I was going to comment on that as well, Ink. But not for the same reason. I find it interesting that this topic, in one form or another, comes up about every month or two - how "newbies" should behave. I also find it interesting that rarely do the professionals (and I am using the word VERY loosely to also include many experienced and helpful amateurs - can we invent a word to include both?) contribute to that topic. Instead, it seems that the professionals either are quite patient and helpful in answering newbie questions, or simply ignore them. I have been very grateful to the help I've received on what are often probably very naive questions and I greatly appreciate the fact that at least some people here are willing to help others - at any level.

As an educator, I believe in the old adage "the only bad question is the one that is not asked". Everyone has to start somewhere, why not here? In many cases, asking a simple question here, without having "done their homework" first, has led a poster to the understanding that their question is much more involved than they initially realized. Isn't that in itself a valuble service? In some cases the answers help the poster figure out WHAT to read or WHERE to find things or HOW to hire a landscaper. These are valuable things to learn.

I would not hesitate to ask the same questions face-to-face that I ask here. Similarly, if someone asks me a question about ... let's say the antibiotic they have been prescribed ... I don't tell them to go read a microbiology textbook before they ask the question. I answer the question and I don't mind answering the question.

If you don't like the question, just skip the thread, as Eric said.

Earlier I wrote: "I think if a person were asking the question face to face, he or she would never go into the conversation completely in the dark. It would be too embarrassing and rude"

Of course, conversation and expressing interest in someone's area of expertise is always welcome (where would cocktail parties be without them!) Asking specific questions of friends and family who have special knowlege is also given.

However, as an example, I still think it is rude to say to a professional chef, "I'm going to be giving a dinner party for 50 people in a week or so. I've never even scrambled an egg before or cracked open a cookbook. Can you just tell me what I should cook and when and how to cook it and how to serve it and all that stuff."

This, to my mind, is very different from saying, "I'm giving a large dinner party. I've cooked for family and friends for years and know a few good dishes that everyone seems to like. But I've never cooked for 50 people. What things should I keep in mind when expanding my recipes for that many. And do you have any thoughts on a general approach...say would I be better off serving buffet style? Would cold dishes work more easily? Can I really do this with only a double oven and large refridgerator, or maybe I should hire out?"

To me, there is a world of difference there.
Patty

Other interested parties are constantly promoting gardening as impossibly easy. The core market for garden centers is said to be middle-aged, successful working people with new houses, disposable income and little spare time. To me this adds up to

1) I think gardening (and landscaping) questions are always simple

2) I have money for a computer and know how to use it to get to the site

3) I don't have time to do my own research

Nursery trades magazine article that gave above profile (as I remember it now) of core shopper was about making nursery signs. Said the signs needed to get to the point and express it in seconds, because that was all the time the typical reader was going to be willing to put into it.

i've got 12 credit hours in LD, but that was 25 years ago, do they still count? i think there is alot more respect given to the LD pros on this chat than professionals on other chats i have visited.
But if newbies don't ask questions, how are the pros going to baffle us with their brilliance?

Ink,
When I began reading this forum is when I got the impression that it was mainly for professionals, with a lot of more theroetical discussion of design (although I REALLY enjoy the "What's good/bad about this design" post or some title like that) and talking about the frustrations in dealing w/clients. However, I stopped reading for about 9 months or so while the house was being built and we were moving. Now I've begun reading again, and I don't see (or perhaps don't notice) as many such posts. Perhaps there are fewer "pros" posting, perhaps I know more and don't feel as threatened (a completely plausible idea), or perhaps I got the wrong idea in the beginning. I DO have a difficult time remembering board names (no faces to associate with the names). Anyway, that is why I mentioned that the forum seems "friendlier" than it used to be. But it could be just me. I don't want anyone to think I was being insulting. It was only my impression, and believe me, I can easily get the wrong impression.

Patty,
You stated the situation very well, but said what I was trying to say. I agree completely.

Moon

Though this isn't a recent post, I'd like to add some more "newbie" perspective:

I've been posting and lurking in GardenWeb for several years, and I occasionally gravitate to this forum when I need some perspective on the bigger picture (in a landscape, aesthetically speaking). Notice I didn't say "when I need advice," because I've never asked a question here. I tend to fall into the category of people who get annoyed when over-eager novices, faces flushed with enthusiasm, ask questions that would take many weeks and several books worth of words to answer -- but that applies to every category of human study and endeavor, not just Landscape Design. I'm a big believer in learning at least enough about whatever subject you're interested in to figure out how ignorant you are before you start pestering people with questions.

Having said that, this forum is described on its main page, very simply, as a place "for the discussion of the technical and aesthetic issues involved in landscape and garden design." This says nothing about professional credentials, degree of expertise, or the ability to draft a design for a drainage system. Read the names of the other forums: they deal with specifics only. Unless someone was planning on turning their entire yard into a "Butterfly Garden" or "Bog Garden" or populate their yard entirely with "Roses" or "Perennials", the other forums don't help -- they're all in the micro view. The macro view -- how to put it all together -- could really only be found here, if it's to be found on GardenWeb at all.

Since most people aren't very good at figuring out how little they understand versus how much there is to know, I honestly believe the first step in helping newbies is to gently let them know how ignorant they are. That's not meant to be snarky -- this is coming from someone who is definitely still struggling with their own ignorance. I'm talking about providing them (us) with enough information up-front to make us see how much we need to learn before we can ask intelligent questions. In other words, this forum could really use a FAQ. In it you could provide reading lists, volunteer some essays, remind people that they have local libraries full of the subject matter, provide links to other relevant sites, anything!

So, my answer to your question, karinl -- "what, if you had the chance, would you suggest that gardening newbies who are undertaking landscape projects do before, or in addition to, posting questions here?" -- would be (in an ideal world) "read the FAQ."

I feel like standing up and applauding Brent and Moon_child!

This forum clearly has been hijacked by professional landscape designers. And along with that all the arrogance that goes along with it. Totally different from the Decorating forum where the majority, over 95,% are not interior designers.

