Jlander...it sounds like CL to me. First thing first...absolutely get it tested!

If it is CL...

When the kids are born...BE THERE! Do not let the mother clean them up. You clean them and raise them as bottle babies. Everything I know about CL (which is limited)...they pass the disease from the open sore / wound. It also infects the ground (whether parsaite / virus...I don't know). If you have a goat that has an open wound and she rubs on the wall of her stall...then you put another goat in that stall later...it has the potential of catching CL as well. You need to bleach all the walls down where the goats have been. Clean all bedding out to the dirt (if you have dirt floors). Apply a thick layer of lime on the ground before you add anymore bedding. Also wait 10 - 14 days to make sure the spores are dead or gone before placing more goats in the area.

I do not believe the kids are infected in the womb (I could be wrong). I have read that you can milk the doe and feed the babies.

This is going to be difficult to swallow...but...I would personally wait until the babies were born and pull them immediately from the mothers. Separate all the goats that have shown signs of abcesses and lumps. Once the kids are weaned or you do not need the does for milk...cull them! Better yet...find another source for goat milk or milk replacer and cull the does after they give birth.

You say you do not want to possibly infect anyones goats so don't sell them.

You are talking about 4 - 5 goats right now. In another year...it could lead to hundreds or infected goats (if you take infected animals to the fair).

We got into raising goats because of 3 whethers we took from a little girl that did not want to sell them at the fair. Once we got them home and fell in love with them...we faced the same situation you are in right now; except they were whethers (obviously not expecting mothers). We were lucky. I worked with an older fellow with a big farm and grandkids. After explaining my situation over lunch one day...he said he wanted them. He said he did not have any other animals and they would be kept in the barn. His grandkids had been on him to buy them some goats to play with when they visited. He said if he every decided to get more goats or didn't want them anymore...he would "do the right thing" and not pass on the problem through a "sale barn."

Hind site being 20/20...if I had to to do it again, I would have culled them. Now that we are seriously raising goats, I do not want CL anywhere near my herd. I talked to him last summer and he still has Buddy, Huricane & Silver. Which I am very thankfull they will be living out a full and happy life. When they get an abcess...he separates them and treats it. Once it clears up...he puts them all together again. So it appears to have worked out...

Also watch your other goats for signs.

I know this is hard to take...it would kill me to cull one of mine. They are all like family. I just lost a buck. I am 40-yrs old, 6' 265 lbs man...and I cried! Some times we have to do the responsible thing.

Have you called the person you got these goats from? Maybe he does not know there is a problem. He might need to check his herd.

You can get on Yahoo groups The_Boer_Goat forum and post your concern there. Super great and knowledgable people. I am sure they can give you better advise than me.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Brian

oh my god! Brian what is CL??? This sounds terrible..what is it and how do they get whatever this ailment is?? I have 2 mini's

Have you tried feeding your goats garlic? I'm not sure if goats will eat it raw, but garlic cures bacterial infections amazingly well, even in people. I took almost raw garlic when I got an ear infection, cleared up after 3 days. My DH took it for 4 days when he got the beginning of cellulitis on his face, this stuff works! If you milk them it'll make the milk smell like garlic, but I'd try that if you notice them getting an abcess, or maybe even make a plaster with it if you can keep it on them, use raw garlic (chop up at least 3 cloves, mix it in with olive oil and let steep for about 5 minutes, then spread it over the abcess. Garlic has powerful antimicrobial properties. Keep the garlic treatment up until the abcess goes away. Hope it helps.

Mersiepoo...I know what you are talking about. My dad swears by garlic and bee pollen! But CL (CAE) is a little tougher than that.

I pulled this off the internet.

"Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL), also known in some parts of the world as "cheesy gland", is a disease that affects a goats lymphatic system, most often characterized by an external abscess - lump. CL manifests itself either internally, externally, or both and is very contagious to all other goats as well as humans. The size of the abscess is largely dependent upon the immune system and overall health of the goat. An abscess that is allowed to rupture will contaminate the ground for many years and infect other goats that come into contact. Likewise, a goat with internal CL can cough out the bacteria and spread it to other goats as well. At the present time, there is not a vaccination that cures or prevents CL in goats. CL as well as CAE are two diseases that goat breeders try in earnest to keep out of their herd."

To be completely honest...I do not know if this disease is fatal; but it is nasty. Like I said before...I had goats with it. When we would lance the wounds it would produce that cheesy "nastiness" and we absolutely do not want it back on our farm.

I was told by "seasoned goat people" how it get rid of it (hence the bleach & lime). That was 4-years ago and I haven't had one goat come down with an abcess since. Believe me every time I feel a little bump on one of my goats I start to "cringe." I then find out that my wife of son has given that goat a vaccination.

If you want to learn more about it...just google "CL in goats or CAE in goats"

Hope this helps.

Brian

Brian and jlander,
CL is nothing to mess around with. It is Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis that causes the abscesses and I wouldn't lance ANY abscess. Vets can excise the lumps surgically, but usually it is a losing battle. The disease doesn't respond well to any therapy that I know of, and, as Brian says, I would pull the kids and cull the dams ASAP. Brian, I would still be on the lookout for the disease even though you think you are rid of it. You may still have undetectable abscesses or internal abscesses that you cannot detect. If you can, cull all the diseased animals, and move your goats to another area of your property for a couple years. I am just paranoid of CL and Johnnes. Johnnes is a REAL problem to get rid of and sometimes you cannot ever get it off your farm. Hopefully, nobody on this list has THAT disease!

