One not so exotic 5' Blue Princess Holly would cost over $500 installed up here. It is not how many square feet that matter. It is what goes in those square feet. A bread box is bigger than a jewelry box.

If you tell us what they proposing to give you for that money rather than the size of the area that it is going in, there would be some slight hint as to the value of it.

Really, the value comes from you. No matter what the material costs and what the labor rates are in your area, it comes down to whether you value the project as much as it will cost you to have it done. Only you know that answer.

Pricing in landscape work is all over the place. One company may charge half of what another might. Sometimes that is because there is enough people who value having the more expensive company do their work for one reason or another. Sometimes one company gives you less in either materials, craftsmanship, or something else either because they don't understand the value of those things or to be able to be price competitive to get work.

Get more estimates from reputable contractors to see if your first price is competitive.

It's not just plants, either. Are we talking pavers,stone, brick? A stone retaining wall can cost significantly more to build than the same sized wall made of cinder blocks or keystones. Beautiful flagstone patios are more expensive than pavers....

You get the idea!

No pavers. Nothing that I would consider fancy or expensive. No fountains. Just pea gravel and riverrock and mulch. Three bamboo plants (purchased small) and ferns. And a pair of crape myrtles. There is not a whole lot of plant material because I wanted to keep the design very simple. Over an area of approximately 200 sf. I just want to say that I am not at all against the LD making a decent wage for the work. I just have no frame of reference for the price because I have never had this kind of work done before.

Materials and labor add up faster than you might think. My clients who have never had any professional landscape work done are often rather startled by the costs. Even someone like myself - used to working with and selling the plants - can be surprised at how fast the tab climbs when I am just selecting a group of new plants (not annuals) for my own container plantings.

Did your landscaper provide you with a detailed estimate with the costs broken down? Did the quote include the cost of the design?

No, I did not get a breakdown of costs. Just a lump sum. I paid for the design already.

Jerzeegirl ... i understand the "sticker shock" full well. Personally, i think you have to look at what materials and services you're paying for, compare it to what it would cost to do it yourself (your time and effort are worth something too!), and decide accordingly.

Although i don't know the details of your situation other than what you've posted here, that amount doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Here's something I learned from a landscaping experience some years ago. Pay attention to how they are creating the garden areas, or beds, or whatever, in terms of soil mix.
I paid what seemed like a lot once to get some additional garden bed area created , some shrubs planted. It was all pretty ho-hum in retrospect, but speaks to the costs of labor.

However, the biggest mistake I made was that because at that time I did not really know anything about garden soil, its makeup and need for revitalizing, so I did not see what would eventuate when they were installing fairly poor topsoil & then bark nugget mulch, and not a good garden mix.

Over time as I became more interested in gardening, I realized I couldn't just putter around in these beds, because the soil was so poor. So to improve it would take either re-digging the whole beds, or topdressing with lots of compost over time, or both.

This may be starting to ramble, but I was speaking to whether you are getting mostly some hardscape and a few stylized plantings, or perhaps looking for a good foundation in which you might continue to garden over time.

To find out if the price is reasonable, you have two options: 1) contact another contractor for an estimate on the same design and materials; and 2) price out the materials yourself.

If you choose option 2, you'll need to know exactly what materials the contractor would use including things you may not "see," such as weed fabric, hardware cloth, a concrete surround for the bamboo (which you'll need for any running bamboo), irrigation, wiring, compost, etc.

The items you've mentioned (pea gravel, river rock, bamboo, ferns) can vary widely in price, so it's important to know exactly what materials you want and are willing to pay for.

Once you have your complete list of materials, double the total price and see how that figure compares to the $3000 price you've been given. If it's much lower, and you have the equipment and physical ability to DIY, then you may want to do the work yourself.

If you need help estimating quantities, refer to the article linked below (which I wrote, BTW). :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden Math

What I was getting at, perhaps not very well, was that in most cases I now think you do need to have detailed information on the materials and process being used, and some ability to judge whether they are taking the "right" approach, in order to know whether you are getting a "good" job done and also in order to know how to compare another bid. I guess it is sometime possible to hire someone who just by reputation does everything "right", but that's not been my experience.

That speaks to the point of one's needing to know something about landscape and gardening in order to make good decisions in hiring someone to do it, much as one might have to research getting siding for house, buying a new car, etc. Not to mean that one would have to be the expert oneself--but have some idea. Or, live & learn.

So, I might first focus on WHAT is being done, why, how (workmanship, durability, aesthetics), how that fits what you're trying to accomplish, does it solve the problem, create the beauty, etc--because that has to be satisfactory. Then you could go further to see if "the price is right".

