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How to create 'age?'

20 years ago

I guess this is like the "mood" post. I am looking for a feeling...I have a brand, spanking, new house with a scraped to the bedrock, no topsoil yard. No large trees or shrubs to focus on. Other than wait, how do I achieve "age," that sense of permenence? Rock walls, large plantings (not large plants)? What is it that creates the feel of "been there forever?" Without the large plants and trees, is it possible to attain this?

Just wondering...

NN

Comments (35)

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    You might as well plant the trees and shrubs now, because they will still be wanted in 20 years time when they will create a feeling of age. Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow accelerate that process?? You may consider a planting of 2 types of trees
    1 - very fast growing to give an instant effect
    2 - nice, slow growing ones

    After the slow growing ones have established and gotten some size, then you can remove the fast growing ones (10 years or so). If you do this, draw up your plan so the landscaping stands on it's own without the fast growers; place the slow growing ones in the prime locations. The fast growers are just to fill in and bulk up, with the intent they are only there for a short while.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    This is a tough one.....it is not easy to rapidly develop a sense of venerability with a blank slate such as you describe.

    I happened by one of my local design clients yesterday. It is essentially new construction, having torn down an old house on the property to the foundation and rebuilt as a new structure. Although the house is not even finished yet, the homeowner, who is doing all the work himself, wanted to plant the landscape simultaneous with the construction. This a pretty urban location, relatively small lot, but with NOTHING on it. All the planting areas are essentially raised beds as there was a lot of terracing done as well as a need for privacy - corner location - very exposed. Consequently, we brought in a lot of good quality soil to fill these planting areas. This is the start of the third season for most of the plantings and I was amazed to see how much things have filled in and grown in the intervening years. The garden is already very full and lush and seems much more established than actual time would indicate.

    The point of that long, drawn out preface is that I believe how well you prepare the site initially has a great deal to do with how well and how fast the garden develops. Plant choices also play a big factor, but the primary concern should be soil quality and drainage. Fortunately, with a scraped-to-the-bare-bones situation like yours, this is a relatively easy situation to address.

    I am also of the opinion that a thoughtful introduction of hardscape will help to establish a sense of "age" and permanence to a new garden. As in the rock wall terracing of my client's property, these features help to define and provide character to a site that may be lacking with just a flat, blank yard. And, while not everyone's cup of tea, the use of landscape boulders or other rock features also contribute to a sense of establishment versus just a flat expanse of new plantings and/or lawn.

    You may want to invest a healthy portion of your new plant budget into something that already has some size and age associated with it - like one good sized tree to become an anchor or focal point. Most shrubs and perennials grow relatively quickly, provided they have a decent base to begin with, so while your new garden will look exactly that - a new garden - for a season or two, it will fill out and in faster than you expect with careful selection and proper care.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I think the advice you've gotten so far is excellent. I will add that you can also give a sense of "age" by bringing in things with real age. For example, you might lay a winding stone path (talk about age!) interplanted with nice step-ables which fill in quickly. An antique structure on which to grow a fast growing vine, or a beautiful garden bench flanked by large, old-looking, pots filled with annuals will add spots of "heritage" to your spanking-new landscape. But also, think about adding to your garden from a friend's garden...those plants will have real history and, while looking new in your garden, will help give you a sense of being grounded.

    Patty

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you all so much, I know I have a lot of work ahead of me, rebuilding the soil and planting. I am looking for theory and observation...what is it that shows "age" in a landscape? Style of architecture for buildings, patina for metal, but is size alone an indicator of age for landscape? Is a prairie "new" because it is short? There are ancient fields in Europe that have only grass and rock walls. Is it simplicity, complexity or just size in the plantings?
    NN

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "Is a prairie "new" because it is short? There are ancient fields in Europe that have only grass and rock walls. Is it simplicity, complexity or just size in the plantings?

    First off, I'm not certain I would characterize prarie as "short"...many of the grasses and plants that grow in undisturbed prairie could measured in feet, not inches. Be that as it may... Let's theorize about why the postulated prairie and ancient european fields DON'T look new...even though they are devoid of "plants with size." It would help if you would clarify what SORT of ancient european fields we are talking about--crop fields, hay fields, or pasturage? The reasoning will be different for different types of fields...