CAE is a different matter. CAE is a virus that can be passed from goat to goat through milk, and apparently, rarely, in utero. Supposedly, heat treating the milk inactivates the virus, and although not foolproof, seems to work pretty well to keep the disease confined. CAE is not easily spread, so I don't live in great fear of it.

The best rule to follow is to have the goats tested BEFORE you allow them to join your herd, and annually for several year after you have brought them home. I have some experience with CAE, and have had friends who were driven out of business by CL and Johnnes.

Good luck with the treatment!

Don

Don...CL scares the be-Jesus out of me as well. When we had those wethers 5-yrs ago, we didn't have any fence up...so they stayed in a stall in the barn. After I got rid of them (wish I had culled them knowing what I know know)...we remodeled the barn to make it more "goat friendly." The area where the wethers were in is now where I have tools and such. No goats go there except if we lead them through the barn to the side door.

We spend a lot of time with our goats. They get all their vaccinations and wormed along with trace minerals etc, etc. We are constantly looking for any abnormalities and promptly call the vet or other goat friends for advise if we think one of them is acting peculiar.

5-years after our little episode so far...so good. I really think we are out of the woods. Whenever we introduce new goats to our place...we quarantien?? (I can't spell) them for 3 - 4 weeks watching them closely. We make sure they get all the shots (CDT, BoSe, etc, etc) before we move them into the herd.

I still can't get over -26 F where you live...LOL.

Brian

I found some really interesting information on the internet. I can have a Vaccine made for our stain of cl and give it to all our goats the pos. one will not continue to get abcesses. And the neg. animals will be not become pos. Once you get CL on your land it could stay there up to at 5 years. I really think management will be our decision, I know most people just say cull,or KIll is the answer, But I am going to explore my other option.
I included the link to this information. http://www.postfinder.com/post/24303348.html

Jlander, the first thing I would do, if you haven't already done so, is get the goats/abcesses tested. Until you KNOW what you are dealing with, you are just flailing around. While the cleaning up with bleach and lime should be done regardless of what disease/problem you are dealing with, unless you know exactly what it is, you don't know what other procedures you should do. If you don't have a goat-friendly vet (which you probably should look for and cultivate, so he/she knows you and the herd, if only on an annual wellness check for the breeding animals, so that in an emergency, you already have a relationship), almost any vet can take samples and send them to either the national lab in Ames, Iowa, to your state university, or to the nearest vet school for testing. It may take a while for the results to get back, but no more than 10 days. You don't have to test all the animals, as if one has whatever, they all probably do or will.

Do let the forum know what the results are. And I hope it's not as awful as it sounds.

Jlander...I wish you all the luck in the world! If what you say is true...I would also make that decision. The last thing I would want to do is cull my animals if there was another "affordable" option. You have had these goats awhile and I know they are probably like family members by now. I know ours are...

Let us know how it all works out.

Brian

If I only have 2 mini pygmies (sisters) and never get more,am I ok? I mean,what do they actually catch this from..other goats that are infected? if the 2 does I have are healthy now what are the chances of them getting infected if they never see any other goats?

Beeliz, I believe that somewhere in this thread, it was said that people can get CL. Reason enough to be very careful. I heard on the radio this afternoon that the Italian gov't will be slaughtering approx. 30,000 water buffalo who have tested positive for brucellosis, which people can also get, and for which there is no vaccine, to my knowledge. Can you imagine how much more expensive imported mozzarella made form water buffalo milk will be?

If you aren't milking your does, nor breeding from them, and are just keeping them as pets, who never come into any contact with other goats, and they seem to be healthy now, then I wouldn't worry. If I visited other goats, then I would wash well before I came to see my goats, and maybe would wash the clothes (and shoes) I was wearing as well, just to be sure.

thanks dibbit! I will be careful if I go to other goat homes :) I always hate to hear of some other illness we have to worry about...it never ends does it?

Many things could cause abscesses, so get your goats tested to find out what it is. It could be as simple as feeding hay containing barley foxtail. The seeds/beards can work into the skin and will form an abscess and gradually keep going deeper. If the abscesses are forming around the mouth/head, it could be weeds in the feed and if so the solution is simple--stop feeding the weedy feed and clean up the residue in the corral, then you just have to deal with draining and healing the current abscesses.

Tha goat people I know of, if a goat gets an abscess the goat goes DOWN the road the same day they find it! It is NOTHING to play with, it can go through the herd FAST!!!!!!!!!!!
Sandie

Yes I think that is the problem, people send them down the road, and pass it along. I have found 2 vaccines for this now, that will help protect neg. goats from cl. Unfortunately pos. animals stay pos. They spread cl if their abscess breaks and if they have it internally in their lungs by coughing. I have talk to many people that use to believe they would never get it then, surprise!! it sneaks up on them, pops up when you least suspect it. On animals that were tested and tested neg. and yet some how later in life, have an abscess. I am going to see if we can get a handle on it and stop it in it's tracks, if we can't we will be losing some of our herd but we will not pass it along so others, unfortunately they will have to be destroyed. We know it's nothing to play with but doing the research I have found, I HOPE, that we can get a handle on it.