I too frequently find myself with material that doesn't quite look like it will make it. I bring them to club meetings, and you would be surprsed after a couple of years what someone shows up with and asks "remmber your tree?"
And the others get planted in the yard. Amazing what four of five years in the ground will do to a tree. Some get a second chance.

Keep reading anything you can buy or get your hands on about bonsai and you will learn what good bonsai "stock" is. I also went thru the same period of thinking everything will make a bonsai. Only 25% of what you have on average will ever make a real bonsai. Give away the rest to people just starting because chances are they will kill it in the first year anyway. If not they have learned something and can then start looking for real material. And the learning continues.

I usually plant out in the yard and contemplate its current/future potential for a few years. Good root and trunk development from growing in the ground can really make a difference.

Dave

Join a bonsai club. Participate in the annual auction. You will find better stock there, as well as be able to sell off the "unwanted" stuff. You are are progressing up the learning curve and seeing what good bonsai stock is. Those not as far along can learn the same thing from your old stock. It's not like you're palming something off on someone. Although not all bonsai material is worth it, everything (short of seeds and seedlings) can teach something to someone.

I suppose these losers would be good practice material, for example, you could have one for wiring practice if you havent been creating bonsai all that long.

I've learned plenty from seeds and seedlings too, Mark. Even though I agree generally with your thoughts on them, the idea that there is nothing to learn from them is a bit shortsighted.
Take care,
zube

Zube,

There is simply very very little to be learned from seeds and seedlings about bonsai, especially by beginners. What they generally learn is that they're wasting their time with them. At least, that's what I learned from them. I also became short sighted using in that I actually believed I was doing bonsai using seeds and spindly trees. I wasn't. I was simply gardening--which is fine but it ain't bonsai.

I believe is is far more shortsighted to encourage people to do bonsai with inadequate, virtually unusable material.

When my kids were in pre-school, they fingerpainted Mark. They don't anymore. But it helped them start to learn about art and, more importantly, making things with their hands and minds. I just see playing with seedlings as part of the natural progression. If nothing else, it should teach one about keeping things alive and well in pots which, although not bonsai, is essential to it. And preferable to buying a 50 year old pine for a first tree and killing it through lack of knowledge. (And I know you're not advocating that.)
Take care,
zube

It'll also show you if youre gren fingered or not....
Part of the business of bonsai culture is a knowledge of horticulture, and how different plants 'work'
You can learn a lot about this from grwoing stuff from seeds-(a lifelong passion of mine-peanuts are fun!)you dont have to call it bonsai of course!

I rest my case...

Mark, I lifted a quote of yours from another thread here. The two are related, and I couldn't bring myself to post on the other thread.

"Uh, no, not exactly. A plant LEFT ALONE IN A POT will sometimes dwarf itself because of stress. In bonsai, the primary mechnism for dwarfing leaves and getting compact growth is by pruning top growth and root growth, not root restriction."

A plant in a pot (I won't say LEFT ALONE, it needs fed and watered) will always dwarf itself from root restriction. It might not dwarf itself in a perfect manner for bonsai, but it will remain small. The roots will fill the container, causing top growth virtually halt. If left alone, the tree will decline further and die. If we remove it and prune the roots, they can once again grow, as can the top. The tree is again happy. Root restriction keeps the tree small. Root pruning allows continued growth. I have 5 white birch seedlings that were dug up after they sprouted 5 years ago. I put them all in a small oval pot about 6" long and 1" deep at that time. They were fed and watered with everything else, but ignored otherwise. I removed them from the pot 2 weeks ago, pruned all the roots (pot was full of course), and arranged the positions and put them back in the same pot. The three largest trees have a caliper of 1/4", the others less. The bark at the base is getting gnarly and irregular. The only real pruning done was 2 years ago. The trees were about 12" tall, I cut them back to half that, causing budding further down the trunk. Some of the trees even produce catkins (not sure if that's the proper term).
Oh, yeah. Almost forgot. No more arguing. It's bad for the peaceful spirit of bonsai. :)
Take care,
zube

Zube,

Huh? Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you boil it down?

I do have some plants that refuse utterly to grow (my poor Cherry of the Rio Grande; I'll have to buy a big one) but I was just curious.
It seemed to me that however good you were there must be some individual plants that just would refuse to become bonsai despite all efforts, and that maybe I'd gotten a few in the past.
I'll happily swap for any in the future, too.

