There is no necessary difference between heirloom and hybrid in terms of sweetness or overall flavor. It is a variety thing as well as growing conditions.

There are many who have their favorite heirlooms and find no hybrid that matches the flavor, but that is an individual thing, not anything objective.

There are also those who find a particular hybrid to have flavor beyond equal. Again, this is subjective and not objective.

Still, there are some very popular choices in both categories. Sungold is a cherry type hybrid that many love and Brandywine is an heirloom that many love the flavor of. Just 2 examples.

moonlight - do you have a particular veggie in mind or just veggies in general?

As justaguy said - taste is a very individual thing so while many have their individual favorites, it doesn't mean the you would necessarily like them. For all practical purposes, a carrot is a carrot and a bean is a bean (well except for Fortex beans - they are better). ;)

Dave

Dave,

What's with Fortex beans?? The one time I tried them they were knotty and didn't look worth picking.[not tender looking at all] Are they better as a half shell-out green bean or what?

Justaguy explained the flavor aspect very well.

I first got interested in heirlooms in an effort to find the "old fashioned tomato flavor" I remembered from my childhood. I have now found several tomatoes I like very much, although not the one I was looking for. :-)

Since then I have become a seed saver, which is another reason to grow heirlooms (aka open pollinated varieties). Some vegetables, such tomatoes, beans and squash, have thousands of varieties to explore. Some of the very old varieties are distinctive and desirable. In the case of beans, there are no hybrid varieties.

Some of the reasons for choosing hybrids are not related to flavor. Many hybrids have been created for disease resistance, high yield and other attributes.

So basically, it's as justaguy explained, at least as far as flavor is concerned. In addition to flavor, there are some other factors to consider in choosing varieties.

Jim

There are many tasty hybrids--such as the Celebrity tomato--and other AAS winners. But saving seed and reducing costs are lost with hybrids. Sometimes life is six of one and a half-dozen of the other. So I plant favorites of hybrids and open pollinateds.

Here is a link that might be useful: HarvestToTable.com

wayne 5,

I grew Fortex for the first time last year and found it to be a wonderful snap bean. It is productive. The pods are remarkably long. I picked them at about the diameter of a pencil, some smaller. They were tender. I thought the flavor was very good. I'm not sure why yours were not so good.

Jim

Hybrids generally provide consistency while heirlooms offer surprises. I have my old reliable hybrids like Big Boy tomatoes and then my out of this world success with Giant Bohemians. I get pleasure from both. Keep it fun.

Good luck,

Brook

What's with Fortex beans?? The one time I tried them they were knotty and didn't look worth picking.[not tender looking at all]

I would strongly recommend trying them again. No idea why you got the results you did as I have never heard of this happening before. Maybe you got mislabeled seeds or something.

Fortex is eaten whole, not shelled for beans. In addition to good flavor and good yields, it is never stringy and can be picked up to 7" or so long as a filet bean or allowed to grow to ~11" long and use it like any other green bean.

It's a very good bean choice for those, like me, who aren't always diligent about getting out there and picking every day. It will keep on the vine a few days before getting too fat and losing tenderness.

wayne - sorry you had a negative experience with Fortex. you are the first person I've heard a negative from - honest. As JAG said, maybe wrong seed or any pest problems, unusual growing conditions? I'd bet on a disease problem like BMV. But do give them another try. Finding the seeds for them is the real problem. ;)

Dave

First of all they are a pole type bean and just do not produce those handfuls of nice young new beans like most bush beans........I have raised maybe 25 varieties of green beans with some better than others.

Dave....not a disease problem.

I just wanted to jump in on the Fortex bean discussion. I agree that they are really delicious.

Wayne: your problem sounds strange. Fortex beans that I've grown have stayed tender and delicious up to 11 inches long and have been highly productive. In general pole beans are 2-3 times more productive than bush beans.

