Yes, there are people who make a LIVING on 10 acres or less. Maybe not in Nebraska. But I know several people who grow specialty crops on less than that and sell to restaurants and specialty markets. That might not make them 'farmers' per se. And yes, the weather effects the outcome, so in that respect they are gambling much as farmers. It really is kind of ridiculous to argue about the definition of farmer. It is fine to be passionate, but when you are hard headed and not willing to hear another viewpoint that tends to lean toward bigotted IMHO>

Duane

jan, dont be sorry--you asked a fine question-lol--the problem lay in the answers. you see, we're all proud of what we do, used to be, around here, people would say "i'm ONLY a farmer". so, its nice that anyone can be proud of being called a farmer. and, its too bad we cant all agree, and not be offended, but thats whats so nice, right?we have the RIGHT to disagree!!as long as a "discussion" dosent result in name-calling, we'll probably be friends again in another posting, i hope. (a retired old lady who lives on a farm--and nowadays names her chickens-lol)

Well, I've been a gardenwebber for years, originally I think I found this forum looking for help with a scouring calf. I raise a few calves for my family's meat, a few chickens, some guineas, peafowl, and pheasants that I raise to sell hatching eggs. I have a horse that is mostly a pasture ornament but raises really beautiful babies, and 8 goats, I hope to sell some babies next year. Very small scale, and no crop farming. I am afraid I have some of the same attitude that I do the best I can but I can't take a $5 chicken to a vet and pay $50. The dogs are enough, and the meat animal vet thinks I'm crazy for doing all I can to save a calf, when his advice has been to shoot it. That's why I have used this forum for doing as much as I can do, myself. I need the advice of the farmers, but not so much the pet owners that do not understand that I make less than $10,000 a year. Or the show dog or show horse, or show cattle, or show chickens, etc. That's not life as I know it, and I do the best I can, but have to be real. People drive up to the fair in a vehicle that cost as much as our whole place. Or MORE. If a stray cat shows up here, my dogs usually take care of it. I don't try to catch wild cats and tame them and vet them and bring them in. It's tough out there. I just need real advice from real people. I am sick of the bickering lately, let's just not worry about who or what is a farmer, and just try to realistically help each other out with what we know.

Again I apologize for starting a disagreement. I did ask for other opinions and that is pretty much what we have here. Maybe I read more into one of the posts than was there, if so again I apologize.

We are blessed to be able to express our opinions freely. From now on I will think my questions through thoroughly before posting and if it can be controversial at all I won't post.

Jan

MeMo, The explanation of the purpose of this forum is such:

This forum is for the discussion of topics involved in operating a farm, as well as farm life in general.

Just as I am sure that I mistook and misunderstood many of the things you said, and made wrong assumptions about you, which I admit and the tone that I "read" your remarks in was probably all wrong too, I am sure that you "read" some of my remarks in the wrong tone and misunderstood much of my position also. Much gets lost in the written word. I appologize for making assumptions about you and situation.

I felt as if you were rolling your eyes and calling us pretenders. Like we have no idea what real work is or what a real farm is. Much of what you say you do, staying up all night worrying over expectant mothers and all the family/school/church/sports has nothing over on any of us, and to throw it in to explain why you are more of a farmer than us... .... The only thing is you have is more land and more at stake. But perhaps not even more at stake since I think everything is relative. If you base what you have and what you have at stake compared to what we have and have at stake our ratios are probably similar.

If I have any notion that my cow is going to have trouble calving, you'd better believe that we will be there all night if it takes it. My husband and I both stayed up walking a little rescue boer nanny goat that we had several months back till after midnight because she got bloated, and no matter what we did, it didn't help, vet was off duty and not available. We went to the house after 12:30 and was back out there about 2:00 till after 4:30. Not that any of it did any good, after four days we had to put her down to ease her suffering. We found out later that she had a history of severe poor health. And we both bawled about it. But that is part of farm life. And I will take the good with the bad. This is the kind of life we grew up with and it wasn't all fun but it is our life. As it is with most of the posters here and we all will be very defensive when someone belittles our way of life. I will definitely say that we are not "hobby farmers".

I was probably feeling a little more defensive of those out there who considered themselves farmers and also those farmers that I know and love that were real farmers with much less that your requirements of what makes a person a true farmer. Many had to hedge their bets as HOPTOWN has mentioned, and who out there can really say that makes us less and not more, or perhaps a little smarter. As I stated above that I don't really consider myself a farmer, but at the same time, I feel that I have a little farm. I don't think I make too many post about chickens, but I don't really have much to say about combines, tractors, haybalers etc.

Jan, bet you didn't expect to ruffle so many feathers, so to speak :). I'm glad you, Lesli8, toned it down a little. I agree with most of what me mo said. However, I have always lived on a farm (300 acres, none owned by my parents). Lesli, I think your perception of corporate farming is off a little. I can think of 1 "corp" farmer in the area and I don't like to call them that. They are just really big farmers. Just because we can make a living from our farm doesn't make us corp farmers. By no means do we farm 10000 acres, not even close. We don't own any of the land we farm. We will probably inherit some day, but assumptions of inheriting land were wrong.
I'm glad people can raise produce and animals to feed themselves, but we feed the world and I just feel there is a difference there.
I usually don't post anything on the boards, but I just couldn't help myself this time. I would just like people to understand how hard it is too farm. We are a dying breed, literally. The average age of farmers is getting higher all the time. Most parents don't encourage their children to farm b/c it's a tough life with little respect and advantage.
Thank you and good night.

