Obviously that should be waste land.

Does the lasagna method work as well in California as in the 'real world'? (I checked the Tools forum and it looks like the person is from Ca....?) I used that method in two places but otherwise hand-removed all grass and weeds as we built the garden here. You certainly get to know your soil conditions if you do it that way! 'Cliche back yard' - what's wrong with that as a starting point? If the person is not (yet) a gardener, lawn and flowers are undoubtedly more attractive than a weedy wasteland - and maybe that will encourage him/her to cultivate an interest in gardening and lead him/her on to greater things :-)

Did I say there was anything wrong with it in my HYPOTHESIS woody? In fact if you read what I wrote without looking for fault you might realise something. In the meantime I am gone, sorry, once upon a time I dealt with a lot of crap on this forum but no more.

Ink, you're coming across as a little testy these days.....is the winter getting to ya? Chill, man :-)

Timing would be a key factor, IMO. Not exactly an ideal time of year now for the RoundUp mode of action, but at the appropriate time of year, that would be a lot faster than a layered or lasagne approach. I don't have as many issues with tilling in an ornamental/landscape situation than others might (it tends to be a one time thing), but I don't consider it a very efficient way of dealing with weeds, especially perennial ones. Seems like all tilling accomplishes with persistant weeds is to spread them around/break up the roots or bring dormant seeds to the surface.

Personally, I'd go with the RoundUp if the timing was conducive.

Lasagna is just compost pile as mulch or mulch sandwich. I'd just go with the mulching and skip the unnatural and unnecessary layering. If I had an assortment of organic litter I wanted to process I would just spread it over the ground as it presented itself, rather than bothering with organizing it into a layer of this and then a layer of that, then another layer of this...

DB signed on his house week before his wedding, we all went over to work on it (4 of us) Back yard was weeds almost as tall as I was. We soaked it down & pulled them all out &swept the ground with old long broom to get most of seeds up, put 30 day weed killer on it & he bricked in larger area & put in fruit trees on 1 side(big & delicious)apricots, peaches, plums & apples. Last fall, I put roundup on some summer grass & now its dead & I'm going to have to dig it out & reseed or get a piece from the nursery. I don't do well around straw or browned dead weeds,should have dug them out & reseeded, if would be nice by now.

Dual approach: For the shrub area -Round up and plant after the round up has biodegraded. The dead weeds can be removed or cut down and buried under mulch.

To get rid of the weeds over the large grass area, round-up is easy and not labor intensive or $ and won't bring up buried weed seeds, but planting grass seed in the remnants would require scratching the surface by some means unless plugs are planted.

Strip it off with a front end loader and bring in screened loam on the same day. Done.
No spraying, no screwing around with a rottotiller on tennis ball sized rocks, no waiting, no stirring up weed seeds from below, and no more rocks on the surface makes a lot more sense than either just rototilling or just spraying.
If you spray or rototill you are only doing part of the job. You still have to remove the rocks and debris.
Has anyone seen established landscape companies use either of the two (or lasagna) as a normal practice? I sure have not.

Laag's approach is definitely the way a commercial landscaper would operate in the interests of getting fastest results for the least money in the shortest time, but is typically not going to be an approach that a budget conscious homeowner who doesn't have a clue would operate.

The solution is also going to vary based on the climate and soil types of the area in question. You'd have to experience a California dry season of 6 months or more, know our typical clay soils that bake to become hardpan, and have some experience with some of the worst perennial weeds here to know the futility of recommending a rototiller to cultivate this adequately without soaking it in advance and waiting until the moisture content is suitable.

As well, the lasagna method is still not going to give a complete kill if you are dealing with vicious weeds such as Wild Bindweed, Himalayan Blackberry, Algerian Ivy, etc. These will root right through a heavy mulch, and all also have very long lived seeds that once re-exposed to light will quickly germinate again.

