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theprairieprophet

Complete Backyard Revamp/Regrade, need help

13 years ago

Hi everyone, I've done some searching on the interwebs and found some help but nothing quite specific to my situation.

I have an older home (built in the 30's). I have a shallow basement (about 7 feet tall) under half my house and the region I live in is often referred to as "that Saskatchewan gumbo", regarding soil type. My foundation I guarantee is lower than it was 80 years ago, but I believe it has stopped settling over time. Problem is, it is quite low.

My house is on a corner lot, so I have the benefit of only having one neighbour. I have an alley behind me and streets on two other sides. I am also at the high end of my block, which ends at a drainage creek, ie there is a natural slope down my street to the end of the block, and I do have the advantage of being at the high end of that slope.

All this said, I currently have a water problem where a previous owner cut out a lower spot in the yard for a garden. This butts up against the neighbour's fence, and as such his yard is a good inch and a half to two inches higher at that point. Every time we get a heavy rain I end up with standing water for a good 24 hours in that section of yard.

The plan is to regrade my entire yard, because if I just add to the low spot, the water will most likely run back toward my settled foundation. I can't build up much more there because my foundation is so low, the ground almost comes up to the top of it as is. I need to find a way to grade away from my house but not flood out my neighbour, which unfortunately has me needing to work against gravity (neighbour is on the downslope side).

I have a long yard (roughly 80' from the corner of my house to my garage at the back alley) which means i'd have to drop quite a ways if I just sloped from front to back (house to back alley). The nearest drain is upslope out the front, which I would have to fight the natural slope to get water to.

I'm not sure what my best course of action is, i thought maybe I could run some drainage along the fence (say a 4 foot wide strip that's sloped down to the allley and covered in gravel), or perhaps I have to split my yard and run drainage against the slope out to the street (which would involve a lot more work).

I have a bobcat guy so the work isn't really a problem, it's the plan moreso. I will post another post with pictures as well.

Comments (12)

  • 13 years ago

    Here is the above google view of my house/yard

  • 13 years ago

    Here is the same image with some identifiers.

  • 13 years ago

    and finally a ground view from the garage, the low spot is the area along the fence, i plan to get some more pictures with a mowed lawn.

    There will be another thread in the near future about lawns but I need to solve this first.

  • PRO
    13 years ago

    A main bit of information one would need to know -- accurately -- is the OVERALL lay of the land. The elevations at the house corners and the corners of the lot would be a good place to start. One needs to know this information in order to determine which way water should be flowing from the various areas. It would not make sense to drain water toward the back if there is a shorter route for it to leave the property. On must generally follow the natural flow, not fight against it. If the ground slope shallowly, it's not always easy to look at it and know which way is downhill or how much.

    To find out, imagine a level plane floating a few feet above the ground. If you were to measure the ground's distance from this plane, you would know where the ground is higher and where it's lower in respect to all the other measured points (corner of house and corners of lot) and be able to determine the GENERAL slope (as opposed to all the minor slopes in between.) The elevation of the LEVEL plane is arbitrary, but must be consistent so that all the measurements from it correlate accurately to one another. How does one create a level plane? On your house, the siding looks level (and presumably is) so you could arbitrarily pick the top of any convenient siding board and have it be the level plane. From any point along that level board, measure straight down to the ground, at the house corners, to determine their difference from the plane. To find the elevations of the lot corners, run a construction string (mason's twine) from any point along the siding board that was chosen to represent the plane (you don't need to drive a nail into the siding ... just pound a stake into the ground and tie it at the same level. Extend the string to the lot corner and use a line level ($3) placed on the string to make sure it's taught and level. Tie it to a stake or fence at the corner of the property and measure the vertical distance from the ground to the string height there and you will know how the elevation at that corner of the lot relates to the elevation at the corner of the house. It might take a person about 1/2 hour to ACCURATELY know the key elevations. It's useful as it permits you to report to others (here) what the actual conditions are rather than submit guesses, approximations and other vague information which is not really helpful in determining how you'd solve your problem.

  • 13 years ago

    I still hold with, drainage is not something you can reasonably work out in an online forum. Find a local pro, whether it's a designer or a grading contractor. Half the assumptions you make ON SITE about what water wants to do are wrong, you're not going to improve on that online.

  • PRO
    13 years ago

    Marcinde, your opinion about whether a person can be helped with drainage problems through an online forum might be an overreaching generalization. While some people using the forum refuse to develop and submit sufficient information so that they can be helped ... and some others (at least one!) refuse to even answer pertinent questions, that doesn't mean that all can't be helped. In fact, since I've been on the forum I've seen several people get information that I know worked to their advantage. In most cases, a forum member is not looking for a plan. Instead, they're looking for guidance and it certainly is possible to get that here. They may need guidance in order to know what their next step should be in order to solve the problem locally.

  • 13 years ago

    Yard, we did a job several years ago where all of us looked at the existing conditions and even my boss at the time - with 30 years in the field - thought it looked like everything pitched at the basement. We set up the transit and discovered that there was actually a barely perceptible swale, with 1/8" per foot of fall, out to the ditch 1000 feet away. Drainage isn't easy, and without the tools and knowledge to analyze the situation you can be very wrong. Does the OP have that knowledge and those tools? How do we know the veracity of the info given?