If this forum were connected with the APLD then I might understand the cast system that seems to exist over here but it's not. So get over yourselves and when a newbie asks a question either skip over it and wait for another one of your profession to ask a question you deem worthy. Then you can impress each other with all your knowledge.

The first time I posted a question here wasn't long ago. I was pleased with the responses...until one person proclaimed that he was BORED with it. Had he decided that the thread should end because it did not interest HIM? And then another person said that I should be grateful that so-in-so (like I'm supposed to know who this person is) answered my question. LOL

"What goes around comes around." So, this thread has popped up again. It was, of course, the one that made we pros decide to limit our postings on the Design Forum.

Magicians we ain't. We can't turn your poorly designed house into a castle. There are times when some of you post house pictures that make me wonder why in heck you did not notice that the windows are out of proportion to the house scale before you purchased it. Then, there are the ugly slope problems. Question, do any of you study the exterior of a property when house hunting? Do you look for problems that might need costly correction? Drainage, soil condition, need for long hedge/shrub border to block view of neighbor's pit bulls?

So...you get upset if we gently mention or ask...why the heck did you buy this problem? The bottom line of my thinking is that whatever I say on this Forum will upset the newbies. Sorry, 'bout that. I have to be standing on a site physically in order to figure out a design that will correct the problems you purchased. When house hunting/building...think ahead, think ahead....think ahead.

moon_child...I just read your last post above mine. If you say these people are friendlier then I shudder to think what they were like before! You have been here longer than I, but in the past month or so since I started reading this forum I have come to the conclusion that this place is far more hostile to questions by non-professionals than you would find on the Decorating forum. But I was forewarned, there have been posts on the Decorating forum warning us what it's like over here.

"I'm curious: what kind of feelings do these "I'm a new gardener who wants to landscape" questions elicit from YOU, and what, if YOU had the chance, would YOU suggest that gardening newbies who are undertaking landscape projects do before, or in addition to, posting questions here? "

Karin, you're assuming (sad that it is a valid assumption) that the people who frequent this forum are professional landscape designers. Just look at how you phrased your question. "So, my fellow professionals, How do YOU deal with all these ignorant little people and their silly questions?" You want to know What feelings does this elicit from you? Are you seriously asking people how they feel about newbie questions? Is it really so bad you now need to go into therapy? How dare newbies post questions here, is that what you're really trying to say?

Look, you can patrol a forum all you want. But people pop in and out every day. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to regulate it. Just accept that new people on this forum are going to show up and ignorantly ask a stupid question (or stupid in your eyes). The best you can do is to create a Frequently Asked Questions section and then be prepared for most newcomers not to even notice it.

Flying flower,

This thread got crazy in all kinds of ways but if you go back to the very first sentence, Karin states, "We have had a plethora of people bringing their questions to the forum and either confessing or showing a complete lack of gardening knowledge." I emphasize, "A LACK OF GARDENING KNOWLEDGE"...that is very different from a lack of landscaping know-how.

The point Karin was trying to raise, I believe, is that a lack of gardening knowledge is a significant handicap when one is trying to do their own landscaping. IF one is fairly competent at gardening THEN absolutely take a swing at designing a landscape. But the frustration comes when having to explain the most basic of things about plants...for example, that they grow...while also trying to address design issues.

As a gardener yourself you know how many years it has taken for you to develop your skill and knowledge set. Karin's question was how can one possilby impart that information along with responding to a design question in one or two posts? You see how difficult and frustrating?

If you find my posts above I state that I feel I am knowledgable about gardening and plants but have little design know-how. I come here and read and put in my two cents trying to develop my aesthetic eye. I absolutely believe that we design newbies belong here. Those new to gardening also will learn a lot here...however, my personal feeling is that one should become familiar with the basics before attempting the advanced.

See my second post where I make an analogy to asking a professional chef a question. Granted, many here are not, in fact, professional designers, but there are some who possess a grand amount of wisdom and insight into the subject. It saddens to me to think that they no longer come here and contribute because of this issue. We are all the worse in that case.

Patty

Flyingflower: I am a newbie to gardening and have been visiting this forum for over two years, though I rarely post here. I agree with moon_child that this forum is much improved in terms of its response to people new to gardening. In fact, I remember when someone in the Kitchen forum once referenced a thread over here to show much nicer people at the Kitchen forum were. Other forums picked this up and there was a huge brouhaha. It is my own assessment that people a) like to create such "us vs them" scenarios b) these kind of rumors tend to perpetuated themselves, in that people then become overly sensitive or defensive to feedback and c) people frequently do not take the time to upgrade their information. There is much less of the behavior that started all of that then there used to be.

Garden Web was instrumental in helping us to build our new home and I have participated in several forums here. However, gardening and landscaping is not like plumbing or framing. It is much more difficult to answer what plant should I put here than it is to advise on what kind of siding may work best in a given situation. I think the comparative difficulty in providing answers in this forum leads to comparatively more frustrations than in other forums.

My experience has been that people generally are overwhelmed when they come to these forums and therefore are looking for quick answers to help manage that anxiety. This desire to change a situation with a minimal amount of work can often end in irritation for all parties involved. In the natural medicine field, I frequently have people coming to me looking for a magic bullet that will effortless allow them to drop 50 lbs or make them look 10 years younger or cure cancer or whatever. When they find that they have to exercise or invest in a protocol or change their lifestyle... I am sure you can see where I am going.

Another consideration is that in every forum I have ever visited there is always a hierarchy - those who have been there for a long time, those that have been there for a moderate amount of time, and those who are new. The conversations between these "generations" mirror to a starting degree the converstations between generations in real life. Generally the issue of respect or lack thereof is a key issue.

I believe that newbies would have a better experience if they considered each forum as a community and took the time to try and understand its dynamics. Then their expectations would be in alignment with what the forum can reasonably offer. Also, there will always be "trolls" who are provocative or rude. To perpetuate information that the whole forum is negative on the basis of the behavior of one or two individuals is, to me, inappropriate.