I'd suggest a middle approach: This assumes that work is being done April thru October here in northern California. If there are visible perennial weeds such as Bermuda Grass, Bindweed, Blackberry, Ivy, etc, water for a week at least an hour or so, to encourage fresh active growth. Spray extra strength Roundup as directed, on a warm windless day, with no rain expected for 24 hours. Weed whack the site and haul off all dead vegetation after waiting a week. Rake soil surface to expose additional weed seeds. Irrigate every other day for at least an hour for a week, wait another week,(or more if the weed seeds are taking longer to grow), and reapply Roundup. Wait another 10 days, hoe off dead weeds. Lightly rake the soil, perhaps using a steel grading rake to remove stones from surface. Repeat watering as above for another week. Reapply Roundup as necessary after weed seeds gave germinated again and have at least 2/3 sets if true leaves. Hoe off weeds.

This is what I recommend for clients who don't want to scrape off the crap soil and replace with new screened loam. As can be seen, it is both time intensive and requires repeated manual labor. Imminently doable by a DIY homeowner, but it will cost to pay the labor to do it. In my experience with California clay and typical California weeds, it is the only way to keep pernicious weeds such as Bermuda grass from taking over after the garden is planted.

Also based on California conditions, tight budgets and no time to wait, I've also had to simply bring in new top soil or compost, rototill, put down weed fabric and slit open for new plantings, add drip irrigation lines above weed fabric, and mulch heavily. All of this was done after spending an entire day trying to dig out worst clumps of Bermuda grass and all its roots, to reduce the amount that would regrow. This method also worked well enough, but has require constant vigilance on a monthly basis for the first 2 years to spot treat the Bermuda grass as it returned.

I know that scraping away soil and replacing with better is not exactly sustainable or a permaculture type approach, but it is the most pragmatic with a short timeline and least amount of hand labor. On the other hand, rocks and gravel in planting beds are not the end of the world, and adding loamy soil and blending in to a lawn area, with the exposed rocks raked away will work well enough in California conditions where frost heave is seldom a concern, and rocks below the surface won't typically get re-exposed and dangerous around a power lawn mower unless rain caused erosion is a factor.

Bottom line: No one best way, solutions are often specific to local conditions, and everyone has to decide for themselves the parameters that are most important in their approach.

I don't have a front end loader - but thats generally the way I would do it laag - just by hand. I dont think roundup is an effective method of preparing a bed as it just leaves the dead weeds in place which you have to dig up anyway. Tilling just spreads the weeds. IMO there is no shortcut around the hard work of digging out the weeds and amending the soil. Any other method comes up short or creates more work later on.

This is really the biggest mistake home owners make. Getting the soil right is 90% of the job. Nothing will be successful without good rich well prepared soil.

As Bahia has well described the options it comes down to what you value the most:

Time
Money
Labor
Not importing other soils
Rocks or lack thereof
Not using pesticides

Pick your poison (maybe not the best term). Renting a skidsteer for the day (or hiring a local small contractor) and getting 30 yards of loam delivered is not going to require a second mortgage, but I understand that different people value different things to a different extent. It is ready in a day with most of the problems solved.

Little time, little or no labor on the homeowner, no rocks on the surface, no stubble, no pesticides, but a bill for between $1,000 and $2,500 and imported soil. My personal values would go this route.

I don't see how anyone is going to tackle the rock problem with hand tools or a rototiller without importing the soil. The biggest risk, from my point of view, is to labor feverishly, invest time in long term attempts to kill out the weeds, without having full confidence in a result that will be worth it. It would be highly unlikely that the rock problem will go away without either covering that surface with soil or removing and replacing it with soil. You still have to pay for soil and delivery (at least $600 in my area) then you have to spread it. That's about 250 wheel barrow trips for 4" with a lot of raking in between. If you rent or hire a skidsteer to do that, you might as well have it scrape away the junk and do the whole job (scrape out the weeds and rocks and haul it away) in one day without all the other hassle and waiting.

That is just based on my personal values, not THE right answer.

Andrew, I came back only to bow, you probably can't see it but...

Why employ someone with experience? Because they know that it doesn't matter where you live, the soil conditions I described are not conducive with the aim for the area. So what to do? You either work the gardens design around existing conditions or you bring in material to change it to a fixed idea (the cliche garden woody).

Thank you Andrew and your English mother.