    I would contend that the pararie and pasture fields look aged because they are (largely) UNDISTURBED. They match the geography around them. In the case of prarie--miles of (seemingly) unbroken grasslands. In the case of pasturage--grass broken only by obviously ancient walls and hedgerows...punctuated with ancient shepherds huts in various states of repair.

    As to culltivated european fields--they still have the old walls or hedgerows. And in the US--old farmhouses usually have large trees planted near them for shade--in fact, you can often sopot where a farmhouse USED to be by the (ususally) four trees that were planted to shade it.

    I think what makes many new houses look so NEW is the "plopped down-ness" that characterizes new developments. Particularly when old farm land is used...It always looks as though someone just "set" a bunch of houses out in a cornfield...

    melanie

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "What is it that creates the feeling of 'been there forever'. Without the large trees and plants, is it possible to attain this?"

    Yes, it is possible. Purchase a copy of the SOUTHERN LIVING LANDSCAPE BOOK. You should find it to be a very helpful book for ideas. Study the hardscape pictures carefully. Part of the answer lies in hardscape using recycled or old looking type bricks or native stone. As soil needs to be trucked in anyway think about the possibility of elevating part of the rear yard a bit which adds interest. Pergolas/arbors can be designed in many ways providing instant dappled shade. Very old south.

    Plantings of the old shrub roses plus Crepe myrtles grow quickly and give a sense of age. There are other plant, shrub and small tree choices. If this is a DIY project I would encourage you to at least have a consultation with designer who could start you off on the right path to antiquity.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Melanie: right on. what we are really talking about here is character not age. Crap doesn't gain a pleasant patina in some mysterious state of maturity.
    The thing about growing things is that they are NOT permanent and aging is a process, not something that you air brush on. If you have bought a house in the scraped to the bone place you describe and now want to make it something else I wonder what that means?
    If you are trying to draw a parallel with the question about mood I suggest you tune into where you are and create a landscape that sits well with that rather than attempting to impose a feeling from another place and time.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Although they are not the same thing, there is an overlap between "class" and "old". Or maybe classic. So if you can discipline yourself to use very classic furnishings like teak, and a restrained palette of natural materials, it will appear, if not necessarily old, "timeless". So the old brick, stone ideas are really good. You can't get that look with plastic and a lot of cheap inported stuff and instant decorating. Of course, if you have moss growing on your bricks, and old oaks, you can plop down some resin chairs and still have look of age.

    Some of the "cottage" magazines do feature aged-appearing landscapes.

    So some combination of one or 2 mature plantings, excellent quality classic furniture OR great buys in used wrought iron or old teak, old brick or native stone. I also think groundcovers, installed so as to cover quickly, give a calm, "older" look.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Melanie is describing what I think is context. I think that Ink is driving that home.

    What happens to a site (natural or man made) when it ages? It erodes. The grade erodes to softer lines. The edges of vegetation become fuzzier. There are less contrasts and not only in color.

    In man made sites plants more than fill their beds (what beds?). That rules out big empty mulch areas with spotty plants. Open spaces become fields (I have to start using that term where I often say lawn). The prominence of the house is often eroded by the plants and trees.

    What about places where trees and shrubs do not thrive? Driveways don't have that crisp lazer graded shoulder do they? There never seems to be clean lines that separate things, but more transitions. Things are not so clearly demarked as they are in newscapes.

    In natural sites mountains crumble, lakes silt in, sands blow, and rains erode. But there are forces that do the opposite. Continental plates thrust, rivers cut new clean lines, fires clear growth, and landslides expose new edges. Those are less often and severe, though.

    If it comes down to one thing, I'd go with edges, or the softening of them rather.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I may be restating what's already been said, if so, I apologize. (Sometimes, I learn so much reading a thread that at the end I think I've got original ideas.)