If you're going to compare landscaping and decorating,and their related forums, think about the following:

Most people have a fair idea of what a decent home interior should look like, and are familiar with what's available in the way of flooring, furniture, cabinets, fixtures, etc. Posting a photo of a room with most of the above already in place (and probably professionally installed as well) and asking about wall color or style of window treatment suggestions is something that most people can take a stab at answering with reasonable results.

Many people have no idea where to even begin landscaping a property, not through any fault of their own, but because they haven't been exposed to good design.

To make matters worse, the poster may know little about plants, hardscape, and other available materials, and zilch about the functional and aesthetic aspects that must be considered.

Posting a picture of the front of your house and asking how you should landscape the front yard is like posting a picture of a new house that's framed and has the windows installed, and asking how you should finish off the interior. It's a big question, not easily answered.

If you don't like the professional designers or experienced amateurs on the forum having opinions about your landscape, you can take the advice of well meaning but uninformed newbies who may have less experience than you, with predictable results.

I've seen MANY threads here start out with a bang, with terrific advice and ideas, and end up with a whimpering discussion of the pros and cons of one particular shrub and its suitability for the area in question. Then we get a photo of EXACTLY what the OP came in saying they wanted to do in the first, maybe with one shrub moved a little to the left.

Swanoir...it's that hierarchy you spoke of that bothers me. When a person hangs around a forum for years they will become familiar with frequently asked questions. But that shouldn't give them the right to dictate what others who've joined after them can ask. After all, when they were new someone had to put up with their newbie questions too.

I don't want to force anyone to read endlessly long FAQs looking for their question. And being that this is a design forum the questions are going to be unique to that person's landscaping. When you're excited to get started on a project or you've got tight time constraints you don't want to spend hours perusing threads in order to get a feel for the complexion of the community. They're probabaly better off not knowing otherwise they may never get up the nerve to post! Notice to all who are new to the forum: Please Tip Toe around the Prima Donnas. Advising newcomers to lurk for awhile (and for how long?) before posting their first question makes a person feel like an outsider right from start. Anyone should feel comfortable asking their question, as ignorant of gardening and landscaping as it may seem. Gardenweb forums ARE for the lay people.... All of us landscape- design-know-nothings who have no where else to go to ask our lame questions! I repeat, it's not as if this forum were connected with a professional organization. Keep this and all Gardenweb forums an INVITING place for ALL.

Thanks for stirring the pot Karin. I love it.

Actually gweirdo it is the butterfly that is doing the stirring by putting words into karin's mouth thereby changing the direction of a thread that karin started in good faith. The reputation this forum has for straight talking is what makes it and no one need apologize for lifting it above the general dross of "thank you for sharing" that permeates the rest of the gw. Sure, nowhere does it say that this place is for pro's only but neither does it say that we cannot participate. When Nandina (a woman of the female variety) offers respect to the advice of David Feix, advice that in another quarter would be highly valued and yet seemed to be by-passed totally by the flutterer, boredom or frustration might be expected. Is it possible that frequenters of this forum actually prefer to ignore experience and that they prefer to make their own mistakes aided and abetted by guesses? Or are we lined up to listen to the lawn doctor?

"This forum clearly has been hijacked by professional landscape designers."

Hijacked? My feelings are that the talented landscape professionals that contribute to this forum are one of the things that make (made?) it special.

- Brent

Brent, I agree with you. This forum has definitely not been hijacked by pros. To the contrary, some of the talented pros who contributed much in the past seemed to have grown weary of this place and no longer participate here. That is everyone's loss. I am grateful to those who still participate here at the end of a long day of working with clients and managing projects. I learn from experienced hobbyists and pros at this forum, but I must say that the pros have taught me so much and keep me coming back from time to time.

This pros versus amateurs discussion really does get tiring. How many times per year do we have to have this same discussion? If people want only feel good answers, there are plenty of places to get them. If people want honest input on what makes designs work or not, this is a good place to be.

Vicki
(a gardening hobbyist)

I'm surprised that anyone would object to the participation of professional designers on the forum. Would you feel the same way on the decorating forum if an experienced interior decorator or designer took the time to give you advice about your project? How about a real plumber or electrician telling you (for free) how to fix a problem you're having, on one of the home repair forums?

Without the more experienced posters who participate here, this would become like the other forums where a homeowner can post a really pathetic garden, and get compliments on it all day long. If that's what you want when you post, you need to say so at the start. "Here's my garden, I only want to hear good things, so if you think it's really bad, please don't respond, just tell me if I should use pink or yellow flowers here. Thank you."

If you want help making it better, you need to be prepared to be told some of your choices were poor ones. We learn by our mistakes. Imagine in elementary school if your teachers didn't mark your wrong answers, but just told you it was a good effort, to spare your feelings.

The recent departure of some of the old regulars has already changed the quality of the discussion here, even if it has become warmer and fuzzier. However, it's still the only forum I've seen that has meaningful discussions about design.

A spin doctor has now twisted my words to the point where now no professional designers should be allowed to participate on this forum. Good grief. What part of "Keep this and all Gardenweb forums an INVITING place for ALL" did you not understand?

"This forum clearly has been hijacked by professional landscape designers. And along with that all the arrogance that goes along with it. Totally different from the Decorating forum where the majority, over 95,% are not interior designers."

If you did a poll of the last 100 posters here, I'm guessing you would find that pros make up less than 10%. The rest are avid gardeners who want to learn more about design, and share what they have already learned, along with newbies.

Should we do a poll?

I'm a little astonished that this thread awoke the "pro vs amateur" discussion which is indeed tiring, and am even reeling a little from Nandina's accusation that it is responsible for sending the pros away.

My question was meant to be about gardening knowledge, and I appreciate those of you who understood that, and apologize to others if I worded it less than optimally. Gardening knowledge is something that both pros and amateurs here have, in spades.