Thank you all so much for your replies. Uxorial, I will print out your article - I think it is going to be very useful. I actually have done a lot of gardening and designing up north, but down here I am not as familiar with all the plants so I thought I would hire someone for expediency. Also, I am not sure I have the strength anymore to do full bore gardening.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to price out the design because the LD would not allow me keep either the estimate, which had the details of the plants, or the drawing. Is this usual? I wasn't sure since this is the first time I have ever gone to an LD. :-) I assume it was so I wouldn't shop the design with another LD. In retrospect, now I have no idea what I paid for - it wasn't much, but still.

No, that is not usual. If you have already paid for it, you own the design and you absolutely should have a copy of it. And unless it was a packaged deal (design plus installation), you are certainly entitled to shop it around to whomever for the actual construction/installation of the design. Or do it yourself, if that was your intent. And there's also no reason not to have a copy of the estimate as well. Something sounds a little less than kosher with these practices.........

I probably should have checked here first before I paid the LD. I paid $100 upfront basically for doing the estimate for all the different sections of my yard.

The LD told me he would make a drawing and price out how much each area would cost. Then we would be able to pick and choose which parts we wanted to do. I figured even if the LD didn't work out, at least I would have a plan that I could use myself.

At first, I asked for a ballpark estimate or a "range" for the backyard because I really didn't want to even begin if the price was going to be more than I wanted to pay. I was told that it was impossible to "ballpark" or give a range for any part of it. My Dh and I did realize that we could be throwing the $$ into a black hole but we were counting on at least getting some ideas from the plan.

I can most likely recreate the plan in my mind and remember the plants on the list. But in retrospect, I don't think the plan really addressed our concerns with the backyard and that's a little depressing.

Although it can be painful to spend money, I don't think you should look at it like you threw away $100. You paid for the person's time and ideas. What may be funny business, as gardengal noted, is whether you should be getting to keep more for your $$. Perhaps not if the fee, in some cases, would be construed as the coming-out-to-see-you fee. Maybe then a detailed design + all the elements, that you would own and be able to shop around, would cost a lot more--I think it would, because would take more than an hour or 2 to design, draw, etc. and the person would not be getting anything else if you didn't go with him. I just don't know, but might not go with this person on that basis.

So, this whole process can be a little nerve-wracking and not free--you might want to meet several different professionals; hear their "vision" for your yard; you might easily pay another fee for another designer/estimate, or you might try some that walkabout for free. These are all choices. laag has had some good posts on different fee-approaches and how they work based on design only, design-build, and so on.

I guess we all need to keep asking a lot of questions when we first contact a landscape professional--how does your process work, what is accomplished on the first visit, how much $$, what do I get for each step or $$, etc.

Thanks frankie. I am not so concerned about spending the $$ although I would have preferred to come away with something I could pore over (that's just my nature - I like to obsess). The LD did let me write down the estimate amounts so I guess that's something I can refer to. I just don't understand why there is such big secrecy. It's really off-putting and now that I think about it, that is why I started questioning the price. I guess I felt that the LD had something to hide.

Well, I hope this points out to some people why it is not uncommon for a designer to charge a "consultation fee". It takes time to drive over to someone's house, talk about what they would like to do, and to find out some likes and dislikes. It takes considerably more time to sketch it out on a sheet of paper (to scale or not to scale. And it takes a lot of time to add up all of the materials, figure labor, and price it all out.

One hundred dollars does not cover that, but is there to deter people from wasting one's time. That is done for the chance of getting the job, not for $100.

I can not see how the OP feels like she got nothing for her $100. You have seen a concept to work from even if it needs tweaking and have a base price to compare to.

jerzeegirl,

I have hired a landscape designer to come up with a plan for our backyard, a courtyard and the improvement of the front yard. He has spent an entire afternoon on our lot and in the nursery with my husband and me.

So far I haven't seen the plans nor a price, but he did not ask for a consulting fee despite the fact that his boss (the owner of a rather large nursery)told me that he now charges $ 250 because people made him do the design, then went out and hired cheap labor to execute it.

laag: I never said I feel like I got nothing. I do think the LD worked diligently on my project and I don't regret spending the $$. I would like to have been able to keep the estimate and sketch (it wasn't a formal plan - just a sketch). I was asking for advice because I was wondering if the price seemed high and I was wondering if it was normal not to get the estimate and plans.

Unfortunately I don't particularly care for the design (but that's a different story). Regardless of this feeling, I would have probably gone with it anyway, if it was a little closer to what I was hoping to spend.