    Using indigenous material may work better than using "old-looking" imported material. So, if you are building a wall or a patio, your local rock, whatever that may be, might work better than bringing in lichen-covered stone from the Catskills.

    In other words, you may have misidentified the problem as newness. If your REAL aim is to make the place not look so much like it's been "plunked down," you can probably do that more sucessfully by developing the sense of place rather than trying for a fake antique look. Lichen or moss on the stone (or brick) would be a GOOD thing, it's just not the primary solution.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I am not really trying to "fake" age, real time is the only thing that will truly create it. However, laag's comments are more what I am looking for. What is it about a mature, or ancient landscape that displays these traits? Erosion, trees growing between boulders, large stands of one plant? Just because I have a "new" landscape, I can still observe the natural world and plant to hasten that forever feeling. Bonsai can look ancient in a matter of years. I really want observations, if someone asks you to design a landscape that looks like it has been there for a very long time and you can't bring in 40' tall trees, what would you do? What does age look like?

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    You have some excellent points, nativenut, in that there are many facets to what is perceived as age, timelessness, classic, period, and many other references to the looks of times past. In the garden, or landscape, age comes as well in many facets, and those not only in the size and caliper of the trees. For instance, many very old gardens of Italy, France, and Europe have few great, grand trees within or in the proximaty of them. They nonetheless look ancient, or of antiquity. Why? I think ques.

    Various periods throughout landscape design history have had their diverse yet distinctive forms, proportions, detail elements, or 'style' if you will. The same holds true in the more micro history of our own national gardening history--periods of time have distinctively had their effect on the sensibilities of the garden, and what was considered "in style." These have changed significantly in only the last 50 years, let alone 100. From Victorian gardens and landscapes at the turn of the century, to prairie style, to expressionism, to postmodernism and the uber-contemporary.

    I think what you are asking, then, is "What will place my landscape into a recognizeable, and identifiable period of time?" rather than what things can I make look old and worn, or what plants will look old the fastest. If you can put some thought into what periods have done to the changes in landscapes and gardens, particularly published material demonstrating the design philosophy shifts through distinctive periods, I think you will find your answer. It really is your part, though, to identify what period essence you most identify with personally, and which fundamental sensibilities within those period distinctives evokes your greatest sence of connection. If it is the baroque French garden full of partierres, or the renaissance Tuscan villa walled garden practice, take a look at how it can be applied to your particular location and context. Good luck, and keep the forum informed on your decision.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Ever since I have been in the business there has been a tendency to plant ornamental trees rather than hardwoods. It is probably the presence that an oak brings as opposed to a cherry or a pear that gives an air of always being there. Like many European gardens. Interestingly this is the one feature that a study of resale house values put at the top of the list. Saypoint lives in a house like this, unfortunately there is no quick fix.
    I doubt that it is possible to create the look you want with concrete and sharp edges (as laag says) perhaps you could build a ruin or a tumbling down wall, something less than perfect. First build the wall well and then push some of it over and let clematis or ivy or something grow over it. If you can get your head around it have a look at what is known as 'wabi-sabi'.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Ink, Thank you so much for that! I have never heard of it and in the few minutes I've been reading about it, I've fallen in love with the concept. Here is a short excerpt from the site, The Wabi-Sabi Studio:

    "Wabi-Sabi is often spoken of as one concept, but it is actually a combination of two concepts. Wabi is a concept/aesthetic which cannot be truly defined. Some of the aspects of wabi which seem to be agreed upon by most authorities are:

    * relates to the natural world
    * earthly elegance
    * has a feeling that an object with wabi seems to be growing from or decaying back into nature
    * is artistically quiet, not harsh or jarring
    * is peaceful and unimposing
    * is subtle-the longer you contemplate an object the more nuances you will discover.
    * understated elegance

    Sabi is a quality of having age or history. Sabi can be an irregularity or flaw such as a chip, crack or discoloration caused by age or use. Other aspects of sabi include serenity, melancholy, and loneliness."