    The OP has a challenging site and the potential to impact his home or his neighbor's. There's significant liability for the OP when it comes to water and the law, and as a professional there would be liability for me (don't think for a second that GardenWeb would fight a subpoena for my IP address) for any advice I gave.

    Every locality has different ordinances regarding what can be done with stormwater. Every region has different soils and other considerations. I personally think it's a waste of time (and potentially irresponsible to my family) for me to attempt to diagnose and resolve a grading question through my monitor, when the expedient (and smarter) course is for the OP to just call someone local and get boots on the ground.

    Sometimes it's ok to say "there's a better way for you to get where you need to be than asking here." Really, it's ok.

  • 13 years ago

    I appreciate the honest opinions and answers. I will be having a landscaper helping me with this, I was more or less just looking for people who have undergone similar situations. I in no way am expecting anyone to get themselves into trouble giving me advice and understand if you don't wish to do so. I appreciate the advice of getting someone local.

    As to the other information and suggestions about getting more detailed site info, thanks for that also I am working on the whole yard at the moment.

    To me it is fairly obvious which way the water flows, it is not a shallow grade on our block, it runs steady down the the creek. And I know that my home was built up at some point, water runs away from it at every point but one, the corner that has settled. I actually have a flower bed against that corner of the house that I will be removing as well to get a better idea of just how much I can build up.

    I am very aware of that I cannot just redirect water into my neighbour's yard lest I create issues with (at the least) angry neighbours or (at the worst) potential fines and costly liabilities.

    Bottom line I always shoot to advice from forums (and google/youtube etc) to assist me in any work I undertake in my life. I found myself in a uniquely annoying water situation that at the moment is not disastrous, just needs attention. Thought I would get some opinions on the matter is all as part of my overall decision making process. The fact that I shouldn't fight the natural flow is one that I assumed, as mentioned my biggest problem is that the nearest storm drain happens to be against said slope. I will likely stick with my original plan to try and exit the water out to the alley, which unfortunately is the longest distance to travel, but it's the closest thing I have to a natural slope without just dumping it into the neighbour's yard.

    Another question would be is there a better medium to move water along, say gravel or something like that as opposed to just straight lawn?

  • PRO
    13 years ago

    Marcinde, you're entitled to your beliefs and opinions and I guess this is one of those places where we'll, respectfully, disagree. While most drainage problems require the OP to provide additional information, some of it can be collected simply, with very inexpensive, basic tools if the OP is willing to do it. Most of them are not dopes and can understand the basics, once it's explained. While not everything about drainage can be figured out in a forum, most of the basic issues can ... or be explained so that the OP knows where to go next. On top of that, I think it's a stretch to presume that one has great liability by providing free information that has no guarantee. All of the advice that comes here (and on any forum) requires the recipient to weigh it against common sense. If they're helped, they're helped. If they're not, they're not. And getting advice here does not imply or guarantee that local advice is unnecessary.

    "...I am very aware of that I cannot just redirect water into my neighbour's yard lest I create issues with (at the least) angry neighbours or (at the worst) potential fines and costly liabilities." To clarify, it is perfectly okay to maintain the natural sheet flow of water from one yard to the next. In fact, it would be impractical to alter it in most cases and impossible to stop it in many. It's a "given" that water leaving one's yard will run downhill to the next lower property. By the same token, one must be prepared to accept the natural sheet flow of water that comes from the next door neighbor who is uphill. Yards are supposed to be graded so as to move water on its way to the next lower property and to the right-of-way, without causing damage. What one can't do is CONCENTRATE water and direct it onto a downhill neighbor's property ... or dam it up so that it cannot leave the uphill neighbor's property.

    If one has a problem with water being retained in a low area, it's important to know how the grading is configured. It would be nice if it would show up in a photo, but most times it won't. Therefore, one must collect grade information that is measured, not just guessed at. Another key element of solving the problem is knowing how the water will find its way off of the property ... the path it will take. This also requires knowledge about how grades are configured OFF of the property because the question extends beyond "how will the water get out?" to "where will it go?"

  • 13 years ago

    I know of no theoretical bar to the design of grade and drainage by remote means such as over the internet. I've worked with professionals who have done such design without ever having been to the property or even seeing a photo of it.

    From a practical standpoint, most homeowners lack the knowledge of how to collect the data needed or are unwilling to expend the effort to do so. Part of the problem is the accuracy needed which will vary dependent on the particular terrain involved. Then there is the issue of errors to the data. All important data collected should have some element of redundancy that will uncover errors. That's what professionals do and homeowners can be guided to do the same.

    Is there a liability for professionals to give advice over the internet? Yes, sometimes. But those that have seen law suits on the subject up close know what a plaintiff must show to recover damages. And the danger of being sued is not near so great as many professionals assume.

  • PRO
    13 years ago

    "And the danger of being sued is not near so great as many professionals assume." I would venture to guess that very few people actually know of anyone who personally knows of anyone who's been sued over advice they've given out freely -- and without financial compensation -- over the internet ... and lost the suit. It seems like an overblown fear to me. Good luck, I guess, to anyone trying to reap a windfall win that way!

  • 13 years ago

    Another thing to consider is where does the water go once it leaves your down spout! You have extenders to try to keep it from returning to the foundation, and that is good.

    You might want to think through the idea of underground drainage as some farmers do in their fields. And for that, you will need advice from experienced people.

    At that low spot, could you plant a rain garden? Or, don't you get enough frequent rain to make that a practical consideration?

    Jim

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