Yes unfortunately farmers are a dying breed. The world would be so much better off if people raised more of their own food, for so many reasons. Food raised in our back yards has been proven over and over again to be much healthier. There was a time when everyone had chickens and milk cow and raised at least a small garden, even the city dwellers. Very few had the luxury of buying all their food the family ate. Kids learned responsibilty, and no matter how poor they were if they could raise their own food, they would not starve. I know that is not an option for most and it is not, never has been, and never will be a perfect world.

Jan, how dare you come here and start such a ruckus!!!

Just kidding...frankly, it's becoming the norm here.

I think memo is a farmer. I think Leslie is a farmer. I, too, am somewhat offended by MeMo's remarks. However, I'm not gonna let someone else's dumb-assed opinion mess up my day. I have a husband for that.

Webster's Dictionary defines the word "farmer" as "one who raises crops or livestock". Not a dang thing is mentioned about the size of the operation.

We consider ourselves "grass farmers". Grass is our number one crop. That is what feeds our herd. I don't mind being called a "hobby farmer", "wanna-be farmer" or anything else. Those are words...nothing more. Simply someone else's opinion.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call MeMo a "generational farmer", tho. If I weren't such a lady I'd say that it sounds to me like you COME FROM a family of generational farmers, and as Duane pointed out, you're just somewhat recently getting back to it. But I'll keep that to myself...it's just MY opinion.

I name some of my chickens, all of my cattle, goats, ducks, geese, and donkeys. I cry when I loose them, and I am still learning how to "put them down". My two dogs think they themselves are very important people. I don't expect that everyone else will feel the same about their animals. But it works for me...I really don't care what others think of it. Some people here have thought it ridiculous to be as emotional as I can be about my animals...fine. I think they are rude for saying it, but not for thinking it. How am I different from one who collects and is passionate about guns, or tractors.

And MeMo, you say "In the midst of all that and a million other things...we raise a family. We drive to games 50 to 100 miles away. We support our church and our school. We help our neighbors. We watch over the elderly and the sick. We cook huge amounts of food for funerals and weddings. We sew and mend. We garden and can. We wrench on equipment or run 30 miles to town for parts while our meals go cold and uneaten so the tractors can get back in the fields. We work on pivots and pumps so the irrigation keeps going. So you see...it really isn't the same thing."

Well, damn! Now that's a novel idea. WHY didn't I think of that??? And that makes you different from the rest of us...how? If being a "farmer" means I have to adopt such an irritated, arrogant and judgemental attitude...count me out.

I have a great admiration and respect for the "bigger" farmers who work their butts off, IF they can be decent to others. Most I've met seem to be exceptionally wonderful people. I have no respect for anyone that knocks others...no matter what their "title" is.

And another thing - will someone please explain to me why in the hell one can't just "scroll on by" if you're not interested in the topic? Nobody FORCES anyone to answer chicken questions.

To everyone else...I'm sorry to sound so abrasive and grumpy. Just a lot on my mind right now. And a bad day at the FARM!

Off the soapbox now! :)

Suzie

now!! thats the best thing i've read!! not going to let someone elses opinion mess up my day-- i have a husband for that!! i love it!really, mammacotti. maybe its just the heat getting to everyone, you think? dont anyone leave the forum, diversity it what makes it interesting, it would be a boring world if we all thought alike.

Did anyone else get a personal email from this MeMo person? Wow! What a mean, bitter individual. Perhaps she should have stayed with her backyard gardening. It sounds like this burden she has taken on is pushing her over the edge mentally speaking. I'm no farmer. I admit it, but now I kind of have an idea of what drove Jamie away from this forum. Such an innocent subject....and taken to this extreme is crazy..and I do mean crazy.

Duane

Jan, don't apologize for asking the question...it was a good and interesting question! And please don't refrain from raising other topics for fear they will be controversial just because a few folks got their panties in a twist. Notice also how many others were able to discuss the issue nicely and were supportive and polite to each other.

I'm sure I helped start things off with a bang and helped give some folks a wedgie by stating that in my opinion you IS a farmer, LOL. I make no apology for being a "wannabe famer" or a "granjerito" (little bit of a farmer, wonderful phrase coined by Dean's wife and I sincerely hope he doesn't mind that I keep stealing it) or a "small scale farmer by choice." Surely it's apparent that folks who hang out on a forum called "Farm Life" have only admiration for farmers and the farm way of life?

So some of us have CHOSEN to farm or have come to it later in life after doing other things....so some of us have smaller acreages or maybe even no acreages....so some of us will have have a hard time buying groceries this winter if the crops fail or the cow dies, and others will just be able to buy veggies and meat at the grocery store and be sorry they don't taste as good. Some of us have chickens or other livestock with names and wring our hands when they are ailing....others of us don't flinch when it comes time to wring their necks or cut their throats and fire up the stew pot or the barbeque (and many of us fit somewhere in vast range between those extremes.)

