"I could cover a run with net or shade cloth, but that limits the size of a fenced yard."

Another common sense limitation that seperates reality from fantasy. You already know what you have to do. There's no easy solution, no management style and no magic tricks which will keep your birds safe unless the predators are prevented physical access to them.... period. Romantic notions of "free ranging" poultry are just dreams, unfortunately. It doesn't work for long term sustainable flocks.

Red-tailed hawks are big enough to kill chickens. Generally, like most buteos, they are mammal eaters, and don't bother birds. They are too large and slow moving to catch them. Most claims of red tails attacking poultry are misidentified accipiters, Cooper's, Sharp-shins or goshawks. It does happen rarely that a red-tail will get a chicken, and I've known people whose identification of them doing so can be relied on, but it's really very rare.

Hey Lynn ---- don't worry until you have to and then you just take care of the problem. Chickens are so happy being free. Maybe if a few have an early death, they had freedom while they lived. We had problems first with feral cats --- relocated those to 'heaven' and ended up with a litter of kittens that we totally love today. They grew up with the chickens and still think they are chickens!

Then there were a few raccoons that we had to trap in "Have-a-Heart traps". Those also were relocated to Heaven or maybe Hell. We have hawks flying over always but the chickens are heavy breeds and the Americanas are great flyers. They protect themselves pretty well in the woods and fly into the trees when they need to. We also have many owls, but the chickens "come home to roost" long before the owls come out to hunt. We lock the chickens in each evening at nightfall.

Today for the first time, I didn't open their doors in the morning. It was -20 degrees and I wasn't sure that their little chicken brains would protect them from frost bite. I opened the doors at noon and they were so excited to get out in the sunlight. They sure do want spring to come but it is interesting that they seem to be getting food from the frozen earth where there isn't snow. I have to wonder what they are pecking at? (BTW they always have plenty of feed.)

Anyway, they are living a life that nature intended and if they don't make it because another animal is smarter, well then they won't. Hmmmm --- neither will we.

Lynn,

I was raising my first flock of 12 hens and 2 roos and it all came crashing to a hault last Wednesday when they didn't come home to roost. Not a single one! I had been letting them out on nice sunny days to let them live as nature intended as it were! I searched until late in the night for signs of them and there was nothing.

The next morning I found my first six dead and decapitated. No sign of the others. Late the following day one hen came back to the coop badly injured. She is doing much better. The surviving roo was recovered yesterday and is in rough shape. Hopefully he will make it after rest and food.

So my thrill of having the girls enjoy free ranging has come to a screeching halt. I always thoguht that if one didn't come back then so be it but losing the whole flock at once like this to a weasel ( I am fairly sure) is quite devasting. Tonight with temps way down below zero and windchills to -25-to -30 I doubt that my hens could survive even if they are alive. So Patrick's words have the reality of the situation. Trust me, I rue the day I opened the pen and let them out. If you want them to have lovely life build them a Taj Mahal of a coop and pen and enjoy knowing they are safe.

Now that the predator has made the kill I will probably never get rid of him. Heed the warnings.

An attack like mine is not at all unusual and if you want to read lots, lots more on how to keep your birds safe along with how to care for them in all kinds of situations visit Back Yard chickens website. It's got tons of interesting information all shared by chicken lovers like you. My incident is there under Emergencies and is titled "No one came home last night".

Here is a link that might be useful: Backyard Chickens Forums

Lynn--

On the days when you can be around to keep an eye on them, you can let them range for a while. My hens are pretty well addicted to the sound of scratch in an empty yogurt container and when I want them to come in I call them "chick chick chick" and shake the container and they come running.

I would not allow my hens to range free when I'm not home. There are a few local dogs that run free and the risk is too great.

--Johanna

Hi Instar8 - Maybe the thing to do is to think about why free ranging appeals to you. If it is for the aesthetics of having an array of lovely colorful chickens about, then perhaps the best thing is to build a chicken fortress and free range them when you're home to supervise only.

If if it's the varied diet you're after, perhaps a chicken tractor might be a compromise (a sound one).

While we keep ours in a soundly fenced chicken yard, we provided also a very large area, viewable from the deck if we want to peer at them from time to time. We've also given them access to our adjacent garden when I allow it. They seem perfectly happy, particulary since we regularly toss them lots of different stuff to scratch for.

NHSuzanne, really sorry to hear about your losses. Please keep us updated on the survivors. Poor things.

GOod luck!

Wow. I guess free-ranging isn't for everyone. We are home most of the time and when one is gone, the other is usually here. We are on watch all the time, so I think that makes a real difference. Today it was -20 degrees. I was out there about 10 times today. I didn't open their doors until about noon because I worry about frost bite, but we are always watching. Today, I needed to make sure they had water that wasn't frozen.

I expect predators know we are around all the time too.

