country, or from US, unless that person received patent rights from the breeder & pays royalties.

And if the rose was bred & patented in China or another country, but doesn’t have a US patent, the US may not have a patent to enforce protection on it, but ibternational law ”is now protecting the breeder’s patent.”

Interesting.

@knightsgambit

AI generates what it understands… but I believe this quote from AI is a ”minderstanding-incorrect if taken too literally…”

I think you cannot grow a Chinese rose in the US that is still under patent from a Chinese breeder in China, unless you obtain patent rights in US. It is still legally protected by international floral law.

I believe the AI was supposed to mean that ”you can grow any Chinese or other rose if it no longer has any patent, hence it has no US parent orcany parent now from anywhere, in US or any country…. if it has outgrown its patent by about 20 years. If you read articles the AI gave orcread below it….

The AI quote above ……went on to talk about out growing patents by 20+ years and heirloom old roses all out growing their patents. AL talks about roses not having patent because they out grew the patent. Then of course, if no patent in US or anywhere now, then you can receive, grow, sell it.

Again, when AI says something…. I always triple-quadruple check it’s computer synthesized understanding & sources and read further reknown research to fully understand. .

What do you think?

Rose Explosion & Rose-It , in China, exports roses to US . USDA told ne, when I called USDA, that that,”China is not legally even allowed to sell roses to US… due to low quality pest control standards in growing them. It is illegal to be buying roses from China grown.

Therefore, how can the US have any ”legal Chinese roses imported here and propagating/selling here in US? With or without patent, they would be illegal to obtain them from China to grow them in US? The USDA will conviscate them from the receiving person, the buyer or seller.

I think a number of people illegally imported these roses. They then sold and developed a following for them in the rose community and Etsy and now companies like One Love and GRF are using the loopholes in patent law to sell them. As they are propogating on budwood grown here, there are no quarantine rules they have to follow and I doubt either is paying any royalties.

No one being held liable only encourages more people to do it. Asian psylids, chinese lantern flies, are just a few examples of insects that have caused billions in damage. These importers dont see the damage they cause and neither do the buyers.

Yesterday I place an order with GRF for 4 bare roots: Moonstone, Veteran’s Honor, Sheer Elegance, and Francis Meilland. My garden was severely hurt from the extreme low’s Mon, Tues, and Wed morning.

Kentucky, your roses will be fine — just a slight delay in blooming.

If anyone is looking for a very hardy climber, Colette is impressive — no leaf damage at all after a couple of nights down to 19°F.

I’m sure your GRF roses will be fine too. I haven’t seen any complaints about them this season so far.

Did you get your AA roses yet?

Elena, no, tracking does say roses are in Lexington, expected delivery Mon. I do hope I get them today to start soaking them. How long did you soak yours?

@knightsgambit

Not sure US is looking to try to enforce international patent laws, but the Chinese roses in US are internationally illegal and any propagating/selling of them is illegal i internationally. Even if not caught at US customs, and later propagated, they are internationally illegal. USDA , if they are aware of any propagation, would confiscate them & fine the grower. USDA may not know of many ”growers propagating Chinese roses.”

There are Chinese vendors selling Japanese & other European roses, but the USDA is allowing these roses, when certified, to enter US. However, US is not responsible to check their patents. They may & may not in some cases have patents to be sold in US.

A few Chinese roses sold by a US seller….The seller labels them ”Chinese Roses.”

I am double checking for rose plant certification, with USDA, , maybe next week, but I think all this propagating of Chinese roses is illegal in US, and not legal for customers to buy them.

@kentucky_rose zone 6

Your order looks lovely! Sorry about this wonter. I am still waiting to see if my roses are healthy enough to grow. Freezes at night here, still. Days are warmer 40sF now.

Kentucky, I’m very much against the misconception of intentionally soaking bare roots for extended periods of time. I never soak mine for more than 48 hours.

I’ve shared my bare root planting method in several places, and I’ll copy it here as well.

My Method

1. Soak the rose
After receiving your rose, soak only the roots (not the canes) for 24–48 hours in water with a little Superthrive. Lightly mist the canes.
If you're concerned about disease contamination, you can add a small amount of Fertilome Fire Blight Spray to the soaking water.

2. Prepare the planting hole
Dig a hole at least 18 × 18 inches and pour in about 3 gallons of water.
• If the water drains within 30–40 minutes → drainage is good.
• If it stays → improve drainage with small gravel.

3. Soil mix
Mix native soil with ⅓–½ composted manure or compost.
Add 1 tablespoon of superphosphate.
Water well. No other fertilizer is needed at planting.

4. Prepare the rose
Refresh the roots and trim damaged tips. Remove weak or broken canes.
Coat the roots with mycorrhizae to help faster establishment.