Pretty much if we're hanging out on this forum, we're either engaged in the work of farming to some degree, or wishing we were and admiring those who are. Whether you are up in the pasture after midnight with a sick cow because your grandaddy did it before you and you're worried that the whole herd will get sick and then you'll not make a profit at auction....or you're up there because it's Daisy and her baby is so cute and you'll just cry if she doesn't make it...hey, you're up in the pasture after midnight with a sick cow. And you're acting like a farmer. Whether the eggs from your chickens are your sole source of income or you're doing it because you think fresh eggs are healthier and taste better; the poop still needs shoveled out of the coop or the coop needs moved. Whether it's six chickens or six hundred....you're still shoveling **** just like a farmer.

You know, a lot of folks on here are actually pretty aware of the issues surrounding this little emotional discussion; "big agriculture" vs. the small sustainable family farm, how difficult it is to truly make your living off the land, etc. This is pretty hard work to CHOOSE to do...maybe anyone who feels they are the only "real" farmers could take a little minute to recognize that others who are doing this work by choice; or perhaps doing it on a smaller scale to help feed themselves or their families and/or supplement their incomes, are in some ways showing that they admire and appreciate farmers and farming.

So maybe this forum has changed its spots a bit since getting started; hey, if the majority vote to change the name to Folks Who Admire Farmers, Want To Be One, Sometimes Do Farming Work And May Or May Not Have Any Other Source Of Income Or Amusement....I'll join. Or perhaps folks on the ends of the spectrum will naturally gravitate to forums like Purely Pet Chickens or Gardeners Whose Veggies Never Touch Meat or Farmers With Hundreds Of Acres And A Combine. Just don't all you "in-betweeners," "small scalers" or "wannabes" go somebody place else without telling me! There needs to be *someplace* people like Jan can raise interesting issues and we can talk about them and have fun learning from each other.

Debra

Well,
I'm totally shattered.
My whole life I thought I was raised on a farm.
My folks raised orchids, veggies, and a few animals.
The orchids were the big sellers. We ate all the veggies
we could. I hardly ever remember buying any from the grocery store. we sold the chicken and thier eggs from a roadside stand. We drank fresh milk.
I thought we had it made. My folks did not work other jobs.
The farm was it. It raised 6 kids. supported us just fine (okay, I didn't have all the luxeries other kids had, but I loved it). All this on 7 acres.
All this time I've been telling people I grew up on a farm.
Darn this forum.
I need therapy now... Thanks a lot.

ö¿ö
~
Tom

Not that this is on target but I believe much along the lines of a good gentleman that lives in Ohio named Gene Logsdon. I am thinking that some of you "big" farmers would totally disagree with his thinking and way of life and such but when it comes right down to it farming in this country for these modern day corporate farms and other large farming operations is in big trouble.

I find it so hard to believe that people can't learn from nature. It will overcome us.... thats why virus's are getting harder to kill etc... Why, because we are so naive to believe we can control them. Much like flys on cattle. Every year these big companies have to come up with new chemicals to ward them off because frankly the old ones stop working... wonder why? because those flys and "nature" overcomes those chemicals. and they will continue to do it to the end of time.

All these hybrid plants etc. this is not what nature intends I don't believe. I'm sure many of you will disagree but thats life and those are opinions.

I could go on and on but I find a local happening much to the backing of my thoughts.

A small local farming town recently was told that the level of nitrates in their drinking supply is extremely high and getting worse and will get to the point where there will be no GOOD water left in the area the DEP believes. Is this a problem? I wonder if anyone ever thought if the polution of this water coincides with that "Liquid fertilizer" the local farmers so willing spray their fields with and store up all winter in these massive tanks.... I wonder if anyone ever thought if maybe it has something to do with spraying on those pesticides on the ground that kills the weeds... and all those little organizms' that make the soil fertile to grow things....

Nah its not that, these are safe chemicals. Spray on boys... After all we have to make a living from it. and if I want corn to grow in this field that is ALL i want growing there.

I realize this has little to do with the question posed but I will say this. I will take my 15 acre farm any day of the week with my 2 cows and 2 pigs and I will RESPECT my land and help it thrive... It will give me ALL that I need to live.

And I also really think how rediculus are people that thing they have 100 acres that someone with 10 acres can't live off it? what wagon did you fall off of? This is a very narrow minded view.

So what is a farmer? I would think a farmer is someone who RESPECTS the land they have... who grows crops and raises animals used to sustain their family.... not ruin it to get 5 more bushel of corn this year etc.

Please do not misinterpret this as a Rant. Its happening and the day will come when these big farms and farmers will wish they never used a single chemical for that extra 5 dollars and I would HOPE that most of the non-important 5 and 10 acre farmers are around to smile and say "told ya so"

PS also want to point out I know of a good many "larger (200 plus acre) dairy farms that are VERY VERY good about how they treat their land and animals. So it can fall both ways I realize. Just tends to be much more biased at times.

Hopefully we "little Farmers" can coexist for now and hang on to what we love as well.

Farming is important no matter how many acres you have.

Thanks and I will apologize up front if I have offended anyone.

I suppose I should also add that I realize in the midwest and other areas 1000 acres is actually equivalent to maybe 100 acres for sustainability somewhere else... Due to rainfall and environmental conditions. SO I don't want to Lump folks in just based on acerage alone anyway.

I kinda (completely) agree with rox but didn't really want to open that can of worms! But since its open now I can dig around alittle! LLOL!