I apologize - I read the original post and follow ups quickly and replied without reviewing the thread. I think I was thrown off by an angry undercurrent. But I missed the 50x50 thing in the OP -difficult to do by hand!! of course one would have to do something about the 25+ yards of loam and the size of the area. But still don't think roundup or lasagna is the way to go. Sorry for my mistake.

I wonder, if a homeowner is really preparing a 50x50 garden/landscape area, and reluctant to spend the money to prepare it properly, how will they feel about the cost of maintaining the area?

Some things to consider.

Using a skid steer to remove a few inches of soil, will not remove some of the worst perennial weeds. I would spray roundup, even if I used this technique.

Clay. It depends a lot on what kind of clay. Pure clay - I would remove it. Clay loam - I can live with it.

As for rocks - I guess it depends on the number of rocks. If there are lots of rocks, it makes sense to remove the top layer.

If there are a few rocks - you can do it by hand.

My soil is clay, and have a fair number of rocks, everything from pea size to boulders I can't move by hand. I have cleared a lot more than 50 x 50 in the last few years - probably an acre so far. I spray Roundup, and then start plating, leaving the soil between the planting holes as is. This is a good approach for the planting beds. Works especially well for shrubs and larger perennials where most of the ground does not have to be dug up.

For grass, either seed or rolls, it is a bit more difficult to get a good flat ground.

My second post was one of those that seems to have gone missing as has happened to a lot op people's posts lately... In it, amongst other things, I said - Ink - no crap was intended!

The 'strip it and replace with better soil' using skid-steer would certainly be the fast and easy way! All the prep. on this extensively gardened 1/4 acre lot has been done by us by hand - and my guess is that it would not fit the definition of 'prepare it properly' but, combined with planting suitable things, it produces a thriving garden. The main cost of maintenance is our time and energy. When I look around our neighbourhood I think it's how much of their time and energy the homeowners are willing to invest in preparing and maintaining their garden that makes the biggest difference in how well the landscape looks.

I have tried the lasagna thing in two places - actually it was more like making leaf mold with compost dressing :-) While it produced good soil and the plants are happy in it, it was too slow. I prefer to remove (by hand) the grass and compost it, then add a top dressing mix from a local supplier and plant into that. Bahia - I know little about California conditions but I figured lasagna might not work as well there for various reasons of climate and soil. Lasagna sure seems to be the most commonly recommended 'easy' cure-all bed preparation method on a number of GW forums though, which is why I mentioned it.

Don't forget that with constant mowing (2x weekly in New England anyway) that not many weeds will survive the constant coppicing from a mowed lawn. Fertilizer will also aid in growing grass if the media is lacking nutrients. Obviously it will take longer for a nice lawn to be established but the average homeowner isn't starring on a landscape makeover show with the need for results by the end of the 30 minute show. In the shrub bed, more weed whacker and mulch. The tougher weeds may take advantage of the less frequent attention, but these can be cut back. If you're "blessed" with Jap. Knotweed, then that's a different story. Even a surface scrape won't take those out.

OK...no fair!! The original post involved a discussion of which was best to clear out the weedy patch -- using RoundUp or rototilling. Nowhere in this was the option of using semi-heavy machinery and importing soil, which of course is the fastest, most efficient, if also the most expensive method.

But given the choices as outlined in the initial brief, I'd still go the RoundUp route rather than tilling. Tilling may very well be required to loosen the soil for planting after the Roundup has done its work but it won't address the weed situation appropriately on its own. Lasagna gardening, while it may have its uses, is not practical for this large an area plus it takes too much time to convert into a plantable area.

"how do I prepare this piece of land for lawn surrounded by flower beds?" was the question gg. The tennis ball sized rocks in clay could wreck a tiller and Roundup only brings you back to the clay soil with tennis ball sized rocks in it!

Forget not the raised bed (for the flowers). Otherwise it sounds like a job for Phil Dirt and the Dozers.

As for the weeds that "infest" Watusi Land, a sage has said that there are no bad plants, only bad uses for good plants*.