My hackles go up when someone breezily announces their ignorance about gardening, shows no intention of alleviating it themselves, and asks for input to (or design of) a landscaping project that requires gardening knowledge. Irritation can spring up over landscaping queries that show lack of initiative, but this forum is here for those kinds of queries, and so I can deal with that more easily. It's not here for gardening instruction. My question was to see whether others were sitting at their computers growling with the same irritation, or whether they had some tricks for overcoming it or some perpsective that allowed them not to feel irritated at all.

That was all. The pros vs. amateurs thing is something that interests me, but it did not cross my mind on this thread.

Flyingflower, you have an interesting way with words.

"Keep this and all Gardenweb forums an INVITING place for ALL." Very nice. I quite agree.

"This forum clearly has been hijacked by professional landscape designers. And along with that all the arrogance that goes along with it. Totally different from the Decorating forum where the majority, over 95,% are not interior designers." Inviting? Or insulting?

"...in the past month or so since I started reading this forum I have come to the conclusion that this place is far more hostile to questions by non-professionals than you would find on the Decorating forum."

"Karin, you're assuming (sad that it is a valid assumption) that the people who frequent this forum are professional landscape designers." Sadly uninviting?

Who's doing the twisting?

You're not going to convince me to side with you nor vice versa. So I see little point in continuing on with this.

Warning and Disclaimer: The following post is one person's opinion only, it does not represent the views or opinions of others who post or lurk on the Landscape Design Forums and should not be taken as the beginning of an inter-forum flame war. Please feel free to think I am an obnoxious so-and-so for stating my opinion in this matter and realize that most others on this forum would probably agree with you.

Anyway, since this forum is being denigrated for not being as inviting as the Decorating Forum I must say that I personally find the Decorating Forum to be profoundly sad and alienating. It seems that 95% of the posts (those non-designers I guess) seem to be from people who are either ready to rush off to Home Depot to buy a load of crap or those who have already high-tailed it to Home Depot for their allotment of crap and who want the validation of others by asking for their opinons about said crap which doesn't matter because it's....crap.

The Decorating Forum can only hope that it's hijacked by professional designers sometime soon.

Anyway, to repsond to karin's original post I think that the problem does not lie with the age old Pro vs. Amateur squabble but rather with the Gardener vs. Designer tug-of-war. There is a profound disconnect about what landscape design means. To over-simplify - is landscape design about picking plants or is it about creating a space? A bit of both obviously. A lot of so-called newbie posts are about picking plants though which can seem a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

Oh, flyingflower, I did think it was rude and dismissive of someone to say they were bored with your post and the responses you received. I thought the discussion was interesting and valuable.

In answer to the original question asked here:
'What ... would you suggest that gardening newbies who are undertaking landscape projects do before, or in addition to, posting questions here?'

Those questions that have to do with gardening issues such as what companions to plant with some other garden material could be directed to the Forum where a question is frequently welcomed, i.e, Trees and Shrubs, Daylilies, Hydrangeas.

Among good resources for beginners are University Horticulture sites appropriate to the zone in which the OP lives. Many have basic landscape principles online as well as information on appropriate plant material and gardening methods. We know about them, the novice might not. Should we tell?

A bit of direction is more helpful than any amount of biting comments either directed toward the offender or in general. Scroll past any questions that annoy.

I thought the departure of professionals was related to the alleged proclamation of ownership of copyright use by the new owners of GW, or was that just coincidence?

Nell

I'm not sure, but one of the complaints I heard was the advertising pop-ups and slow loading time, but those have not been a problem for me with DSL Pro.

accordian, I agree with you. I haven't visited the decorating forum in a long time, but I remember there were a lot of mutual congratulations flying back and forth on some pretty tacky decorating. In between, there was some useful information as well. Same as here. If not for the more experienced posters on this forum, it wouldn't be worth reading at all.

Before anyone jumps in with a defense of buying cheap junk to decorate with, you can do a lot better with flea market and junk shop finds and some ingenuity, so it's not a given that you have to be able to shop at Baker furniture to have a charming home.

As far as re-directing a poster to a more appropriate forum like the New to Gardening or Shrubs or Perennials to brush up on their gardening knowledge, sometimes people are insulted and huffy when that happens. Sometimes I see a post that I know I should pass by, but it's like a car wreck, I can't take my eyes off it. LOL

foxesearth, you have said what I meant to say better than I did!

The point I tried to make was that responders can change their own response, but aren't going to be able to change the nature of the requests. Why try?

Their own response can be nothing (no one is compelled to answer anything), or directions to a more appropriate forum, or directions to good resources, as you said.

If a few get huffy about a polite suggestion, well - I would guess that most would take the advice. If not - at least one saves oneself from the feeling of being sucked dry.

saypoint, amen about the decorating forum.

Oooh, is there going to be a rumble between the Decorating Forum and the Landscape Design Forum? Paint brushes and trowels at dawn? We'll hurl compost and they'll throw wallpaper paste? Hey, sounds like fun, I'm there!

As for those seeking advice here and elsewhere, someone once said, "If you want the honey, don't kick over the beehive."

Patty

Compost? How 'bout manure? They dissed us first. Design Smackdown. LOL

Okay - I know I'm 'raising' this yet again. Sorry about that as some will undoubtedly be annoyed. That not withstanding, I'm going to add my thots.

Gardenweb - in all its forums - has, in my experience and understanding, been a place to share. (Pardon me for using that, what someone seemed to consider, dreadful word!) Many professionals with vast experience in one area or another freely and kindly offer their advice and expertise and they do so in a polite and gracious manner. Unfortunately many here - professional or not - do not.

When I first posted here, my question was very graciously answered by Saypoint. As I was continuing to develop the necessary knowledge to deal with this property, I continued to read and was frankly appalled at the rudeness and (as someone else mentioned) arrogance displayed on this forum. VERY different from most GW forums. One particular thread sticks in my mind even today (and this is at least a year back). It concerned how everyone wanted *free advice* and weren't willing to pay a design fee yadda yadda. Yah - and so? This is a forum - advice IS free. If you don't care to *share for free* then don't. Your choice but there is absolutely NO reason for rudeness/brusque remarks or other such useless & downputting drivel. Remarks such as *saved from being sucked dry* are soooooooooo "I'm much better than/more knowledgeable than/way above thee".