I don't have problems with large property owners per se. I do have a problem with growing "food for the world". I think that the world needs to take care of themselves. I don't agree that most foods can be nearly as healthful when they are shipped from halfway around the world. Lets look at why...
Lets see, has anyone here tasted a store bought tomato? They are a variety that is basically flavorless, mealy, and has very little nutritional value even if it would be vine ripened. You see they have to be firm and rather dry to withstand being shipped all the way around the country or the world. Just before they get to the store the refridge trucks turn off the fridge and turn on the methane gas to hasten ripenig of this fruit. Bleck! the speed at which they grow is what lessens the food value, the fertilizers, and pesticides all but poison us. But that is just the tomatoes, things are very similar in all areas of the vegies that we buy from supermarkets. And who grows the veggies for all the supermarkets? bigger farmers. We all need to go back to growing our own foods. Sorry I know this infuriates many, but it is my opinion.

oh, and I could care less if someone inherits land from their family. I would love to, as family history and love of the land are incredibly important to me. I would love to have thousands of acres, but I doubt that I would do the same thing with it. Unless MeMo is a very large orgaic farmer(would not want to make any wrong assumptions)perhaps she should look into organic solutions for the fungi growing on her soybeans. Which may only have been caused by weather conditions, it could also have been partially perpetuated by chemical farming means. (i.e. fertilizer and pesticides)

I don't have a whole lot of time to post as I am at work and would get in trouble. I really am getting frustrated at the tone this forum has taken and am taking offense at it. Lesli - while I do not condone MeMo's tone of her post - she also has some valid points. And I will try to post my opinions at a later time (if this doesn't get pulled because it has turned so personal and mean spirited). My post right now is addressed towards "soybean fungi". I am sure MeMo is referring to soybean rust. That is a very very very serious disease and it can be devastating to all soybean farmers, including those that farm organically. Go to the www.usda.gov website and do a search of soybean rust.

I am curious do you have proof that soybean rust can be treated organically? Or that it was perpetuated by fertilizer or chemicals? I would like to see that proof - is there a website you can point me to.

As far as blasting the big farmers - still don't know what you mean by big farmers. Not everyone can raise their own food. Not everyone is willing to pay the prices that are charged by organic producers. The American consumer wants perfect looking cheap food. Our friends sell sweet corn at road side stands. Some want sweet corn raised without chemicals and some complain when there are a few bugs on the sweet corn because they did not spray.

I wrote:
Unless MeMo is a very large orgaic farmer(would not want to make any wrong assumptions)perhaps she should look into organic solutions for the fungi growing on her soybeans. Which may only have been caused by weather conditions, it could also have been partially perpetuated by chemical farming means. (i.e. fertilizer and pesticides)

I don't need to offer proof that chemicals caused the problem. I don't even know if she uses chems, like I said and very carefully used the word "may", and only offered that an organic solution "may be available".

Chemical fertilizers and pesticides kill off the good microbes in the soil that benifit the plants by breaking down nutrients so that the plants can use them, and those that fight off harmful fungi and other problems. There is lots of info out there on the net, I don't feel compelled to spend my day looking up and quoting them to you, I have already done my studying. I don't know that she even really has soybean rust or if she was using that as an example of her day to day worries. I was merely making a suggestion, and I don't see where the offence has to be taken from that.
Personal and mean spirited, I don't see that even from MeMo. I feel that we would all probably be pretty good friends in real life if we were thrown into a room to get to know one another. I think the problems rise from making blanket statements that several of us have done (including myself). Not seeing that we truely are more a like than different. I dont really think anyone has gotten personal. We don't know enough about each other to get personal. She didn't like what I said about raising your own food and what not makes you a farmer and I didn't like it when she said I could not make a living on what I have, etc. NOthing personal or mean spirited.

Believe me there have been some personal and mean spirited threads here, but this is not one of them.

I will give you one that I know off hand with out looking up, it is Dirtdoctor.com, lots of info there.

Don't know if it will say anything about soybeans at all. I don't raise soybeans down here in TX. I can see where soybeans are important in vegan and vegetarian diets, but personally I would not be affected if no one grew them at all. So I will give you some ammo against me, I don't know much about soybeans or soybean rust. I know that whole grain cornmeal does seem to have a huge impact on most fungi(even rust) as does garlic, as in Garlic GP TM

"I can see where soybeans are important in vegan and vegetarian diets, but personally I would not be affected if no one grew them at all."

You have to be joking. There's soy in a heck of a lot more than tofu. And a huge percentage of it is propping up the protein content of what you feed your livestock, unless you are grinding your own whole grains.

" I do have a problem with growing "food for the world". I think that the world needs to take care of themselves."

You've got to be joking. (gee, did I hear an echo?) Please forget studying farming and do a repeat of Econ 101 and 102 -- basic concepts of supply and demand, with a little monetary and fiscal policy mixed with balance of trade. What happens when "the world" is the next town, and the hungry people aren't growing their own food because they're maintaining your electric lines or staffing your hospital? How do those without land eat? Or is that what governments should be dabbling in? The history of the world from the Garden Eden on is about who owns the land because that's who eats, unless the landowner is induced by the desire for other goods and services to share.