*Of course this is an idiotic philosophy, but it makes you feel better if thistles and couch grass are all that you have to keep your tennis ball-sized rocks company.size>

Here is a link that might be useful: Phil Dirt and the Dozers

Yes, definitely go for the heavy artillery. Fast, efficient, reasonable cost, money well spent. It would take a few years to do this with roundup. No, I take that back, it would never get done with roundup.

Before:
{{gwi:7297}}

During:
{{gwi:7298}}
{{gwi:7299}}

A little bit after, but a very long way from done:
{{gwi:7301}}

Kim,
Are these the first palm plantings on your Big Island property?

Too bad flame throwers aren't a potential/safe tool to use with some of these heavy duty clearing jobs, it sure would be easier to burn it all away if it were safer to use fire.

I have cleared gardens that were completely overgrown with 8 foot tall dense Himalayan Blackberries, but it was only a 20' by 20' space, and it wasn't easy. Keeping this weed out after wards is much easier since I put down weed fabric, but still requires monthly vigilance to keep on top of resprouting blackberry, and I know the dormant seeds are still all there just waiting their chance.

Still, it could be worse, like Equisetem hymenale, which even Roundup doesn't really kill, or lowly Oxalis pes-caprae. In Hawaii, it is more likely escaped garden introductions that people have trouble keeping alive here on the mainland.

Random thought as I read all the posts:

1. I would feel it wasn't MINE if I hired someone to come and clear it.

2. Are you allowed to water that much in California? To make the ground soft enough to pull weeds?

3. Stones the size of tennis balls are light enough to pick up and through in a wheel barrow. There ought to be something you could use them for.

4. I kept looking and looking for the snarky comment in Woodyoaks first post and couldn't find it.

5. Oh my Phil Dirt and the Dozers. Haven't heard them for years now. They use to play at the summer Friday night concerts on the town square.

Ink - apologies for the inter-thread conversation here -
David - Yes, those are my very first plantings. Managed to put in 3 Clinostigma samoense and 3 Areca vestiaria 'maroon'. I had so much fun it should have been illegal. I still have another 1/4 acre to hand clear behind the area cleared by the backhoe, and another 1/4 acre toward the front and side of the house. Email me if you'd like more details.

tibs - If I could operate a backhoe, I'd have done it myself, but I don't have the skillz - hiring a pro to take my direction for 2 hours doesn't make it feel any less mine -- my 2 cents, and respecting your opinion at the same time.

Phil Dirt and the Dozers -- great name for a band! Love it.

It is like painting a house. You can put paint right over what is there (no problem unless it needs to be scraped). You can scrape it and paint it (no problem if there is no rot). You can replace the rotted wood, scrape tthe rest, and paint it all (no problem unless there is a problem with the roof that is allowing the water behind the siding). This can go on and on. Where it gets to the point that the DIYer can't handle it is the point where it makes sense to hire someone.

This is exactly the same. How far do you want to go to take care of the problems vs. how far are you capable of going. Sometimes these things are cosmetic and sometimes these things have deeper implications.

Can you spray it, mow it, pickaxe through the rocks and plant (light scrape and a top coat of paint)? Yes. Is it the same thing as having a 2500 square foot area prepared for planting? No. Granted, you'll still have to pickaxe the holes for larger plants, but the rot is fixed, its been scraped, and is ready for paint that will stick.

Kim,
Don't you just love the fact that over there you don't usually have to worry about new plantings dying from lack of water? On the other hand, I am guessing that it could all be overgrown again in less than a year's time, if someone or yourself isn't keeping up with the regrowth?

Tibs brings up a valid point, that soaking the ground for an hour at a time is necessary to penetrate very dry clay soils, but not so much for pulling weeds, but to get it soft enough to rototill. A 15 minute wetting down may be all that is necessary to get weed seeds to germinate, but in a garden with deep rooted shrubs, or trying to get your shrubs to be deep rooted, it is necessary to water for 20 to 40 minutes or more to get the soil wet more than just a few inches deep. In some parts of southern California there are current water restrictions on days you can water, but as far as I know, it is still at the point that a limit on water quantity allowed is more a matter of budget than legal prohibitions. That changes when water rationing is declared. As most water for much of southern California comes from the Colorado River or northern California, the actual rainfall that falls in s. Calif. is a plus for the gardener, but doesn't usually add to the total water supply