Neither is it at all appropriate to denigrate the Home Decorating forum. There is much wisdom and a fund of ideas there. Moreover remarks about 'Home Depot Decorating' are truly over the top in rudeness. Perhaps you can all afford a better quality, as can I, but that does not give anyone the right to pass judgment on those who may not be so able. Where I live now, there isn't a whole lot of choice and had I not the ability to travel to a larger city and were I decorating, then I'd be severely stuck with a couple of very average stores and HD as my 'decor selection choices'. Totally inappropriate and an example of the tone this forum takes on all too often.

ALL the forums are for sharing ideas/thots and (preferably polite) opinions. If you desire only to chat with each other on some 'higher level' for which us lesser folk don't meet your criteria, then create a private/by invitation only forum (which I don't think you can do here) where you won't have to deal with all these pesky questions from newbies.

And, as someone else mentioned, create an FAQ to which you can refer those, what you consider to be, basic questions.

My opinion from one who asked one question, then lurked here awhile to learn more but became totally put off with the tone generally demonstrated so ceased to do so. I stopped in tonight for the first time in ages but see little has changed --- unfortunately.

Two things, If the "Professionals" here find the others irritating, why dont they change the name of the forum to"Professional designers.." or some such. I am not a professional designer, I am a professional artist who gardens. It has amazed me how often "Landscapers" have committed horrifying mistakes, Im my opinion, on inocent gardens.When I see knock out gardens, they often belong to some of the old timers, who really know thier stuff, they are proud of thir gardens, but wouldnt tell another gardener, that something is "Good or Bad" design. I feel there is a disconect between folks who could be a little bit over proud of thier credentials, and folks in the trenches creating beautiful gardens for the love of gardening, who happen to poses inate good design sense. I also feel like thats why there is winter, so you can read and research, on your own and not ask busy people things you could figure out on your own (Possibly by Reading the lable on the plant) but when it comes to anoying assumptions and unwillingness to think out side the box, I have had alot more annoyance from comments made by "Professionals" than those in the trenches for 40 years. the other thing really relates to art. any one who does any form of art, visual, or otherwise will have to admit that things trend in and out. what was a big consumate NO NO last decade, will be the darling of style this one. NOTE: color combinations. I know I joke alot with my friends about how tacky and "Beginerish" mulching with Barkdust looks, and no serious gardener in our circle would do it, as long as there was any other type of mulch on the planet. but how many "nice" "Yards" in "Nice Neighborhoods" have that same stuff, put there by well meaning land scapers. We just shake our heads and say tacky tacky tacky, but we have to acnowledge that its not just a matter of taste, its style, asthetics, and mostly the gardening heard you travel in. otheres of us, myself included, who are serious gardeners, plant collectors, and confident designers, are not likely to surrender our asthetic design principles over just because some one who is a professional says they think its the way to go. I will help any one who asks a reasonable question. I wont share plants with them if one time I see that they dont make any attempt to follow what you tell them about the plants needs to survive. This is not asthetics, its biology, there is a difference. One is the law of nature, the other is a set of aggreements, of which some are universal, and others are trends, personal taste, etc.

I clicked on this thread because I'm somewhat of a gardening newbie, myself. I have several books on gardening and some nice plants and trees, but I'm definitely not as knowledgable as many.

I clicked on the link expecting someone to say something nice or helpful. Instead was a jaded and very unfriendly post about how smart and experienced the poster was and how annoying newbies are for asking questions.

The newbies do think they are doing their research by coming here and asking more knowledgable people for advice or guidance.

You can point newbies to references, form an answer to the question, or just not bother to respond at all. No one is twisting your arm.

From a third party perspective of a "newbie", the post was pretty arrogant and rude.

I have to weigh in on this.
I have found this forum very helpful and friendly. Sometimes a little blunt but I love honesty.
I think we all have to remember that communication is 85% non-verbal so what is left (15%) is words. So our communication lacks the nuances of facial expression tone etc.
Now I am an experienced gardener with good taste. I love this forum because it is helpful to get other people's advice, always get a second opinion.
Over the years I have paid thousands of dollars for garden designs. Currently I am employing a designer for my primary residence. I do appreciate her design skilland it is costing me dearly.
Yet having this forum to bounce different ideas in is a great treat.
As far as the professional landscape designers, I think you all should consider this a way to make this world a nicer more beautiful place. This is your opportunity to influence newbies towards a design and less tack. Rise to the occasion and bring taste back to the suburbs. I would like you to put red neon bark mulch on the extinct list.

I am a novice and a lurker on this formum but here is my ol' 2 cents worth:

1. this amateur vs. pro thing is a nonissue. And getting very tiresome. I do not see the pros dissing the posters. They are allowed to be annoyed if some lazy person wants their garden designed for them with no work on their part. If you notice most times "the pros" politely steer them to more appropriate forums, answer questions generically, or ignore the post altogether. If a novice is truly trying to learn they are very helpful. Yes, I prefer the term novice -- my personal quirk.

2. Unless I missed the point, very possible, the intial comment about the Home Dec forum was not so much to point out that "They are bad. And we are superior to them." but that the point of this forum is not be be a love-fest but for honest critique. I cannot find DESIGN info elsewhere in the forums. The comments about the smackdown are tongue-in-cheek and intended to be humorous. I also must weigh in that the overdone "Southern" yard redo was not to my taste at all. It seemed pointlessly overdone, gaudy and frankly vulgar.

3. This can be a somewhat intimidating forum at times but if it causes me to think about my problem and frankly generate solutions for myself that is a good use of my time. No one is here to hand it to me. I come here because I am learning. I appreciate what others pro or amateur share of their own free will. I am a big girl and if I post something that is awful I want someone to stop me before I goof up. I don't want to be told it is wonderful when it isn't.