The title a person takes is determined by scale of economy. If I kill and cut up a hog for my family, do I tell people I'm a butcher? No, the butcher provides that service and product to others for financial gain. If I tweak my computer a little, run a cord to my DH's computer and type on GW am I an IT person? No, an IT person provides that expertise to others for financial gain. It is the primary good or service that he exchanges for food and other necessities. Except that direct trade is inefficient and supply is imperfect, so we trade for a 3rd commodity, money, which can be traded for all consumption needs. So why the heck is it so hard to figure out what a farmer is? Grow a huge garden to feed your family, you're still a gardener not a farmer. Take direct responsibility for the growth of a product dependent on the land and sell it as your primary output for financial gain, you're a farmer -- 2 acres or 2000.

I know I'll be sorry when I hit the post button.

I want to stay out of this train wreck...but I have to say to Susans last post:

Touche!

From Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: farm·er
Pronunciation: 'fär-m&r
Function: noun
1 : a person who pays a fixed sum for some privilege or source of income
2 : a person who cultivates land or crops or raises animals or fish
3 : YOKEL, BUMPKIN

Anybody here fit any of these descriptions? Gee, the cultivation of land or crops isn't even the first definition! Some days I feel like a bumpkin, and I can't wait until the chickens start laying and I can get some of those really orange yokels. :~D

Well, if you knew my diet you would understand. I didn't say the world would not miss it. I am sure they would, I said "I personally". I have several fam. members that have severe allergies to soy. I try to minimize my use of it so my kids don't develope sensitivity to it. As advised by my Dr. I am not saying it has no nutritional value or is of no value, I am saying it is not an important ingrediant in MY diet. But I do realize it is in everything. I guess I get the most in my bread, Natures Own, with 2%or less soy flour and may or may not have less than 2 % soy oil. Which is to me insignificant, because I don't believe I would miss it if it wasn't in my bread, because when I bake my own, its not there.

As to everything else, I am dropping out of this race, I believe that there are two distinct ideals here, and I don't see where all the rest of this has anything to do with the original question. Sorry Jan.

Hey! here is an idea, lets get them to make soy fuel for my car and be half the price of gas and available here in TX and I gaurentee I will change my mind (c; I sure hope no one here is really getting angry, to me none of this is anything worth getting the least bit upset about. My intended tone really is mild, sometimes perky, hope it is coming across that way. Truely Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Lesli8 hold the phone.........i trucked a few toamtoes never saw a truck with methene gas on board ? don't spread something thats just NOT true........ the tomatoe's are gas(hot house) tomatoes,... but thats because of and without getting caried away the way WE wanted it.......you figure out the rest...

My brother in law's parents both trucked tomatoes and that was their story, they would not eat store bought tomatoes for anything, if they are making it up? Perhaps different companies, different practices. Sorry but the rest of what you said--huh? sorry can't decipher what you are saying.

If you live on a small acerage and raise most of what you eat but don't neccessarily make a "living" off the land does that not qualify as homesteading? ...Jaime

Jaime, that is my definition of a homesteader. I'm not sure what all the ruccus(sp) is about. Modern homesteaders use their land for their family, and farmers use their land for income. Seems simple to me...but what do I know?

Leslie, the good news is that they ARE turning soy into fuel! Hopefully it will be a viable,renewable and inexpensive fuel source one day!

I can't believe I am contributing to this anymore, but was just curious, what you farm police would give us permission to call ourselves (mind you I already said I don't consider my self a farmer) what if you are a person like Suzie or myself, who don't live on the not-a-farm so it is not-a-homestead for us either, but do sell and have sold animals and goods that you raise on your land, but you have other jobs too? So although you do have income, it is not your sole income, or even the majority of it. Because for us it is not a hobby, we need every scrap of income we can get outside and from the not-a-farm/not-a-homestead?

I'd say you live on an acreage, and as far as

Because for us it is not a hobby, we need every scrap of income we can get outside and from the not-a-farm/not-a-homestead?

I'd say spending less time on the internet might be the ticket.

find jamie--tell him he's not a farmer--after all, his wife works off the farm. really, it dosent matter to me what anyone calls themselves, but around here most farmers have to have one or the other seeking off-farm employment. farming IS a rough life, and anymore, with the prices of land, equiptment, fuel, etc, its not as easy as it used to be to exist solely off the farm income. to me--think maybe its my age? but--to me homesteading started when the settlers moved onto a piece of land, built a home and started farming-without all the paperwork! free land is long gone. so-be you big farmer, little farmer--or farmerette-i dont mind.

oh, now the farm police is in charge of the farm forum and my computer!

I'm done!

Leslie, whats with all the frusrtration over this for you? Why is this so personal? I'm not being catty, I'm serious.

I think it boils down to sensitivity.
Some people want to label themselves "A" while
others put them in the "B" category. or Vice-Versa.
Unless we have an act of congress to define what makes a farmer, everyones opinions are just that. It makes no sense for either side to vocalize so loudly over an undefined issue.
I live on 10 acres. I sell, I try to be as self-sufficient as possible. I consider myself a farmer. If it doesn't jive with someone else.. I really don't care no matter what the majority is. I'm also a little overweight (about 20 lbs says my daughter). Some people say I'm not. That doesn't change anything. The sun is hot, snow is cold, I'm overweight, live on a farm, & a pig's butt is made out of pork.
What's the big deal?