    I can see how this can very nicely apply to gardening and garden/landscape design.
    Patty

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    To me, it's not so much about "age" as it is about a certain type of "newness". This appearance of "newness" is what you might achieve outside your home if you are the type to buy a matched furniture suite (sofa, chair, coffee and end tables) for your interior. The result is deviod of person expression other than "I didn't care enough to invest time and effort in choosing these items". It's like walking into a big box store and thoughtlessly boxing up one of whatever's offered there. This type of landscape may appeal to people who need to have the yard "done", who haven't taken the time to develop an educated opinion or original point of view about what they want in a landscape, who can't commit to a defined style of any sort beyond plain vanilla and simply think that they should have the same, typical landscape the everyone around them seems to have--there is security in that. I often wonder if there is a designer present in the construction of these landscapes or if they are the product of contractors or of landscape installers who simply go around applying the same conventions and generic materials to each new project.

    I think that economic reality is a HUGE part of the problem. I can't imaging a highly conceptual, highly designed, top of the line landscape (for which I'd expect to give up an arm and a leg) appearing "new" in this context. But, sadly, we all have to shop at the big box store sometime.

    On the other hand, I think this type of look is avoidable if:

    1) You design/build something that has a stong, non-generic design.

    2) You make some attempt to "mix and match" instead of basically ordering the whole landscape from the same package. I'd consider using several different paving options for different parts of the landscape or choosing coordinating--not matching--materials for walls and floors.

    3) To the greatest extent possible, you use materials that have some integrity and individuality and avoid those that are branded too obviously with a price and date stamp (like landscape blocks/pavers).

    4) You choose to spend your money on quality instead of quantity, maybe phasing the work so you can afford "best of class" design help or materials.

    5) Take time to add layers to the design. A just out of the box landscape won't yet have the furnishings and accessories that accumulate over time. Instead of one pot pristinely sitting in the corner of a new terrace, you might add a whole collection. Instead of a meager table and four chairs, consider adding the umbrella and the loungers. Think about adding candeliers or chandeliers to your trees or pergolas etc. etc.

    Just my .02

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    YES!!!!Thank you! THANK YOU! That is exactly what I was looking for. I want my yard to be Southeastern Wabi-sabi!!!! That is the expression of the feeling that I am trying to achieve! I knew I had posted in the right spot! I have already built (unknowingly, instinctively perhaps) two rock retaining walls on the steep slopes of my yard using rocks from the new construction next door. I want to plant mostly native shrubs all over the front in large sweeps. I'd like to keep the suburbaness to a minimum (the ARC really questioned me on my small amount of sod.) If there are flowers at all, they are planned in drifts to direct the eye toward the house, and my pallate is very limited. Keep the ideas and links comming please!
    NN

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    While we have pretty thoroughly hashed over the conceptual aspects of this pursuit, the actual mechanics have been largely avoided. Running parallel to the concept of "age" is that of maturity.

    Age is unavoidably a determining factor for recognizing the maturity of woody plants. One is left with little choice when relying upon this plant group. However, an astute plants person will recognize that there is one plant family (and a few scattered genera) that effuses maturity in but a single season. Although horticulturally, nothing can supplant the character of a 150 year-old oak tree, it is largely an overlooked fact that clumping grasses attain their full, mature height in a single season. Grasses, particularly the clumping grasses, gracefully display a mature quality in spite of an absence of chronological age. (From an aesthetic point of view, one also garners some additional "points" because grasses are largely underused in most landscapes.)

    Author Rick Darke goes into some detail in during one of his lectures about how he used this technique to "buy some time" while waiting for his woody plants to gain some maturity on the 1.5 acres of rolling piedmont landscape of his then, new home in Pennsylvania. Of course, most grasses demand full sun a characteristic which can be used to your advantage. As the trees and shrubbery gain height and canopy, they begin to shade-out the grasses; thereby insuring that the grasses will decline and be ready for removal and displacement to sunnier areas.

    I have successfully used this technique in my prairie landscape of my new home as well. I can go from grass plugs the size of your thumb, planted in the spring, to a look of maturity by late summer  a real plus for a barren lot. Although this technique will not pave all the avenues of your quest, it should certainly prove helpful in tempering the absence of age.