4. This is not the only forum with "rudeness". I was flamed massively on the herb forum. I was trying to pose a question/comment humorously and some overly serious types got their shorts in a wad. OK, so they were rude. I dealt with it. Now, I've wasted enough of everyone's time on this, my lunchhour is over and I gotta get back to work. I love this forum.

Maria

Well Said Maria.

I think if I had read this post before I posted my "newbie" question, it would have made me intimidated about asking. I did get very thoughtful and helpful responses to my post and am very grateful for that.

Everyone starts out new at something sometime and it was nice to get encouragement and some solid advice. It helped to keep my spirits up and my interest high. It has turned out to be quite a fun learning process.

beenie: your post titled "very green gardener needs landscape design help!" is not at all the type of post that prompted Karin's original post here. You showed that you thought about the problem, you participated in the discussion and your questions were focused on one area of your landscape. These are exactly the types of "newbie" post that everybody welcomes...well I cannot speak for "everybody", but I welcome them.

The tough ones are the "I have never gardened before, I just purchased my first home with no landscaping, tell me exactly what I need to do to transform my entire property into a magazine cover quality garden this year with a budget of $200" type posts. That might be extreme but some post are not too far off.

My take is that if you want to be good at garden design you should start by learning how to garden.

- Brent

I find this entire post interesting. I have been watching it since it's inception. As a design n00b myself, I was hoping to find some really good advice about how to further my knowledge.

The original post, while maintaining a tone of slight (and I honestly mean slight) arrogence, poses a perfectly reasonable and practical question. Broken down, this is what I consider the gist of it:

Lots of people with little to no knowledge of gardening or landscape design post here. To adqueately answer their questions and to communicate the knowledge the "landscape design forum regulars" to them, would require a tremendous amount of work and time, and therefore it is not practical for each "regular" to answer each "n00b" question (particularly when there are about 10 "n00b" questions each day).

So, how do the "regulars" effectively communicate to the "n00bs" the necessary steps to take to answer their question, without spending a lifetime writting responses on this forum?

To me, it's a valid question. It's hard to believe the response the original post has received. In fact, I find the original post to be more in the flavor of "how do the pro's help the n00bs better" while nearly every single reply has been a debate on the topic of "pro's vs n00bs" (or some slight variant).

Again, the responses seem to be 180* from the original post...

The a priori of the original post is simplistic - unless I misunderstood it seems to break everyone down into know-nothings and know-it-alls. Little allowance is made for the large gray area in the middle. No one is forcing anyone to post to or read this forum, so I don't really understand the point of the post. If you don't want to read the "How do I...?" posts, don't open them!!!

I have no problem either learning from those more experienced or helping those who are new. In fact, I enjoy both - or else I would not be here.

I have posted a few questions on this forum and received very helpful answers. I don't post as many design questions as I would like to post because I don't know who is professional and who isn't and I don't know enough about design to know whether their advice is good or bad; so I don't know what to do with the advice I get. Does that make any sense? I know what looks bad or tacky to me and I know what looks good to me but I don't know how to achieve it in my own garden. I guess that is typical of a novice designer. (I, too, dislike the term "newbie" LOL). I enjoy reading the forum and seeing the pictures.

I can empathize with the frustration of trying to give information. I give seminars on healthy lifestyle--living with Type II diabetes, heart disease, etc. I love to help people learn to eat and live healthier but it is frustrating to have someone ask for advice and then refute every single suggestion I make with "reasons" why it can't possibly work for THEM.
VG

The answers provided throughout this thread have forced me to rethink my question. I appreciate the mental exercise this process has provided!

I was specifically trying to put my finger on why some posters so quickly hit my irritation button, and why I was willing, in contrast, to put in hours to help others. I thought it was gardening newbies who most consistently rubbed me the wrong way. But there were too many exceptions to that rule, both gardening novices who were a pleasure to help, and experienced gardeners who made design discussions a pain. So as I've read through the answers on this thread, and watched some concurrent threads unfold, I've realized it isn't the newbie gardener questions that I wanted to address; it's the attitude of the questionERs.

The ones that either drive me nuts or cause me to pass on their thread (and who generate similar responses from others so I'm apparently not alone in this) are the ones who come here not to learn, but as an alternative to learning. The ones who are not interested in doing any homework, but wish to assign homework to others.

In contrast, when a person is here to get themselves up the learning curve, the forum is welcoming and helpful no matter what level they're at to start with.

My question was asked from the perspective of a forum regular who comes here mostly to post answers, and so I see why it came across as arrogant. But forum regulars are a funny breed, here in LD and everywhere else. We are people with knowledge, (whether we are delusional or excessively modest about the amount we have) and a desire to use it. But more to the point, we have almost a compulsion to learn more, or to exercise that part of our brain that thinks about our subject. We do that through the mechanism of new questions that generate discussion. When questions don't generate discussion, the regulars don't get their fix of brain exercise. I think this is true of both pros and amateurs, just that different levels of discussion give us our fix of mental challenge. Kind of like me going for a bike ride with Lance Armstrong.... In short, forum regulars need the newbies as much as the newbies need the regulars. It's more of a partnership than a hierarchy. There is a hierarchy of knowledge, but not a hierarchy of people.

What we were getting a lot of on the forum at the time I asked this question were a people whose questions weren't going to provide good discussion, and the forum seems to instinctively recognize that quality and not respond to it. I wondered if there was some way to help those people ask better questions so that (a) they would get better answers, and (b) the forum would get its fix of better discussions. Indeed, mine was not the first posting seeking a better quality of question. It is an arrogant question in that it suggests a hierarchy among question askers and forum regulars. But it is also about keeping the learning community healthy and alive, which is a collective benefit.

One current thread is titled "What I did with what I learned" and I don't think there is a better way to describe what kind of process best serves everyone on the forum, both regulars and new posters. Having been able to put my finger on that is extremely valuable for me, for my own mental development and in terms of making my time on the forum well spent. Thank you for the many perspectives that helped me do this.