The point about limited water availability does also speak to the point of about whether such a lawn and flower beds in the traditional East Coast sense should be the approach taken. Aside from the best way to tackle the preparation prior to planting, the design approach, selection for more drought tolerant and native soil tolerant plantings, and drip irrigation and heavy mulching would be the way I'd approach this garden if I were consulting on it. Surface rock is really no detriment to growing plants, and is more of an aesthetic issue. If you are trying to grow root crops in a vegetable garden, it makes sense to either create raised beds or berms with new loamy soil. If you design the new garden with appropriate plants that may even prefer a leaner, rockier soil, it doesn't have to be a problem.

Sometimes it makes more sense to ask the right questions and get the owner's feedback. I'm willing to bet that the owner never thought about alternatives to creating a typical lawn/flowerbed design, or the potential to work with the existing conditions rather than against them.

Once again can I say that, as interesting as the California specific answers are the hypothesis was none specific "I will say more about the zone and plant selection if you want", nobody asked so I didn't say.

Kim's photo essay is extremely helpful because it demonstrates how useless a generalized answer to the question is and David reworks my earlier suggestion that "you either work the gardens design around existing conditions or you bring in material to change it to a fixed idea."

Since the argument I referred to initially did seem to offer either a tiller or Roundup as the definitive answer I can only offer Kim's pictures as proof of that folly.

Kim I can not over recommend, strongly suggest and highly encourage, maybe even demand that you hook yourself up with any and all local tree trimmers in the area who use chippers. Make a place where they can dump loads of wood chips if need be when you are not there. Put down a minimum of 6 inches thick of wood chip mulch in all your new beds. Where you are, looks like the rainy Puna district, you could do an 8 to 10 inch thick layer of tree trimmer's wood chip mulch thinning it a little as you get close to the crowns of your new plantings.

A thick and I mean thick layer of wood chip mulch will save you massive hours of weeding and aggravation. Plus in that thin lava rock soil, the decomposition will actually build a soil over time. A ten inch thick layer will be gone in about one year. Just keep piling it on when it thins or disappears until the plants you want cover the ground enough to slow the weeds. Good coverage only slow thems.

Now so this does not come off as a total hijack, this would be exactly the method I would use in the 50x50 weed infested, clay and tennis ball sized rock soil to create the beds in the cliche back yard in Ink's hypothetical Watse Land. I would use good soil to cover the lawn area. First spray glyphosate to kill weeds. Cover bed area with thick layer of tree trimmer's wood chip mulch and plant. Cover lawn area with soil and seed or plant.

This wood chip mulch is what I am using in my vegetable garden in North Carolina. No weeds, no watering, no fuss.

amili

Thank you amili, excellent suggestion. Nice to know you are out there.

Other out of box solutions:

1) Bring in more clay to use as a liner for a pond feature instead of a shrub border....

2) Hardscaping with your shrub border in pots

3) Astroturf (no mowing required)

4) border plants and groundcovers adapted to grow in clay soils whatever zone this is.

5) Bring in more rock for a Xeriscape rock garden/rock mulch

Ink,

While you may not have made specific reference in this post to where the project was located, you did refer to the OP's post on the Tools Forum, so I referenced my comments to the specifics of that location. I don't think a generic response is really useful when conditions, climate, soils and seasonal workability all factor so heavily into the best solution.

Kim's preferred solution also had to factor in the hardened lava flows as her existing soil condition, and the fact that tropical rainfall and temperatures encourage such rampant growth of untended land on the Big Island that weed removal by hand is almost futile, especially if you aren't there full time to keep up with it. When you might want to use dynamite to create planting pits for your new property's plantings, this isn't something you would generalize about as to the best approach. On a lesser scale, the same principle applies elsewhere...

The rocks have to go out to avoid mower damage.

I think it would be remiss not to add some discussion on the horticultural impacts of creating a clay bath tub for any imported soil (not properly draining) and of the controversery of creating combining two distint lithologic layers with different vertical water transmissivities. The whole circling root issue of being in a loam filled clay bath tub and all.