Are you serious Mark, or just kidding me? Not sure, but here goes.
The container is the #1 reason the tree remains small. Restricted root growth = restricted top growth.
When the pot is full of roots they can no longer grow, neither can the top. However, the tree must be allowed to grow, at least minimally, or it will decline and die. Therefore the roots are pruned, allowing renewed growth.
zube

I might add to Zube's list that new soil in that pot(@ the time of re-pot)can be rejuvenating to the plant as well ;-)

Zube,

"The container is the #1 reason the tree remains small. Restricted root growth = restricted top growth.
When the pot is full of roots they can no longer grow, neither can the top. However, the tree must be allowed to grow, at least minimally, or it will decline and die. Therefore the roots are pruned, allowing renewed growth."

I asked the question because if you read what you wrote, you can kinda see it's a little contradictory. The "#1 reeason" for a tree remaining small isn't root restriction. It is root pruning AND root restriction. As you say, a tree left to its own devices in a container--dies. That's hardly bonsai.

The intervention of the bonsaiist to prune and renew the root system (i.e. root pruning AND top pruning) is at least half --probably more--of the bonsai equation...The tree remains small because the bonsaiist stimulates a more compact healthier root system that can function in the container and prunes the top to keep it small and compact also.

Mark, that's why I gave the example of my birch seedlings. Nothing was done to them for five years. Yet they were stunted. All through root restriction. The root pruning that came along later will help them to remain healthy and continue to flourish.
As for your second paragraph, how can two things be #1? Is your favorite color red and blue? Yes, a tree left to it's own devices in a container (or a rock crevice) will eventually die. But it will have been small all it's life for one reason. Root restriction. Whether it is bonsai or not.
As for your third paragraph, second sentence, I would say, "The tree remains small and healthy...". Then I would agree completely.
zube

"Nothing was done to them for five years. Yet they were stunted. All through root restriction.

What does this teach a beginning bonsai student? Leave the tree alone, don't do anything to it and it dwarfs itself? Is that how bonsai is done?

I guess I'm still confused about your point.

I think its important to understand how to grow trees from seed. I am unsure why some people think that when you grow from seed you are lifetimes away from decent material. As some of you have seen my posts, I grow mostly all tridents maples. You have seen some near finished specimens of mine, but I also growth a few hundred tridents from seed on a yearly basis. I root prune them on year 2 and make sure that the angle and size of the roots are all in check. and the tap root has been removed. I learned so much from growing tridents from seed, and continue to learn. If you live in a zone 7 area, and you grow a trident from seed, that would easily have a 4-5 inch trunk in 5 years....thats pretty good.

I see this happening more and more in the U.S., but we need to focus on getting good stock to start with. Too often do nurseries grow thousands and thousands of seedlings and just put them in the ground, get a big trunk and sell them. Never caring about large tap roots, inverse tapers, major problems.
I rememeber an article in bonsai today where a U.S. nursery man took his mikawa black pine seedlings and cut all the roots off them after the first year, then worked on a radial nebari for the following few years. Thats why when you I visit Kokofu-en I see so many huge root spreads!

Growing bonsai from seeds and seedling is SOOOO important for the future of bonsai in American..in my opinion. We need to prevent or correct problems early, rather then spend years on a mature stock trying to re-correct what was done wrong.

Just a little rambling of mine.....

Matt Ouwinga

Matt, you cover alot of ground.

However, you say to get good stock, you have to produce good seedlings. That's the point in telling BEGINNERS to avoid using seed. You do not get good stock trees from badly used seeds and seedlings. You get bad stock that needs correcting.

The issue is not really seeds or seedlings, as much as it is knowing how to grow them out for bonsai. Sure both offer a great way to get future bonsai, but that promise relies on an experienced hand at their beginning.

The basics of producing "decent" seedling stock are far beyond the typical beginner.

I agree we need to grow better stock, but saying seeds offer a productive way for a beginner to produce a bonsai will likely result in worse material being produced, not better.