    IronBelly

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    So the universal, not to say mechanical answer to this question is, plant ornamental grass? It matters not where you may live a prairie landscape is what you should strive after. I am sure this is not what you mean Dan yet it sounds that way. Are you saying that someone with a new garden wanting to move things swiftly along should plant something that looks full within one season.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Particularly for an OP from Georgia with a name like "Nativenut", it seems well within the range of possibilities that he would find initial placements of selected native grasses from his locale quite useful.

    Most of us can quickly recite the old perennial wisdom from memory: Sleep - Creep - Leap. However, this "fact" can be largely ignored when planting perennial grasses. While the girth of a grass clump may slowly expand as time proceeds, the full height is attained during the first growing season. Unless used as a specimen, a planting of grasses can impart a sense of maturity well within the first growing season. Meanwhile, your perennials and woody plants are only beginning to settle in.

    Irrespective of region, there seems to be a universal demand for screening. Grasses can prove particularly useful in this application. It is true that there may be a window of time during the spring when tall grasses have not yet gained their annual stature. However, this largely occurs when the typical need for screening is less pronounced. --- Not perfect but a whole lot more effective than waiting for the ubiquitous, scrawny row of Leyland Cypress to attain a physique.

    To be sure, the use of grasses alone will not achieve a look of ageing in a landscape. Any landscape is the sum of its parts. The unique potential offered almost exclusively by this family in the plant kingdom had been a part ignored up until now. Coupled with previous advice contained in this thread, one should be able to advance more quickly to the goal. Incorporation of largely underused plants in the landscape is icing on the cake.

    IronBelly

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Must admit that I am lost in this discussion. The type of plants installed, be they native or Chinese in origin has nothing to do with the representation of 'age' in a new landscape.

    Having just returned from travels which took us through growing zone 7 regions in SC., NC., and GA. I had nativenut's question in mind as we drove. You have to understand that this part of the south is hard scrabble; either pure sand or rock hard clays. We were in very old communities where the savy residents have given up fighting the growing conditions and one finds little landscaping.

    In the brand new housing developments, which are numerous as Atlanta escapes its borders in every direction spilling into surrounding states, I wandered and studied how the area landscapers were designing. My hat is off to those nameless designers working with monster brick houses set on small lots. Row after row. They are doing an excellent job of grounding the houses which is a large part of 'age' type landscaping.

    I expressed my thoughts on this subject above. I stand by what I wrote despite those who disagreed with me. Over and over as we traveled through new developments it was apparent that area designers were concentrating on hardscape as a method to introduce the appearance of age into the landscapes. Just my two cents.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Ornamental grasses are a turn of the millenium time stamp, not that there is anything wrong with that.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you all for your input! I have actually planned a section of "dallas blues" panicum at the top of our hill for movement in our constant breeze and because of the backlighting of the sunset. The house is a southern style, two-story farmhouse, perched on a ridge overlooking the rest of the county. We don't want to spoil the view with any trees taller than 30 feet at maturity, therefore, it is planned for smaller trees and large shrubs. The front yard is extremely sloped a true 30+ degree angle up. I have added two native stone retaining walls and plan to add one more. There are some exposed granite boulders exposed along the hillside and we had a waterfall builder place more to create a "dry" waterfall to direct the runoff from the house down the hill. Without the height of big trees, I would still like to create an "age" for the yard. I am trying to pay homage to the beautiful setting that was here before this street was cut through. I prefer a natural look, but I know that does not mean tossing plants off the hill and planting them where they fall. I am attempting to plant FOR the site, not in spite of it.
    NN

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "Ornamental grasses are a turn of the millenium time stamp"

    Hmmm...
    Actually, ornamental grasses scream 1979 to me (unless they're purple.)

    Guess what's old is new again.

    To further that thought: buy an old landscaping book at a used book store. Follow one of it's "timeless plans."
    Voila! Landscape circa 1956, or 1983, or 1974, or whenever.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    It it obvious that personal definitions have again caused some confusion on this forum. I interjected my thoughts about the unique role I felt grasses could be used to advantage in a new landscape. Perhaps my contributions would have been better described as adding a look of "maturity" rather than "age".