ö¿ö
~

Tom

Leslie8 Sorry i gave you more credit than i should have.i posted>>>>>but thats because of and without getting caried away the way WE wanted it.......you figure out the rest...
My point was>> the buyers demand a quality product, at a cut throat price, and all (most)sellers will meet demands, no matter what/who suffers. just make the bottom line profitable.
unfortunately thats what happened to the way Amercians do things, Really think this post has lost any thing of value. just turned into a spitting contest........but you might want to listen again to your Kin, about a methene gas on board truck rolling down the highway LOL take care

Im not sure why but all this reminds me of my dad.
My father was not a farmer (didnt even garden). He was a carpenter. A carpenters carpenter. He started working in a lumber mill at 13, ran crews in subdivisions as a young man, and later employed crews of his own. Later in his life he settled into high end custom work. He did custom cabinet and millwork, built and restored furniture and wooden boats. He studied the art of ship building with an almost religious fervor. He collected, restored and used antique wood working tools. By every definition he was a real carpenter; a true craftsman.

But there was this man he knew my best friends fatherthat was not a "carpenter". This man worked in a factory that made piston rings, and did woodworking as a hobby. I remember my father looking at some of the small pieces of furniture that this man made and being in complete awe. He told him, "Jim, I dont know if you could make a living at thisyour too good." My dad had the greatest respect for this mans skill and artistry.
Over the years, dad and I worked with many "carpenters" whose skills earned no respect. They came and went. Yet I will always remember the way my father respected, and admired the carpentry skills of this non-carpenter.

Does any of that make sense?

Dan
(working into farming so that hopefully my great, great grandkids can say that they are fourth generation farmers.)

Dan, not only does it make perfect sense, it's a beautiful story.

Thank you for sharing it. Your love for your dad shines through...even in black and white.

Suzie

Any time a thread gets over about 30 follow-ups on here ya know its been run right off the track. The thing about a train wreck is that I cant resist the temptation to look even though it might make me a bit nauseous ;-)

Real farmers please stop reading now, unless youre self-righteouscause the following is not directed at you and I sure dont want to stir up any bad feelings...

If you park your tractor tomorrow and quit farming, do you really believe that anyone will go hungry as a result? Are all the X-boxes, electronic ignition modules, and life-support equipment at the hospital going to disappear from the shelves if I choose to quit doing electronic circuit design, turn off my computer, and buy myself a tractor instead?

(scrape, scrape pulling high horse out from behind bank of lights-a-blinkin test equipment in my nice, air-conditioned office and climbing into the saddle)

Tell you what, all ye righteous farmers - I bow before you as noble and self-sacrificing beings, thanks for the food and all. Now then every time you power up your computer or flip a light switch or crank your tractor, I hope youre saying a little prayer of thanksgiving to all the hard-working electrical engineers out there that made it possible, laboring deep into the night and on weekends, making this country great. Ok, well, some of them are probably playing computer games over the company network with their geek friends, but I would NEVER hmmm, disregard, disregard.

(snif, sob) Im so unappreciated and misunderstood. Im going to run off to the Serious Engineering for Very Busy Serious Professionals forum now where everyone is friendly and supportive and understands the special burdens I have CHOSEN to bear.

(climbing off my high horse and - ouch - pulling tongue out of cheek where it was firmly wedged)

Yep, SilverVista is right read up on economic theory if you are not maximizing your productivity and earnings potential you are not doing anyone any favors. If you cant manage the risk and make a decent living at the profession you have chosen, then get a new game plan or find something else to pursue. If you love your profession so much that you will continue to pursue it even though its tough and risky, more power to ya but dont cry about it, please. Youre just making yourself ridiculous.

Game on, girls - flame me if you dare :-D

Man, what a hornet's nest. All Jan asked for was opinions.
I've been around these forums for nearly 10 years, and have seen these sorts of threads get out of hand from time to time, with one or more folks 'taking their toys and going home', or even progressing to the point that Spike has to banish posters. Sad, really.
Personally, I didn't see anything inflammatory in PunkinPatch or MeMo's posts, but Lesli8 sure seems to have taken it as a personal affront to her very being.
I've always had more land, livestock, and experience with livestock than the majority of folks frequenting this forum, and while I've been known to consider myself a farmer/rancher from time to time, with my small acreage(under 190 acres) and small herd(under 100 head) I KNOW I'll never make enough money from the farming/ranching enterprise to have a reasonable standard of living just from what the farm produces. It's a 'lifestyle' choice for me. I enjoy seeing those new calves hit the ground, wanted my kids raised in a rural setting - and hope that I can instill in them some modicum of a work ethic - and love for the land. And, I do make a little money off the cows some years, to supplement the off-farm income from both my wife and myself.

Like some of the previous posters, I'm not too interested in posts about a lame duckling or a chicken with diarrhea, but I've raised & worked with both of those species - and experienced those same problems at one time or another, so I understand those poster's concerns. I probably won't be spending a lot of time reading them, though. As PP & MM said, there's usually not much here for most of us with larger operations, but I've seen helpful information provided to newbies and oldsters by long-time members like them, as well as NebrJewel, ArkieMa, etc. It would be a shame for them to leave just because someone got their nose out of joint about whether someone considers them to be a 'real' farmer or not.

I don't spend a lot of time here, but I check in from time to time to see what's going on - and to ride herd on some of the veterinary medical misinformation that gets thrown out by some folks from time to time.