Well I admit that you all scare me on this forum so I don't post much, but I've been reading it for years. I have learned to read back posts and get a feel for the different forums and many do feel and "speak" differently. Maybe many newbies are like myself and don't have a clue that there is a field of study for landscape design. When I first started gardening 13 years ago, I knew I needed to know something, but I didn't know what. I pulled books and looked at the pictures. The next year I pulled them again and actually read the text.

Prior to the Internet, many of us had very limited access to this type of information. To go back to the OP, sometimes just a direction to a different forum would help. I had gardened for several years before really having much understanding of my soil. I read our local garden guru in the paper and followed his advice, which until two years ago, was to nuke everything in sight. I didn't know. If you look up landscaping in my local yellow pages, there are tons of listings for lawn services. We are now seeing design services, but it wasn't always that way. I've never known anyone who used a landscape designer or had professional installations done.

For me in those earlier years, a garden and a landscape meant the same thing. Now, I realize I have a garden. I'm not too concerned with the overall concept of landscape. It looks and feels good to me, so for me, I'm doing something correct from my standpoint.

I don't think anyone has to give a brand new gardener tons of gardening information in a post. Gentle nudges in other directions would help. A newbie probably doesn't realize most of the time they are asking a question which needs a book for an answer. They do think it is simple.

I post a lot on a few boards and when I see someone pop up with a question which has been asked numerous times or even just fell on to the next page of posts, I quickly look and see when they joined Gardenweb. It's usually fairly recent and they don't take the time to read back posts or realize yet they can search for the information. this forum has given me a vocabulary I didn't have and now I can easily search. It's hard to search when you don't know what you are asking.

I just know on other forums, gardeners have extensive gardens and still manage to answer questions. It doesn't seem to be that it is viewed as taking away from their own pleasure in gardening since they are obviously choosing to sit at the computer rather than being out in the yard.

I appreciate all of the dialog on this forum. It hasn't made me feel that I could comfortably contribute, but I have learned a great deal.

Gloria

I'm a newbie. I've been reading about landscaping for about 3 years since I bought my house which had *no* plants....I've read magazines, books, this forum, websites. I have PhD so I'm not stupid or lazy, but I have a tendency to get caught up in the many, many options/details and I am fearful of "wrong mistakes" -- mostly because my time and money is so limited. (This forum taught me to be smart, but to let the mistakes goyaÂll have all made them.) I've also consulted with two mastergardener friends who were supportive but too general (e.g., wow...you have a lot of possibility here). I feel that I have made progress on my garden, but still need/want outside perspective. (It's the same way with trying on clothes...you know what you think looks good, but it never hurts to have a friend give you a 2nd opinion.) The people here have helped me see things I didnÂt see. (Ditto in the kitchens forumÂI had an idea and they saidÂgive us your dimensions so I got the graph paper and gave it a go. I would never dream of knocking down a chimney without others suggesting/reaffirming it as a smart ideaÂand here I go!)

I've found the people here to be very, very helpful. In my original post I forgot to say some things that I already knew (e.g. soil types, sun)...Thank heaven people were gentle with me in asking. I just forgotÂand to think I might have been "pestering" some isÂwowÂintense. Although I've looked up plants on search engines, someone (saypoint, I think?) gave me two new sites that were better! People (BarefootinCT, lpinkmountain, for ex) taught me how to draw with Paint in deciding what kind of porch to use...that way I could *see* it, suggested I enlarge my front door with sidelights, and gave other great ideas. Some days, I honestly felt I was losing my mind thinking about this stuff-best principles, what I should focus on, long v. short timeframesÂwhich is *not* how gardening should be. As it is, I'm trying to help a friend stay out of foreclosure, raise money for a child's treatment for leukemia, help someone with through divorce, "minister" to some refugees, etc...so maybe thinking about my garden/porch/trees is a distraction from all the ugliness and pain that can pop into people's lives here and there (not to mention the larger global picture of starvation/poverty, war, etc.) It is a creative act and an act of beauty-- when many of us have few outlets for that. So I was (and remain) so thankful for people offering new suggestions and reminding me to prioritize and not get carried awayÂ.for people's ideas and time and perhaps most of all for their gentlenessÂ.because you never know whatÂs happening in peopleÂs lives and sometimes a little gentleness goes a very, very long way.

Ya'll have a great day out there, ya hear? :-)

I study horticulture and landscape design at our community college. I hope to give up my marketing consultancy and graphic arts business and do landscape design until I retire in ten or fifteen years. At the end of this next school year, I'll be certified in LD and plant propagation. That won't make me a landscape designer, I know, but it will be a springboard.

I love this forum because you all expose me to so much more knowledge than I get in LD class. The class reflects the views of one person, a teacher who in my opinion, is more interested in knocking out a lot of designs in an 8-hour day than actually doing a great design. I don't doubt he's capable at his job, but many of us in class would like to be taught by someone who is more creative, more imaginative, more willing to break out of the "spirea/serviceberry/karlfoerstergrass/palacepurpleheuchera" design rut.

I also wonder if his comment that modern residential landscape designers typically do not use computers for designs or drawings. Is this true? (I'm really good with landscape graphics and love drawing, but they're time consuming, can't be undone, and my hand is numb and my eyes are crossed for days after doing a full sheet master plan drawing.) The teacher is admittedly computer-phobic, so I'm wondering if that's why he steers us away from using them.

So this forum is a place for me to be taught by a group of very knowledgeable and well-spoken people. This is the first place I land when I boot up the computer each morning. My LD class had me kind of depressed at the end of last term. I don't want to be the kind of designer my teacher is, and you've all made me realize I don't have to be. Thanks for that.

I'm going to hit "submit" now, in the hopes that my teacher never stumbles in here!

Judging from past posts in threads about the usefulness of computers in LD, many pros still do plan views by hand. Some have to use a computer program because they share the CAD drawings with others who must be able to access and use them, or because they work on public projects, and it's a requirement. For residential design, the use of CAD for plans may be overkill, and traditional CAD is not easy to use. (I had an instructor who called the photo mockup software CAD, because it means "computer aided design" but that's not what I think of when I think of "CAD".)