Everyone has a unique situation - with extremes at both ends of the spectrum. Some people free range their chickens and never loose one, some, like suzanne loose all at once. Usually you loose all at once to a pet dog on a rampage but suzanne's case sounds like racoons (they are related to weasels) to me. Most people who free range loose one or two to predation each year. We free range our chickens and have livestock guardian dogs so we don't have a problem here but we do lock the birds securely up at night to confound the possums and coons. Consider also that sometimes chickens will kill one of their own, especially if you have too many in close confinement.

To answer your question, yes, chickens can be trained to come to the coop for feed at regular times, just be consistent with feeding and watering them there and only there. It also helps to have a certain call, whistle, or other sound like a shaken feed can they learn to associate with feed time. Ours come running from every direction when they hear the metal garbage cans opening --- we store the feed in them.

If you have big bad coons that are bold enough to come to your house and tangle with your dog, then you will have a predator problem and your fencing has to be really secure. Racoons are good at opening latches, climbing and generally getting into places you thought were secure. They will also grab and eat the chickens through fencing.

Another thing to consider is how your neighbors might feel. I've had several flocks over the years and some stay close to the house, ranging less than an acre, while others cover five acres or more. Chickens can do a lot of damage to gardens and your gardening neighbors might not appreciate them...maybe even helping a few to disappear. Roosters will also call during all hours of the day, not just in the morning...especially if you have more than one.

If your heart is set on free range chickens, start out small, three or four hens with a secure dog house sized roosting place and see how things go. You can add more chickens/roos and a bigger coop later. If it doesn't work out then you won't have lost a lot.

Good luck!

I've had a Redtail kill a chicken, it was winter and the live'n was not easy. The hawk ate chicken and was unable to fly back out of the chicken run so we wound up rescuing the hawk by getting her to climb on a rake and dropping her over the fence, she waddled into the woods. We now have a chicken fort.

Somebody told us that leaving a transistor radio running in or near the coop/chicken run area discourages predators from getting too close. Perhaps one of those talk radio stations....don't know if it really works, but the sound of rap music generally causes me to head in another direction.

lf

Thanks for the reality check...;~(

I don't think I'm being overly romantic about pasturing chickens, I want better eggs and meat than I can buy dirt cheap at the grocery, and a confined grain-fed flock just isn't going to make that superior product.

I have a friend in SW Ohio that I visit when I'm in the area, she raises chickens, sells eggs and egg noodles, butchers the extras herself, and makes the most heavenly pot of chicken and noodles you could ever dream of slurping up (it's too darned good to eat politely!)

I love the feeling of making a big pot of veggie soup on a cold fall day and knowing that i grew everything in it, and I'd really love to make my own chicken stock and noodles and egg salad and of course FRIED CHICKEN! It's more spiritual than romantic for me. Romance is overrated anywho.

PLus, I just like watching them, I had ducks way back when, and they were really entertaining, but they were so messy, especially in winter, and i'm not that fond of eating duck or duck eggs.

I wish I could keep a dog outside to protect them, but I know that's not gonna happen, and there's no way i'd leave a dog out on cold winter nights, just when the predators are hungriest. Besides, i want the dogs in the house to protect ME!

I wondered about a pair of watch geese...they'd be a bit more of a challenge for a coon or fox, maybe.

But I guess I 'll be putting up a lot of fence along with my chicken fortress, I thought about making a long run around the periphery of the garden, or at least two sides, in addition to the main yard. But I'll still let them out when i can watch them!

Thanks for your help!

Lynn.

If the chickens are really free ranging, they go very far from their coops. I just don't know of any way you could coax them to come in early even with feed since they much prefer what they can scratch up in the fields and woods.

If you have to go to work before it gets dark in the evening, you really will have to confine them. The nocturnal predators are the ones sitting in wait for you to not close those chickens in. You might consider a solar-electric mesh fence. We used a double one when we were raising the meat chickens -- they had a huge area to forage in and we moved the fencing every two weeks or so. We didn't loose a single bird.

We have plenty of hawks around here but have never lost a chicken to one. The owls would be a problem but they are nocturnal hunters and the chickens are indoors when the owls are out.

We thought about the geese angle too - and maybe it helps, a little, but they tended to dominate the chicken yard and honestly, they're no match for large predators. Given your aspirations, again perhaps chicken tractor, though you'll still have to be defensive where predators are concerned. I recommend reading some of Joel Salatin's methods. The book I read was entitled: Pastured Poultry. I think he uses Cornish X's though, and the entire operation is not as delightful as the colorful story book farm yard illustrations. Maybe a combination or compromise between pastured and pets. Keep thinking it through. You're asking the right questions.