Y'all all take a chill pill and cool off. Farm Life or Rural Living, it doesn't matter what you call it, there's room - and need - for all the folks who frequent this 'place', as well as their differing experiences.

pffft - this thread is no hornet's nest - it's a bar-room brawl. The folks that haven't beat it for the door yet are still hanging around because they might get a chance to land a free punch or two :-P

Pretty difficult not to take remarks personally - when someone whose initials are MeMo sends her messages addressed by name.

Something to think about: Rudeness is a small person's way of feeling superior.

Oh, my GOD! This is the first time I've even read this thread! *L* It's ridiculous! People arguing about who is more superior, important to the world and self-sacrificing? This IS a joke, right? Right...?

melee AL said it best. We are ALL vital, important members of the same human race.

And I only see one person in here that came in strictly to stir up a hornet's nest. That they succeeded is sad.

And by the way...if you ignore ONE sick animal (even if it does cost only 59 cents) and just 'let it die' you are a fool who hasn't the sense to realize that that one sick animal could well be carrying an illness that could wipe out your entire flock. Smart farmers (of any size concern) have the brains to practice good husbandry of their animals and the land, and to protect their investment in such. All those 59 cent, 59 dollar or 59 hundred dollar investments add up! If you aren't smart enough to do this you may as well just take your money out and throw it in the street. :)

Velvet

I did take a moment and to read MeMo's 'My Page' in an effort to learn more about her amazing, huge farm....instead, I found it interesting that she takes great pride in being a 'backyard gardener/cottage gardener' but only mentions that she 'moved to the country last year'....last year? But I read in her first post to this thread that "We spend more on equipment and machinery every couple of years than most city folks spend on their homes" and also to be a 'generational farmer' to have been one for years.

Which is true, please...?

*I think you're busted...* :)

Well I swore I wasn't going to post back here but had to make sure I thanked a few people. Thank you Silvervista for your comments about soybeans and about feeding the world. I am very proud that I help feed the world.

Thank you Lucky for your post - I totally agree with what you have said and couldn't have said it any better. And I too don't think MeMo's post was so bad.

Now I would like to address Velvet Sparrow's posts. Am I missing something - why can't you live on a farm and be a backyard gardener/cottage gardener? Okay and I may be wrong here and I too may be making assumptions but why do you think that just because MeMo moved to the country last year that she can't be part of a farm operation? My sister and her husband are part of a family farm operation. They farm along with her brother-in-law and father-in-law. Her brother-in-law and sister-in-law live in a housing development. This is not that unusual in family farm operations in that one member lives on the farm and the rest have to live where there is available housing. Until last year my brother was farming my parents farm (we had to sell the farm and unfortunately, he could not afford to buy it from my parents). He would be considered a generational farmer in that my great great grandparents were some of the first settlers in Nebraska. And guess what? He lived in town and worked construction jobs and farmed after he got off work. This is not that unusual. I am not stating this in defense of MeMo. I'm stating this in that people need to recognize how different farmers live and work. And there is no doubt in my mind that some farmers spend more on their equipment than what people spend on their houses. Combines sell for at least $100,000 (that's one combine and that doesn't count the tractors, planters, wagons, trucks, irrigation equipment, etc. etc.)

Now back to what is a farmer? I discussed this with a person who used to post on here. I told her that I sometimes feel bad calling myself a farmer because both my husband and I work off of the farm. However, if something happened to our lamb crop (which by the way, did this year - another story), or we only get $1.50 per bushel for corn, etc. we would still be able to pay our insurance, buy prescriptions, etc. because our sole income did rely on farming. In fact, our occupations listed on our tax return does not list farmer, even though we claim farm deductions.

Isn't this that same nightmare thread from a few years back??
I'm truly torn between rolling my eyes and sighing or pulling up a chair for the rest of the "show". Sadly this forum is starting to get more and more like the trash TV that I remember (when I had cable TV). Grab your hoes and pitchforks and we'll start a show up! So much tension, personal jabs and undercurrents. it would work. Farm Fued Frolic. Dueling Farm wives. Add jello and it could be a real $ maker
maybe we should preface our threads "hobby/homestead farm? or big commercial farming ? Warning; simple newbie chicken ?. Wait, we have thread titles, skip over what you are not interested in.
Are the "real farmers" really so jaded/or busy that they cannot appreciate some one who is proud of new first chicks or worried about their first flock or sick bird?
I think the heat is doing a fair amount of stirring the pot perhaps. What does the almanac say for today? Astrology stuff? what gives?
rrrreawrr "sound of cats fighting"
I'm not even going to give IMHO about the original question as this happen last time too.. Poor Jan, you had no idea of the "who's a real farmer discrimination" in this country. No appologies needed.

I'm willing to take private bets of how many more replies before this thread gets yanked. LOL
Now I'm off to my 18th century women's sight where VERY extreme polite manners must prevail ...or ye be tarred and feathered.
your most humble and obedient servant bids you gods speed,
leannepa
(who was born at the wrong century croft owner who is really missing Lee Fireraven9 now)

Is a farmer not someone who farms? If there is an agreed definition of farming (and maybe there is not) then farmers are those who are doing this activity.

I think it is a bit like teachers. It is a calling. There are those who earn their lving from teaching (whether they do it well or poorly). They are, by profession, teachers. Then there are those who facilitate learning by others, whether ot not they are paid for it. In this role they are teachers because they are teaching.