Jon

Just to give Wayne a little support on this - I tried Fortex about 5 years ago. Could NOT figure out what the interest was in them. They were way short of what I expect in a bean in texture and flavor.

Here is a guess. Since they are open pollinated, seed is harvested in large fields. Perhaps, Wayne and I got seed from a substandard field or group of plants. Or, maybe not . . .

Pulling this back some to the subject of heirlooms & hybrids, I assume that the strains for hybridizing are carefully maintained. There is a limited number of parent plants. Something I appreciate about hybrids is the consistency. Brook is making that point.

Interest and appreciation of heirlooms seems to be highly personalized. Kel, you have reason to be hesitant to ask your question. What happens is that we find a variety with, what seems to us, outstanding qualities. It has special appeal.

There are good reasons why some varieties have fallen from favor. Simply because it was widely grown 100 years ago doesn't mean that it is or was outstanding beyond words. On the other hand, simply because a modern hybrid has caught the current wave of popularity doesn't mean that it is all things to all people. The phrase "lowest common denominator" comes to mind.

. . . good question.

Steve

It is my understanding that many "hybrid" vegetable seeds are not actually hybrids in the true sense as many vegetables are actually the same species (Brassica oleracea, Allium cepa) and I have read and heard of people saving seeds from so called "hybrid" vegetables. It does, sometimes, take an additional generation to get good results, however. Admittedly, I have never tried breeding hybrids myself, only heard/read accounts of people doing it. (people with much more gardening space than I have)

In ideal conditions there might not be much difference, but in non-ideal conditions specialized hybrid seed often shine very bright. Where I live near SFO, squash and other cucurbits get powdery mildew and decline by late July - often without bearing at all. Mildew resistant strains will be unaffected and bear until frost kills them in Nov! The difference is absolutely DRAMATIC. Needless to say, I only buy powdery mildew resistant seed, and frankly that's pretty much only hybrids.

Depending on what your local conditions are you may or may not have problems with this kind of thing, but keep it in mind if something does poorly for you this year. Seed companies invest a lot into the capabilities they put into their seed, and F1 hybrids are a way of preventing 'piracy', kind of like biological DRM. Can't really begrudge them wanting to get something back for the work they do, and it's still a heck of a lot cheaper than a blu-ray DVD. ;)

I can remember older varieties from the '40s..Usually I prefer newer varieties. Take sweet corn for example. The old Golden Bantam, Country Gentleman, and Stowell's Evergreen were very nice eating in their day. Once MOST people get ahold of newer varieties, it is hard to go back. We do tend to get spoiled with comforts and enjoyments of the flesh.

I remember planting the old Kentucky Wonder pole bean over 50 years ago..good. A few years ago I planted Kentucky Wonder bush...yetch.

One of the reasons I generally favor open pollinated varieties over hybrids is historical interest. Although I won't grow a vegetable I don't enjoy eating, many very old varieties are also very tasty. I offer Yellow Crookneck Squash as an example. Also, I like to play a small part in the preservation of rare old varieties by growing them, saving seed and giving them wider distribution. An example of that would be Eastham Turnip. I like to browse through the reprint I have of Fearing Burr's 19th century book on vegetable varieties and read about the origins of things we grow today. I don't expect all gardeners to share this particular interest, but many do.

Wayne, so far as the Fortex bean debate is concerned, I would like for you to name a couple of your favorite beans. I've grown only a fraction of the varieties you have and I can benefit from your experience.

BTW Wayne, equating pole and bush varieties of Kentucky Wonder may not be fair. I've grown neither, but IIRC those who have find a difference in flavor.

BTW Kel, there are no hybrid bean varieties. All are open pollinated. Which ones are heirlooms is a matter of opinion because "heirloom" has no agreed upon definition. "Open pollinated vs. hybrid" is definable.