JerseyGirl, I'm not attacking you, just trying to make a point to others who have participated in similar discussions on similar topics. It is very hard for people to understand what it is like to go through a lot of effort only to watch your job get built by someone else after putting in a lot of effort for short money.

The secrecy is because there is more value in what the designer produced than what was charged for. The designer sees that extra work as an investment worth risking in trying to get the job. The designer does not see it as something to give away for someone else to use. That often happens if the plan is allowed to be kept or copied.

The designer knows that (s)he can not sell a $500 design on a job of this size or scope, so opts to to give less tangable design for affordable rates. It is the same priciple as demo software. You get to try it out, but if you don't buy it you don't get to keep it.

It further illustrates why a lot of designers won't even come out and look a smaller job. The cost of putting together even a simple design and pricing it out is too high a percentage of the budget for it to be able to be sold up front.

It is not often understood that it does not take a lot more time and effort to put together a big budget landscape plan than it does to put together a lower budget plan. That makes the cost of the plan disproportionately high for a small job and proportionally low on a higher budget job. The point being that it is much easier to sell a plan to someone with a bigger budget - not because they have so much money, but because it is a little piece of a big pie. On a small budget it is half the pie.

It also tends to be easier to design for people on bigger budgets because the smaller budget people want to try and preserve as many things as possible which requires more effort not only in accurately locating these items on a plan, but in the effort it requires to integrate new materials with the holdovers. It is not easy to do.

I know this does not help you get your job done, but it might help you and others in knowing what the designer is going through.

I have no problems with people making a living. I can't tell you how many comparative market analyses I did for free as a real estate agent. They are time consuming and if you want to do them right you need to familiarize yourself with all the comps you are using. And then all you can do is hope that you get the listing. So I feel very sympathetic towards people who earn their living this way.

I have only one wish and that would be to have some kind of ballpark idea how much the job was going to cost before paying the consultation fee. An LD can say "from my experience it usually costs $3,000 for a backyard this size", of course adding all the caveats that it depends on the kinds of plants and materials used. Then the client can choose whether to proceed. I think that's only fair. But I can understand why they don't do it. If I knew it was going to cost $3,000 for my fairly small space I would have probably moved on to Plan B immediately.

Now that the situation has been explained a bit more clearly, I agree 100% with laag. That very modest fee for an initial visit/consultation and estimate is a common practice and seldom is anything more than a rough sketch and estimate left behind with the homeowner. It's quite a bit different than contracting for and receiving a completed design plan and a quote for its implementation and the estimate by definition will be rough. Generally, this is expressed in a price range rather than a set figure as at this stage, there is still a lot undecided.

And laag is also correct in stating that there is a specific amount of preliminary work the designer must go through regardless of the size of the project. I myself quote a minimum design fee that will apply to even the smallest of projects and increase that fee appropriately according to the scope and complexity. It is impossible to provide any sort of reasonable estimate for the preparation and implementation of any design without seeing the site so I don't think your expectation for a "ballpark estimate" without paying for the consult is very realistic. And since my experience is that homeowners will tend to glom onto any estimate as a firm quote for work - they are very different - I would never consider providing even a ballpark figure without first seeing the property.

As to the actual estimate of $3000, given today's market and labor expenses, I still do not think that is an unreasonable amount for even a small project. As clearly stated previously, these things add up quickly. You could probably cut that estimate in half (at least) if you were to do the work yourself.

Many designers will ask you what your budget is right off the bat. Paying $100 for a consultation doesn't usually cover the cost of a drawing that you can keep. It's usually the first step, along with the rough sketch, to a more in-depth design at X dollars per hour, for a more detailed design, which you then own.

Whether $3000 is a lot for a small yard is hard to say. Will they be bringing in soil? Creating any berms or doing any other grading? Is the area difficult to access with equipment, ie., will they have to manually carry materials from the front to the backyard? Will they plant large, mature specimens of the plants they suggested, or small ones that you will have to wait for to reach a good size? What is the quality and type of the stone/gravel they will use? How will they prepare the base for these paved areas? What kind of mulch, and how thickly applied?

There are a lot of variables, including the quality of workmanship, reliability, etc. There is value in having a job done well, on time, by people who show up when they say they will, or at least call and let you know if they run into a problem. Read some of the posts about people who came in cheap, used poor materials or did a bad job, and disappeared with the money, or came back and botched it even worse.

You might want to invest another $100 consult fee if possible to get another estimate, or see if another local nursery does free consults from photos and drawings you bring in for small jobs such as yours. Some will do it if you will be buying your plants from them, or having them do the installation. You might be able to get a quick estimate that way.

Good luck.