LF

I've had chickens in the "wilds" of Virginia for almost 10 years now. I have standards & bantams -- I've lost bantams to black snakes & hawks; standards to dogs. Nothing to nocturnal predators (yet). We have everything except black bear & cougar on our land, so the hen houses & pens are built to keep out everything (except, unfortunately, rodents & the occasional snake). The chickens have a set routine -- and they know it well. When I get home in the late afternoon (4 pm), all of the chickens are set free. When it's time for all of them to come in for the evening, I give a shout -- and they run to their pens for treats (cracked corn, old bread, grapes, lettuce, rice -- whatever I have on hand from my kitchen and from "donations" at work). Every once in awhile I'm out on a summer night until 8:30 or 9 trying to round hens up, but that's rare. I've watched them on weekends & they spend the days outside preening & sunning & dust bathing in their large pens & do not seem to mind being confined for most of the day (in fact, if I go outside on a Saturday or Sunday morning, they ignore me & don't beg to come out). The other thing about free ranging hens -- if you garden, they are excellent at destroying unfenced gardens!

I've read some of Salatin, and I read "Omnivore's Dilemma" , where Michael Pollan writes of the week he spent at Polyface Farm, which has just got me all the more in the livestock mood. But most of his designs require a few/several people up to a tractor to move, I'm pretty strong, but it's just me here, no interns...;~(

I've also got a Kencove catalog here, looking at electric fencing, both for chooks and to keep those bloody coons and possums out of my corn and melons.

Roberta, can you recommend a good solar energizer? THere's so many to choose from. Maybe I should start a new thread....?

Oh, and Patrick, this red-tail has figured out that if he(?) dive bombs the feeders at least one of the birds will freak out and smack into the sliding glass doors, he comes and eats the disabled bird... about five feet from where i'm sitting right now. Another place I lived, I had a sparrow hawk that did the same thing. I've also seen a redtail here catch a mourning dove mid-air, and seen them grab snakes more than once. Very adaptable, SMART birds!

I lost my flock in mid afternoon while I was away. It was a bloody massacre. While I think it's great to let them free range I will not be doing it without having them confined in thier very large and fenced in yard. They were getting farther and farther away as time went on - I suppose I should have known better.

On the other hand I have a friend that lives two miles away and has never had a loss in 20 years. She keeps her confined in a fenced area which is open so overhead and climbing predators can get in!

The same attack could have happened right inside the coop so you never know. All I know for sure is that my hear was broken 12 times over that day!

Yikes! I'd be sick, too. So Suzanne, did you ever find out who the culprit was? I didn't realize the attack was during the day. My plan was to let them out when I got home at 7AM, and shoo them in and lock em up in the coop by 5P every day.

It's hard to know who/what the culprit was. Four were found beheaded all within a very close proximity. This is a weasel or a racoon but I say weasel because a racoon just isn't that fast. Then I found several piles of of feathers out in the woods indicating they were carried and eaten. Out of 12 I have 2 recovered and 6 bodies, what became of the rest God only knows. It's so sad.

I will not let mine out if I am at home and have the time to be with them the whole time. So if you let them out at 7am and home to lock them up at 5 pm - well, it woon't work. They won't even entertain the thought of coming to the coop until it starts to get dark. Again, it's up to you but be prepared to have a catastrophe.

The more they range the further and further away they get from saftey.

Instar8, you've had a wide range of answers and by now you can probably see that there are as many different experiences with free ranging as there are people who have tried it.

For your situation, this is what I would suggest: build as large a secure yard as you can afford. I mean Fort Knox! It must be covered with welded wire or hardware cloth if it is to be secure from predators. On days when you are home to supervise, let the chickens out to free range. This will conserve the "resources" within the pen. On days you have to leave for work before dark, keep the chickens in their secure pen. They will go into their house at dark and you won't have to worry that something will get them.

You will lose the odd bird if you free range, but MOST mass losses occur when the birds are confined in an insecure house or yard. I have been free ranging my chickens for four years and the WORST losses I have had were two pullets in the same week. We have all the usual predators around: raccoons, foxes, coyotes, weasels, mink, fishers, hawks... but we also have an abundance of voles and cottontails that are easier prey than the chickens.

A good rooster who free-ranges with his girls earns his keep. He cannot protect them from predators, but he does keep them together and keep them from wandering too far.

Instar8, have you visited the Back Yard Chickens site that i Posted a link to up above? There they have a section on coops and design and a very important section on predators and the damage they do. I highly suggest you vist this site for a multitude of info. You will be glad you did.

Like Maggie said, build your coop and pen like Fort Knox!

I lost my whole flock to a dog)-: And they were in their safe pen so I thought. He dug his way under. So now I am putting electric wire up. I let them out for several hours a day and they always go in at night. then I lock their door so nothing can get in there. Hawks have been a problem and we have racoons too but never a whole flock in one day!!! )-: If one gets nabbed then I am more careful and keep them in their pen for a while till I figure out what is happening. So now I have to start all over again and get chicks. Its been a sad week)-:

I've heard of llama and elpaca being good guardians, but what about a goat??? Brainstorming, that's all!! LOL!!