#1

randy

Thanks for your response Randy. That was my first choice as well.

Norm

As cotyledons (first leaves) open, they need no help in shedding seed coats, so I doubt it is reason #1. They shed them w/o assistance in nature every day. If you are noticing what appears to be stem constriction at the transition between stem & roots, I would suspect Pythium or Phytophthora fungal issues. Perhaps I misread your post?

If there was sufficient moisture for seeds to germinate, it wasn't #2. I can't speak to reason #3, but I doubt it also as nature has a way of weeding out species with reproductive problems.

What medium did you start seeds in? If it's a fungal problem, it's likely it was present in the medium you planted in.

Al

Mmm. Wonder what caused pine seed last year in one bulb pan to retain more seed coats where the same seed planted slightly deeper in another bulb pan did not? Probably that reproductive problem thing.

randy

When samaras fall from maple trees, there's usually no one around to plant them - pine seeds either, now that I think about it, unless you count the chipmunks & other critters that wrestle them below ground. Point is, 99.9% of seeds that germinate do so at the soil surface w/o the luxury of being planted. They all seem to shed seed coats at the time of cotyledon emergence.

Al

Al:

My mix consisted of Turface fines, (minus the dust which was discarded), organic fines, some of which came from pine bark and some of which was humus from a thoroughly rotted oak stump, and perlite. So if there is a fungal problem it obviously came from my organic component, however I have my doubts.

Later on the morning of the fifth I carefully removed the seed coats from the seedlings, a tedious process indeed. Two days later, despite this rough treatment, most seem to be recovering nicely. Perhaps I just was over anxious and the plants would have been OK on their own. It will be interesting to note what becomes of the seeds that had not already germinated and were planted somewhat deeper. At any rate thanks for your interest.

Norm

Norm,

Temperture, moisture, depth, parent vigor, and length of stratification can all be factors. While there are ideal depths for different species, Randy is incorrect, the deeper planting put the seeds in a moister environment because of the surface drying more quickly.

My propagation class just did a demostration with corn at the surface, 1" deep, 3" deep and 5" deep, the germination rates were similar. It just took a lot longer for the deepest to surface. This put them way behind, more than a week!

Good luck,
Vernon

Hi Vernan

IÂm not sure how an observation can be wrong, but thatÂs neither here nor there.

I can only speak to my observation. The pine seed on the left was sown at about ¼" or less. The pine seed sown on the right was at about ½". The seed on the left (2nd photo) on a whole has more seed coats still attached and are taller than the ones on the right 3rd photo).
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IÂm not sure how similar pine is to maples, but itÂs probably much closer than maples to corn.

PS: IÂm not a rocket scientist and donÂt play one on tv, just a common sense kind of guy.

randy

Randy,

It's just a moisture thing. Thanks for the pictures and the mildness of your reply. I was a little full of myself that night.

Vernon

Hi Vernon

I agree it's just a moisture thing. Because of that need for moisture, my intial answer was correct. He had them planted too shallow.

randy

By way of an update, several of the seeds that had not prematurely germinated are up now and are indeed faring better than the ones that had germinated in storage.

Randy, perhaps you misinterpreted my initial post, as you now seem to be taking a position closer to the second possibility. The time spent in cold storage provided enough moisture to initiate germination, but not enough to sufficiently soften the seed coat. Not a criticism, just an observation.

So it seems that no one thinks that the proximity to the surface of the emerging plants had any bearing on this situation beyond the lack of moisture imparted to the seed coat. Al made an interesting, if obvious, observation that no one plants seeds in nature. You canÂt argue with logic like that. Thanks everyone for your input.

Norm