Jim

Jim,
I prefer young tender green beans about 80% of the time. It is hard to beat Burpee Tenderpod there. Florence is good. Jade fairly good....also Slenderette. I hate Blue Lake 274 for fresh eating.
For meaty beans I like a few Burpee Stringless Green Pod.

For lima beans I like them mostly smallish and quite green yet. Burpee Fordhook 242 is just right for me, but I hate green limas that are too big, whitish at all and too starchy. Still, I like mature limas [butterbeans] done deliciously ....occasionlly.

You can't just compare taste of plant A to B like that, IMO. There are so many variables involved in getting a crop to harvest - seasonal things, amount of water, etc. etc.

Having said that, modern hybrids are sometimes created for reasons other than taste, and once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny..er, well, point is I used to not care much about that, but now I pay attention and plant mostly OP varieties. Maybe someday I'll get to saving seeds, but in the meantime, I'm relocating tomatoe volunteers and enjoying some primo veg.

Strange that beans have become a side discussion here, since there are no hybrid beans.

"What's with Fortex beans?? The one time I tried them they were knotty and didn't look worth picking.[not tender looking at all]"

I'm a big fan of Fortex, but I did have a similar experience once, when I first started growing them. The pods twisted & curled severely, and had hard brown spots which would crack if bent. After some observation, I figured out that it was wind bruising - one of the variety's few weaknesses. So now I always plant them downwind of another tall crop as a windbreak (such as corn or pole limas) and get straight, beautiful pods.

On to the original post. This is one of those topics that comes up every year, on almost every garden forum. There are devotees of both hybrids & heirlooms... but as Jimster hinted above, the topic should really be "hybrid vs. OP" (open pollinated).

There have already been many valid points presented here. Hybrids might perform better under less than ideal conditions (such as the far North), or if a particular disease is a major problem. Some have also been bred for "all at once" harvest, which represents an advantage for canning purposes. However, those qualities are no guarantee of superior flavor. And as previously mentioned, you can't save hybrid seed & expect the crop to breed true, so new seed/plants must be purchased each year.

Many of those who grow OP seed do so because it represents food independence... once grown, you never again need to purchase seed. Some state that OP varieties are inferior to hybrids; but many of them are the products of once-great public & private breeding programs, and are every bit as good as their hybrid counterparts.

There are many heirloom/OP varieties with great flavor... but that should not be assumed, any more than poor flavor should be assumed of hybrids. There are winners & losers in both categories. Nor do hybrids have a monopoly on disease resistance; I have quite a few OP varieties that I grow expressly because of their resistance to the diseases present in my area. The only problem in that regard is that OP disease resistance is not well documented, so it might take a bit of searching and/or trials to find resistant varieties. That's one area where garden forums can really be helpful.

As a member of the Seed Savers Exchange, my preference is to grow OP/hybrid as my first choice, so I have eliminated nearly all hybrids from my garden. There is a great feeling to saving your own seed, and keeping alive the varieties of the past. It's also nice to be able to share seed... and I should point out, not many share hybrids. ;-) But I am not an absolutist... my main objections to hybrids are philosophical. Still can't see giving up hybrid sweet corn... as Wayne stated, "it is hard to go back".

One more note on flavor. Culture has at least as much influence upon flavor as variety. Even an otherwise mediocre variety, given good soil, TLC, and picked in its prime, will outshine the best supermarket produce... and the best variety, grown poorly, might be disappointing. It might matter less whether a variety is OP or hybrid, and more how much care is put into growing it.

Wayne,

Upon your recommendation I will grow some Burpee Tenderpod to get some early snap beans. Most of the beans I grow are pole beans of various types, which don't bear early. I'm craving beans before they are ready.

Take zeedman's information seriously. He knows beans. I have no doubt he has nailed the problem you had with Fortex.

Of course, it would be terribly boring if everyone liked the same thing, wouldn't it? And I certainly don't wish for the choices to disappear due to everyone arriving at a consensus on one best bean. But there is a reason for the popularity of Fortex.

Jim