I have to agree with Mark... I am too old to wait for seeds to grow (and I'm not even 50!) Give me a mature tree to work with, 'no more sticks in pots', that's my motto! I would say, if you have a youngster Wags

Hi Mark,
My only point was that 'root restriction is the #1 reason a tree remains small'. Somewhere in another post I thought you made a statement contrary to this. That's all. It is the mechanical basis of bonsai. Period. If this is all you ever learn, will you be a bonsai artist? Of course not, far from it. But it still is the starting point of bonsai. Everything else flows from here, the considerations being the health of the tree, followed be the manipulation of the growth of the tree to express the vision of the owner.
zube

"What does this teach a beginning bonsai student? Leave the tree alone, don't do anything to it and it dwarfs itself?"

Seems basic enough. I'll say, "Yes."

"Is that how bonsai is done?"

No. That's only how it starts.

But only God can make a tree*

HA! I don't do bonsai. I can't bear to trim roots or branches (except to make cuttings). I wuz just asking...honest!

And if anybody has an ugly offshape Toyo Nishiki for some micro rose cuttings, drop me a line.

But Zube, root restriction ISN'T the primary reason a bonsai stays small. PRUNING and active cultivation by the bonsaiist is.

My point is that root restriction is indeed a factor--but only because we're working to keep the plant in a container. The pot plays a role, but it's largely a passive one and hardly the most important in the life of a bonsai. Bonsai are constantly pruned top and bottom to keep them compact and healthy.

We don't want compacted roots that dwarf growth, as you point out. We root prune to produce a more compact, more effective working root system that can more ably sustain a plant in the container.

Same for top growth. We don't rely on a compacted root systems to dwarf top growth. We rely on the constantly-renewed compact, unimpeded root system to produce alot of top growth that is managed not by the pot, but by the bonsaiist.

Zube,

Mark is right on this one again to my mind. Trying to stunt growth by root restriction and create some sort of 'natural' bonsai is not the answer. The roots need to be extremely efficient to live in the confines of a pot; and good soil, good watering, and root pruning achievies this end. Correct top pruning and wiring creates the bonsai shape we desire.

Regards,

Fish.

Mark & Fish, I respect your opinions more than you know. I also realize that you both know more about bonsai than I. Yet I still disagree. Fish, I'm not trying to do anything different, merely saying what I believe happens. And I agree that "Correct top pruning and wiring creates the bonsai shape we desire." That's exactly what I meant when I said, "followed by the manipulation of the growth of the tree to express the vision of the owner." But the container still is the main reason the tree remains small. (Please note: I only said 'small'. Not attractive or properly branched/ramified. Not good nebari. Not even necessarily in good health. No other magical attributes. Only small.)
My best bonsai is a nine-tree group of Japanese larch that I purchased one year ago. The pot is 18x12x2". The biggest tree is about 18" tall, caliper ranges from 3/8" to 5/8". The trees are 12-15 years old. I pinched/pruned them back twice last summer after repotting them in the early spring. If these same trees were planted in the ground in a good growing bed, they would bolt up to three feet high in a single season. Pinch and prune all you like. The trees will still grow at a vastly accelerated rate. The container is no longer holding them back. Cut them clear down to the original 18" tall if you like. But the caliper will have increased, the taper will have been lost, and the trunks will begin to look like broom handles. All because the container is gone and the trees can grow unrestricted.
I'm not advocating that people put their trees in small pots and do nothing else. That would be misleading, and if it seemed that way in any previous post, I apologize. But I am saying that the container is the basis of bonsai. The mere act of putting a tree in a container alters it's growing condition dramatically. It is the key. What we do after that is what the bulk of bonsai is about. But being in the container enables everything from that point on.
Respectfully,
zube

"But the container still is the main reason the tree remains small. (Please note: I only said 'small'."

This is just plain false. A tree in a container will grow until it can't--same for a tree in the ground. Adn for what it's worth, containerized plants DON'T remain "small." Root bound plants can get very large--depsite small pots. Look at the Ficus at your local mall, or at you local nursery. Landscape elms can be 20 feet tall in a 20 gallon container or larger. They are in pots and they are large. Unrestrained, plants in such containers will grow and grow and grow--until they can't. Hopefully, bonsaiist repot long before the root ball constricts itself to the point of stress. The goal IS NOT for a congested, self dwarfing root ball. It is for, essentially, a "normally" functioning root system that fits in a container.

"If these same trees were planted in the ground in a good growing bed, they would bolt up to three feet high in a single season. Pinch and prune all you like...The trees will still grow at a vastly accelerated rate. The container is no longer holding them back."