Similarly, a person who takes responsiblity for producing crops (animal or vegetable) on a piece of land is farming and in that role, is a farmer, whether or not it produces enough to make a living. If you only take an income approach, startup farms which are not yet paying their way are run by whom? Play farmers?

In Canada overall, the average net farm income, without subsidies and insurance payouts, is a negative number. There are a lot of people who devote all their working hours to farming and don't make enough to support their families by this activity.

I can see all sides of this issue, but I think of this forum as a place to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. Yes, there are lots of other (and more comprehensive) poultry, dog & horse forums out there, but where else can you ask questions about tractors, frost-free hydrants, fencing, livestock guardian dogs, barns, sheep, crops ... ? I'm naming some of the many things I've asked or read about in the past 5 years. Most of my poultry, horse & organic farming questions are best answered elsewhere (I must have 20 forums bookmarked that I check weekly).

Believe me, I have looked for other good farm (or "country living", if you will) forums online, and there just aren't many. Try to do an internet search on something like burying waterlines to the barn ... there are very few resources out there, so the best way to do this kind of research is to ask other people who live on "farms".

Basically, I think most of us come here because there is really no other place for us to discuss these kinds of things. Like many others, I just skip the discussions about poultry and such ... but occasionally, I myself have a poultry question to ask. I don't think this forum would be nearly as helpful without the experienced farmers - that kind of wisdom just isn't available in books.

Pam

OK, I don't have time right now to read all of the posts but I read the first few and here is what I think. A farmer is anyone who is growing something in hope of making a profit or a living from their work. I have a market garden and I am loosing money hand over fist right now but I have the intent of making money so I think a farmer label could be applied. I also have a flock of pullets who are going to start laying any day now- I bought them as chicks for the express purpose of selling eggs. The only one with a name is the rooster. Next year we are going to be aquiring our first cows that we are goinng to be raising for beef.

One of the big walls that a lot of farmers put up is this illusion that you have to come from a farming background to be considered a real farmer. There are some people who I have to tell that my grandfather was raised on a farm and our family still owns it. I have to do this because I would not be taken seriously by some of them if I said that my father worked in DC for all of his life. There are others who learn that my farming background is a little stale (LOL) and so they take me under their wing and help me learn. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE these people. I will only talk farming with people who are passionate about being farmers.

I just went down to Joel Salatins farm for the field day and am inspired for what we are going to be doing next year. One of the local farmers who heard I was going down there said "don't get any crazy ideas from that guy." Guess who I will never ask advice from?? He is such a doubter and a pessimist that I have no interest in learning anything from him. If I am going to make farming a full time proffession than I want to emmulate people who are thrilled and happy about what they are doing. I know that farming isn't all happy days and bright skies but I want to feel good about what I am doing at the end of a day.

WOW- this an emotional topic & vocal bunch! I'll come clean upfront & say my husband & I are farmers in Nebraska, growing corn & soybeans on over 6000 acres. There are probably farmers out there who do just as much with 20 acres only they have a different commodity and location. Our operation is large acre-wise, mechanized and labor dependent however there are some that are small in physical size, but extremely labor intesive. I have mutual respect for both types of operations. Size in farming is relative. If you were to ask the government, I believe on surveys anyone who earns more than $1000 annually can be classified as a farmer. That's really not a very good indicator in my opinion because farming is so varied. To me a hobby farmer is someone who enjoys farming and would do it irregardless of the profitability. A lot of times people looking in from the outside might not give enough credit to the contributions that smaller farmers efforts make to their families happiness and income and their community's success. In most cases, I'd consider a true farmer someone whose livelihood is dependent on their operation or or someone whose farming endeavor contributes to the overall well-being of the individual or family. I also believe a true farmer is one who is a good steward of the land and has the best interest of future generations at heart. I don't believe you need to grow up on a farm to be a farmer. You do need a willingness to learn, a driving spirit, perseverance, an independent attitude and a respect for your fellow man and nature. Farmers generally have a competitive and entrepreneurial spirit. At least that's what I see in the farmers around me!

It's finally time for Gardenweb to make three new forums.

Poultry and poultry care
Rural living
Farming: large scale

I'm sure there are others.

Well Done Mountain Man, but why not a 4th for fun "Are female Farmers better than Male Farmers?" I have enjoyed myself immensely reading this forum, it shows that humans are proud of what they do, and want to pass their knowledge on, if the internet was not here I reckon the big farmers would just get bigger and they would not have time to pass their knowledge on and animals and crops would suffer. Free information allows us all to feed ourselves. Would anyone begrudge telling a poor man how to rear chickens? He He

I'm getting a kick out of it as well. I have seen precious few posts pertaining to full time farming issues and don't expect to. That's fine with me. If we had to depend on that to keep hits coming to this forum, we'd still be on page one. Uncle sammy makes me file a farm form on my taxes, so regardless of what I grow to qualify or how many acres I need in which to do it, or what someone on a forum thinks it takes to qualify me.............if He says I'm a farmer, I is one.

It doesn't bother me to see folks who have moved from an urban existance interested in how to be good stewards of their little piece of land. I much, much, MUCH prefer that someone who moves into a cornfield in my view do that than erect a McMansion and install enough security lights around them that my hens start laying at midnight. rofl.