Consumers are starting to expect pictures of their homes with plants pasted on them, thanks to HGTV and other cable gardening/home improvement programs. The photo mockups are a sales tool, for the client who cannot picture the finished design from a plan view drawing. They add time ($$) to the design process, without adding value, unless the client won't buy the design without a picture. They certainly don't help in the design process (you still need a plan view first) and won't do anything to improve your design.

A computer program that's easy to learn and use, that will produce good quality plan view drawings, and isn't too expensive, would certainly be a good thing, but I don't think it exists yet.

Karinl, I think you made a bingo with your last post. It probably IS the questioner, rather than the question.

May I give an example of what happens when people don't ask questions? Thank you.

An organization (garden oriented) that I belong to has a project that is nearing completion. Mostly women gardeners, they have worked very hard, and they have done a wonderful job.

One garden bed remained to be done, and a retired teacher/socialite type lady decided she wanted to do this one! She enlisted the County Judge's wife and a retired Nurse to help her. The CJ's wife is also a retired teacher. So, there is certainly enough brain power in that group to get the job done. You would think.

The first thing they did was draw a plan. The bed is roughly 51'x13, with a 2'tall stone wall on 2 sides, and butts up against a building. So, there is one 51' side of this bed that is open. Existing plants in the bed consisted of a group of 6 crepe myrtles of a variety that I have never seen before: about 30 years old, the trunks are very slender, perhaps 1.5" in diameter, maximum. Very pretty.

The plan before the lady took over this job was for us to use large boulders as accents in this bed, as it is a public building. No birdbaths to clean, no cute statues, no pathways- we don't want people (children) running through the bed, pulling the statues over on themselves. I digress.

So they have a lovely colored drawing, and a plant list. They proceeded to the next step- purchasing the plants! They spent over $1,000.00 on plants- all retail, before they had ever added the first bit of amendments to the soil, before they had even decided what to do with the open edge of the bed.

We (our organization)are a 501c3, and as such, have all the necessary paperwork, tax #s, liscenses and such to enable us to purchase what we need wholesale. When I asked why they didn't buy plants from a grower, 'the lady' professed that she wanted to do this herself.

So, someone (MOI?)suggested that they really needed to raise the bed by about a foot, perhaps a little more, and add some amendments. They brought in some 'topsoil' from the river. Turned out to be pack sand, lovely when it is at optimum moisture. Nasty when wet, and you couldn't break the crust on it when it is dry. Nope, can't plant yet.

The other thing they did was to add over a foot of soil to the crepe myrtles.

About this time, the leader lady emailed me about this project. I outlined what I thought needed to be done, and she did take my advice.

The soil over the CMs was removed to the drip line. A good amount of compost was added. Drains were installed at the CMs, as they now sit in a well. Sod was laid on the open side of the bed, and a rock edge was installed to complement what we had done at the other beds. The date to plant was scheduled.

Tragedy befell us. The lady's DF passed away, and she was gone for about 10 days-2 weeks. The other persons on her committee "don't water', and half the plants died while she was gone. Since she has come back, She has decided that it is too hot to plant now, and we will wait until the end of September. And then she wants to purchase a bunch of expensive bulbs that she can plant in October. She doesn't know a thing about bulbs, and especially bulbs in the South of the South! We can't do them the way they do them in Michigan!

And on top of all that, they decided against the boulders in favor of a big wrought iron trellis! I am near sobbing now, I don't know how many 'pretty' plants I would give up for a substantial boulder. Maybe I am wrong, I do have to consider that.

That is my tale of woe.

I would answer questions all day, until I was blue in the face, as long as I was confident that I knew the answer, or that I knew where to tell them to get the answer. I never mind 'dumb' questions, because I don't think there are that many of those. I resent people who think..........let me re-phrase that.........I resent people who Don't think!

I started to garden so I could grow food. It was important, lest we would not eat. We were very poor. I learned as much as I could, and I love the learning, I never want to stop. So if I ask a dumb question, please answer it. You will never know how you may be influencing someone.

Janie

Janie, what a sad story!

I hope that when I have asked questions, I didn't appear to have not done any homework!! I have literally dozens of landscaping books in my library and every time I buy one, I think "THIS is the one that will help me achieve my goals" You know how it is with diet books:-)

Andi956 said "I have a tendency to get caught up in the many, many options/details and I am fearful of "wrong mistakes" -- mostly because my time and money is so limited." I can SO relate to that. I can relate to the clothes analogy too.
VG

Karin, I think I must agree with you that is the questioner's attitude rather than the specific question that I typically find off-putting. And that is not necessarily limited to this forum - I see it on all the other forums here on GW I visit as well as at work.

It actually mirrors a current trend in the gardening industry - that of the consumers who want it all done for them rather than putting in the effort themselves. While that is fine to a degree, it seems to have expanded into an attitude that even the most basic of research is unnecessary and that one simply has to ask to receive. And when the receipt isn't prompt and to their liking, then the fur begins to fly.

I see this countless times on other forums where the most basic questions are asked without even skimming through the FAQ's (if any), any previous similar threads researched - some of which still appear on the page - or even a simple Google search done. Makes me wonder if these folks know what a search engine is, but they found their way here somehow. And I encounter it constantly at my nursery - customers come in looking for plants and can't begin to describe the intended planting area as to size, soil conditions, or even the amount of light it receives. Apparently the nursery staff is assumed to be psychic and can devine these things without their input.

I have no problem answering questions or offering advice, but it's a case of GIGO - you get out of it what you put into it. The better prepared the questioner, the more detailed the information provided and the more focused or specific the request, the more valuable the answer/advice will be. And that assumes a certain amount of homework on the part of the one posing the question. With respect to this forum, that eliminates for me a majority of those vague and extremely broad "help-me-design" requests, whose initiators have not gone through even a basic evaluation of the situation and generated some opinions or thoughts of their own.