That's just false again. Depends on how MUCH you pinch and prune an in ground plant. The grower can certainly hold them back, just as in a bonsai container. This is done regularly for many cultivated trees, from espaliated apples growing against a wall, to the average Christmas tree farm at "shearing season"--when the plants are sheared back to small conical form, rather than letting them get "normal" pine shapes. In all of this, it's the human being doing the "dwarfing" not the pot/ground whatever.

Bonsai are small because they are constantly cut back top and bottom by the bonsaiist--not by the pot. The size of the pot is a relative. Sure it's a factor, but it's far from the primary one.

I don't have any 20 gallon bonsai pots Mark. Why didn't you say 50 gallon? Or 100? Or perhaps a container the size of a house would better illustrate your point.
I have also repeatedly said that I am not advocating a congested, rootbound tree.

You say, "That's just false again. Depends on how MUCH you pinch and prune an in ground plant. The grower can certainly hold them back, just as in a bonsai container."

Of course the grower can hold them back. But he is now working 'overtime', much more than before, to do what the container was previously doing.
zube

"I have also repeatedly said that I am not advocating a congested, rootbound tree."

If you're not advocating it, you're certainly saying it is the primary factor in bonsai. As far as I can tell the only root ball that constricts and dwarfs top growth is a severly congested one. If it's not congested and it functions well, it doesn't "dwarf" anything.

"But he is now working 'overtime', much more than before, to do what the container was previously doing"

Well, no that's not true. If I plant a sapling pine in the ground and one in a bonsai pot and pruned them both agressively--, I'd bet there would be very little difference between the two in a year, two years, or three. If I kept nipping back new growth agressively, I could keep the inground plant as small as the one in the pot, regardless of its root ball size. That's how "garden pines" in Japan are groomed...and how Christmas trees are kept in shape while they're being grown for market. Shearing is simply a quicker way to remove new growth on an in ground pine. I could spend hours picking out the candles on such trees, it would have much the same effect.

Your assumption that the pot is the most germane part of bonsai cultivation is akin to the old myth that a bonsai's roots are grown inside a grapefruit peel, with all roots straying outside being trimmed off. Bonsai is not a simple reaction to a container by a plant. It is a function of a person aggressively reducing the tree, not a passive function of a pot.

Please conduct the experiment that you outline Mark. I believe you'll be surprised at the results. Better yet, put one tree in a very small pot, one in a gallon can, and one in the ground.
As far as Christmas trees go, Oregon and Washington produce more than anywhere else. You can't tell me anything about them that I don't already know.

You state above, "As far as I can tell the only root ball that constricts and dwarfs top growth is a severly congested one. If it's not congested and it functions well, it doesn't "dwarf" anything."
That's completely untrue. A tree begins to react to the container that it's in long before the roots reach the bounds of the pot. I need to find the source of my last statement. I don't recall offhand, and I'm sure you'll 'call me' on it.
Later,
zube

"I believe you'll be surprised at the results. Better yet, put one tree in a very small pot, one in a gallon can, and one in the ground."

I have conducted such an "experiment," although it's hardly scientific. I have grown all kinds of material in small, medium and large containers, as well as in the ground. I have noticed that growth rates depends alot on species and location, as well as the care I give the tree. Some trees decline and die in the ground while others put on phenomenal growth in relatively tiny containers.The point being, there are factors much more important than the container in growing bonsai.

"As far as Christmas trees go, Oregon and Washington produce more than anywhere else. You can't tell me anything about them that I don't already know."

OK. Then why aren't all those trees 50 foot scots pines, 40 foot spruce, etc. in those fields. They are growing in the ground, with unlimited root room...yet someone is cutting the tops back severly on a regular basis--which is a familiar bonsai practice also. I never saw a bonsai pot at my old neighbor's Christmas tree farm...

The Christmas trees (Douglas and noble fir here) grow as they do for exactly the reasons you point out Mark. They are shorn on a regular basis. Were they not, however, they wouldn't be anywhere near 40-50 tall at ten years of age. On the other hand, had they been planted in gallon containers as seedlings, at ten years they would still be small enough to place on your coffee table. I would estimate about 2' tall with a trunk caliper of 1½". This size and shape could have been very easily attained with a minimum of pruning. And a container.
zube