    I have to substantially agree with Nandina and Laag that hardscape will conjure up a conventional impression of "age". Of course, age is relative -- and therein lies the problem. "Age" could mean months, years, decades or centuries.

    To put things into the perspective I was (poorly) referring to: I offered an effective technique that I used when attempting to garner a fullness and somewhat mature look in brand new beds within short order.

    Specifically, I am talking about what I did when I built my new house. I knew full-well that trees, shrubs and perennials would take a while to fill in. However, I did not wish to look upon a stark landscape while waiting several years for things to gain maturity and fill in. I also did not want to rely on annuals. At least in a portion of my yard, I experimented (successfully, I might add) with a predominance of native grasses and a few selected forbs that I knew would perform well.

    A couple of photos taken in mid-May and then again in mid-August (just three short months apart) should help to illustrate my point. Does this example constitute "age"? -- I'll leave that up to you to define. What I can say with confidence is that a number of accomplished gardeners whom I respect found it hard to believe that one could achieve such a mature, full look in just three months.

    Perhaps someone may find this technique useful for future reference even if it does not qualify as "age". {{gwi:26986}}
    A rain garden is planted in mid-May.

    {{gwi:26987}}
    A rain garden struts its stuff in August!

    IronBelly

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Pines impart a feeling of age. Plant some of those.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Your suggestion is only a regional thing, Bboy. Out here on some of the prairies, we annually have "Christmas Tree" parties. Everyone is invited to come out and cut down every tree they can find -- which are invading the prairie. Typically, these invaders are eastern red cedar trees (Juniperus virginiana). Hence, the "Christmas tree" moniker.

    Below is a posting for one of the events listed on the Iowa Prairie Network website.
    *********************************
    The 7th Annual Loess Hills Christmas Event

    December 9 (Saturday),12:30pm - 4:30 p.m,
    Country Homestead B&B located in Turin, Iowa

    Cut a free Christmas tree and help restore Loess Hills prairie in the bargain. The Zahrts invite you to bring your saw and come enjoy a "Loess Hills Christmas in the Hills", at Country Homestead B&B, one mile north of Turin.
    ***************************
    A giant bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa) standing tall on a prairie savanna, however, would most definitely infer age -- a regional thing.

    IronBelly

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The origional Poster is in GA in the south age is generally marked by large broad leaved trees in my experience and spanish moss (which wouldn't look to good on a young tree IMO). I agree with the hardscape idea, a good stone wall could be made to look well aged in little time IMO.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Another Georgian browsing through, Nativenute. Thanks for the question. I've really benefited from the answers, particularly those which have you so excited. I'm going to be thinking hard about edges. My own thoughts on this have been less deep and basically related to observed style.

    One which was alluded to early on, was that older gardens typically tend to have simplified themselves over the years. Owners got older and less able to fuss over them, bigger stronger plants crowded the others out, et cetera.

    Lack of perfection definitely. The paths are uneven, and the mint is running all down the side of the house.

    Old-timey design styles, with tough old-timey passalong plants, many of which did come from around the world, especially SE Asia. But also lots of our wonderful natives--those which had already been grown in domestic gardens for generations, not those that required control by herbicides not yet invented.

    And as far as style goes as a component of age, not the current "natural" look. There was all too much nature to be beaten back outside the garden before it took back the land.

    Context was discussed but not specifically in terms of climate--older gardens, and what they offered the homes in them, would have been formed even more by climate than they are now. I.e., homes in sultry, pre-air conditioner Georgia have those old pecans arching over for a very important reason. But the woods were cleared out for a space around them not only for farming but also to allow breezes through and to be less hospitable for mosquitoes, et cetera.

    And a positive note for attaining the look we're after sooner rather than later--as ironbelly points out, maturity is a component of age, and many shrubs will attain a nice look of settled-in maturity after only about five years or so here with our long growing season. Not all plants in an old garden are oaks. (By the way, have you noticed yet how FAST trees really grow? Even so-called "slow" ones? Little spindly things I left just two years ago to occupy space for a while now require a chainsaw to take down. These forums really let me down on that one.)