To answer your questions:

Will they be bringing in soil? No.
Creating any berms or doing any other grading? No grading or berms.
Is the area difficult to access with equipment, ie., will they have to manually carry materials from the front to the backyard? No. My driveway runs right through it so it's easy to access.
Will they plant large, mature specimens of the plants they suggested, or small ones that you will have to wait for to reach a good size? Nothing mature. Small plants only. So they would grow into their location. In fact, some of the plants were going to be plants I already have that would be divided and transplanted.
What is the quality and type of the stone/gravel they will use? This I can't answer but I think it's just average quality. We did not discuss any special stone.
How will they prepare the base for these paved areas? No paved areas are in the design.
What kind of mulch, and how thickly applied? I don't know the answer but I have in the past bought mulch by the yard and I can't imagine using more than 1.5 yards, 2 yards tops.

saypoint: I would spend another $100 to get another LD but the other two LDs I spoke with do not charge anything for a consultation. I called this LD because I liked his work and I think he'd be fun to work with. I guess it's up to me to decide whether I want to pay the going rate. :-)

jerzeegirl, you said "An LD can say "from my experience it usually costs $3,000 for a backyard this size""

I'm not a professional landscape designer, so I haven't felt qualified to comment on your questions. I'm sorry if I'm mis-interpreting what you mean, but the comment above, to me, sounds no different than "I wear a size 14 coat. How much will one cost?"

It's just not as easy to put together a quote as you want to make it. When I was looking for pricing on a project several years ago and received quotes from $7500-$22,000, the difference between them was not in the size of the space they were working, or even in what the plan looked like. It was almost entirely in the specific materials used.

Even with something as mundane as mulch, there's a bunch of variables. What kind -- broken-up plywood palettes? Shredded leaves? Softwood shreds? Hardwood bark? Spread how thickly? How is that amount determined? Weed preventer beneath it? Fabric? Neither? Edging to contain the mulch in its place? What kind? Installed manually or by machine?

I don't want you to literally answer these questions, of course; it's just an example of how many variables can come into play. Certainly, you can't just say "well, the property is 12,000 square feet so to landscape it will cost 12,000 times x."

deeje: of course, you are right. It's impossible to ballpark such a job. I guess what would have been useful to hear is "from my past experience landscaping a yard this size generally costs between $3,000 to $6,000. If you want more exotic plants it will cost more". That would have satisfied me because I probably would have said "I don't want to spend that much". At that point we could start talking about a different design or I could have just said "I'll landscape it myself (which I really don't want to do!)."

Business wise it's probably not a good idea for a LD to do that because if they give a price that's too high, they will lose the client right off the bat.

It is not easy being a consumer looking for a landscape this size. I really believe that the best thing is to call some design/build landscape companies and find ones hat will come out and give you their best effort at getting the job. Some will sketch out a plan,others might do a good job at walking you around and describiing it, some you'll like, some you won't. Just keep trying until you feel comfortable with one of them. There are some great people out there amongst some that are not too great.

There are more small jobs than big jobs. There are more people capable of doing small jobs than big jobs. This is a very important segment of the landscape industry. But, it is not a segment that is either served well by designers or serves designers well. Design/build contractors are who you should be talking to.

You need someone who values doing your job as much as you value having it done.

I hope this helps.

That's a good idea, laag. I didn't even think about that possibility. I can probably find some design/build firms on Angies List. Thanks for your help!

I'm still perseverating on whether you are getting done what you think you want to have in your yard. No soil, no paving, plant a couple of crape myrtles and mulch everything?

I suspect I do not have a good grasp of the hardscape that is being done as pea gravel and river rock. Is that providing useful outdoor living spaces and/or pathways through the garden?

frankie: You are very perceptive! :-) I am lost now from all the different ideas. The landscaping will not providing any useful living space. It doesn't have to. The space abuts a paver patio with spa and that is our outdoor living area. The space that needs to be landscaped is about 25 x 18 and our concrete driveway runs through it. At first we were going to remove the concrete driveway strips and replace with pavers (same as our patio), but we realized it would be too much hardscape. We can no longer sod the backyard because it has become too shady (big live oak in one corner) and sabal palm in another corner. Our neighbors planted ficus along their fence which has cast half the yard in shade all day. The other half of the yard gets partial sun.

All I really want is something to step on next to concrete drive strips when I get out of the car. I hate stepping on dirt. This was the whole catalyst for re-landscaping. There used to be sod next to the drive strips but the sod wasted away from being in shade and the yard now consists of dirt and oak leaves with some border plantings. Yuck. It originally looked pretty until the shade took over!

The rest of the yard doesn't have to do anything but look pretty. At the moment I am working on a landscape drawing myself. I would like to post it for feedback when I am done.