5. Planting
Make a small cone of soil in the hole.
Set the rose on the cone, spread the roots, backfill, and firmly tamp so there are no air pockets. Water deeply again.
Plant the graft at the correct depth for your zone (for us in Zone 6b, about 2–3 inches below soil).

6. "Greenhouse" method (very important)
After planting, cover the rose with a light-colored, non-transparent pot with drainage holes and keep it covered until the first leaves appear.
This creates a mini-greenhouse and protects the rose while it wakes up. Remove the pot when leaves start to show.

Elena, thank you for the detailed info! Usually, I soak for 24 hours. Last year we were expecting torrential rain for days and Palatine said ok to only soak for a few hours so I could plant them that day. I did receive hydrated, excellent plants from them, too.

I soak bare roots for as little as an hour and up to about six hours. i've never lost a bare root rose. Diane

Where can I find the information on how to import Chinese roses? There are many DA like roses in China.

@summersrhythm_z6a

I just google Chinese roses and many come up on Etsy & Chinese Vendor websites. I spoke to USDA on phone directly & learned about Chinese impiorted roses. You can call USDA for futher info. They are nice on the phone and explain well.

Thanks Kitty! I will check it out. 👍

Japanese roses finally available for sale. 1 gallon, own root:

https://www.gracerosefarm.com/products/wabara®-aoi-fuga®-potted-rose-bush?srsltid=AfmBOoqP0V7tXN1rAP2shc5GBKXcqd3RAYmHwtSvHRpOlP9YrJc58x1H

@knightsgambit

Thanks for heads-up.

I see one Aoi Fuga, Wabara, Japanese rose, sold on GRF website, potted $80.00. . It is in a collection called, Passport of Roses.” There are the 3 roses named after Grace & this Japanese rose in the Passport Collection series, and stories written for each rose. Each of the potted 4 roses is $80.00. . Not sure why Grace added her name to the 3 roses?

I read one GRF “rose stories’ in the ” Passport to Roses’ collection of 4 roses & it sounds like the “American Girl doll series stories.”

Have you read any of these rose stories?

I suppose one is to feel nostalgic if they buy a rose with a story. Are these stories fiction? Maybe if Grace offered a ”glass antique doll” w/ the rose & story, I’d oay $80 & give it to my daughter if she was young.

@KittyNY6 I think she added her name in order to create a collection of roses akin to Kordes Parfuma or Meilland Romantica. At least, that is how I’d read into it. Not a bad business idea but not necessary. I haven’t read any of the stories as they are totally fictional and created by AI. It lacks authenticity and originality.

Given the fact all these roses haven’t been bought my members I can only surmise that a good number of people have balked at the price and cost. $80 plus shipping, so $100 is a lot to pay for a one gallon rose, even one as beautiful as Aoi. The pricing is eye wateringly high.

Having said that, the one I would pay that princely sum for is Miyuki. I managed to get 5 stems for $10 from Whole Foods and the myrhh scent is something I still think about, it was that good! (on a sidenote, I am trying to grow myrhh this year)As GRF is the only one legally licensed to potentially sell this plant, they are the only ones I’d buy it from.

@knightsgambit

Yes, I agree. Al stories possibly. Reminds me of stories for children or teens I guess, but not interestingly great literature, to say the least. I skim read one-could not read it all-too generic. Interesting gimicks to attempt selling these roses.

I actually love ”really great roses, with great fragrance, and beautuful shapely blooms.” They don’t need an AI story to sell them.

The great thing about naming a rose is that naturally people will want to know the origin of said name and one can channel that interest to good causes and expanding people’s horizons. Maybe it’s botanical gardens and conservancies, medical or charitable causes, maybe reviving interest in something lost. These are just some naming ideas that come to my mind. Point is there is authenticity in people and things that already exist and you dont have to create a fake story.

Wow, nice feature!

If I put that much "manure" on my garden, I would not be able to see the roses.

I received my 4 bare root roses from Grace Farms yesterday. They are huge!

Francis Meilland, Moonstone, Sheer Elegance, and Veteran’s Honor

Looking great, congrats!

Yes, Kentucky, they look wonderful, and I hope they all grow and bloom well for you. I get a daily mailing from GRF, and it seems like lately they have been promoting classic Austin roses for sale--ones like Brother Cadfael, The Prince, and Mary Rose. What's the news on that? I'm a bit surprised. Diane

I'll help them a bit. Here's The Prince

Brother Cadfael

Diane, my rose buddy, the “ENABLER.”

GRF is selling discontinued Austin's albeit at 3x the cost of nurseries like K&M, a cool $89 for a one gallon. I know K&M can be hard to get a hold of but they should have the Prince, Mary Rose, Brother Cadfael, Evelyn etc. available although I heard they're only going to be selling own root.