    Happy gardening.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Ironbelly,

    I understand your point about the grasses maturing the landscape quickly. I agree with it.

    I do see them as a time period fad of the last 10-15 years in my area and the one I was in prior to this. It does depend on what is meant by age, as you said.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "Pinus (pine). For strength in the young garden composition, for a rapidly gathering sense of age and dignity in the garden, these are the trees."

    --Schenk, COMPLETE SHADE GARDENER

    He goes on to give a list of pines with spreading growth habits and says when "pruned for line" these can appear mature as early as 12 years old.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    bboy, have you ever been to the south? Pines grow like Dandelions there, and logging companies clear an area out of hardwoods than plant pines back in because they grow so quickly, The problem is that they grow and look young, my father planted pines in Alabama to cover his hardpan property andwhile they have grown well they still look young, they are 8 year old trees that are 35 feet tall, but they still look like 8 year old trees, they put on girth so quickly that the bark is always beeing cycled through and it doesn't develope any character at all, No matter what the species its either going to stay small and not look mature or its going to grow too fast to look mature at anytime within the next 10 years, although they would be good for the soil.

    Check out this slink on soil treatment durring development and tree growth and let us know if it applies to you.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    What a fantastic article. Thank you so much for sharing it.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    it has turned into interesting discussion. Couple of random thoughts after reading the posts:
    I do not think that size matters per se, I think the mature look matters. So if you are looking for shrubs and small trees, then as long as they are mature size it will look like they have been there a long time.
    If you want these trees and shrubs to get to their ultimate size the fastest you have to feed and water them regularly. I can tell you that this will make a huge difference.
    and like above mentioned, they have to blend. So you will most likely need to plant the shrubs closer than advisable (like lots of landscape people do) and then later when they start crowding each other, take some of them out.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    This may well be a "personal definition", as oxymoronic as that concept is, but maturity comes about one step at a time as does aging. A photograph perporting to demonstrate maturing that has concrete diamonds in it needs some explanation. Concrete and ornamental grass may be a good way to date a trend but this does not constitute maturity although it may put aging in a poor light.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The Skin Horse had lived longer in the nursery than any of the others. He was so old that his brown coat was bald in patches and showed the seams underneath, and most of the hairs in his tail had been pulled out to string bead necklaces. He was wise, for he had seen a long succession of mechanical toys arrive to boast and swagger, and by-and-by break their mainsprings and pass away, and he knew that they were only toys, and would never turn into anything else. For nursery magic is very strange and wonderful, and only those playthings that are old and wise and experienced like the Skin Horse understand all about it.

    "What is REAL ?" asked the Rabbit one day, when they were lying side by side near the nursery fender, before Nana came to tidy the room. "Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?"

    "Real isn't how you are made," said the Skin Horse. "It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real."

    "Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.

    "Sometimes," said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. "When you are Real you don't mind being hurt."

    "Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?"

    "It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have been carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

    "I suppose you are Real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive. But the Skin Horse only smiled. "The Boy's Uncle made me real," he said. "That was a great many years ago; but once you are Real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always."
    The Velveteen Rabbit, Margery Williams

    I know, I know. It's about relationships, not landscapes. But I think the Skin Horse understands a thing or two. Perhaps the obvious answer is that you can't mechanically engineer age.

    We tend to buy a home, live in it for 3 or 4 or 7 years, and move on. For most of us there's no sense of legacy or history. We manufacture a stage set, not having the patience or the time, or dare I say it the love, to tell our own story in the places we live. Engineered "age" would always be engineered. It wouldn't be real, and I would know it. Exquisite form, craft, material, design can be appreciated in themselves and more so, if they function beautifully in their setting. They gain "age" as they have their own stories to tell.

    I guess I'd want to change the question. I'd ask what the Rabbit asks, "What is real?"

    Very, very "fuzzy" thinking this morning No practical use whatsoever.

    Wellspring