I'm growing stone fruit in my greenhouse at 6ft by 8ft spacing. The trees are very productive top to bottom mostly starting in the 2nd leaf. I need to prune about every 6 wks but it isn't that much of a job. There are a few cultivars that are more difficult to manage than others but they still work. I've done well enough to think about increasing the density to 1ft by 8ft on a V trellis.

I don't fertilize at all and limit water. Getting the water right is a big help. Plus my soil is rather weak. Trees or anything else tend to not get too big unless you really push the water and fertilizer.

When I was in CA I planted stone fruit on a 5ft by 10ft spacing. This was too thick but at the time I didn't realize I was over watering and probably over fertilizing.

I think some people will get into a mess of overly vigorous trees that don't set many fruit buds in the lower canopy or perhaps not at all and require excessive pruning. Dave Wilson seems to think any density will work if you just prune enough. I'm not so sure. But we can plant a lot thicker than we used to think.

The Fruitnut

I have many closely-spaced rows, with as little as 1' spacing. Most of the trees are 2-3' apart and in rows 10' apart. It is working for me, but it is not as easy as they make it seem I would say. In the east diseases are a big problem so you have to keep things from getting too dense or you will have a mess on your hands. I started with too many scaffold limbs. Now most trees have either two or three main limbs coming out from about 2-3' off the ground. Some trees are only spindles, there is only room for one trunk. I don't mind odd-shaped trees if thats what gets an open spacing; my Yellow Bellflower tree is an "r" shape, it had too much competition so now its just a trunk with one scaffold coming out the side. I do "hedging" pruning with hedge trimmers in the summer to reduce the vigor, and do thinning in the winter. So I end up doing a lot of both summer and winter pruning. The winter is the time I thin the scaffolds out. I don't allow any 1" or bigger limbs to be closer than 1-2' from another one (either on same or different tree); if they are too close I pick one to remove. This is more extreme than the Dave Wilson approach of only removing crossing limbs. Maybe in dry California you can get away with their approach, but not here in Maryland.

It is probably a bit easier to do ~4' spacing for dwarf apples ~5' for peaches and ~6' for plums/apricots/cherries, then you won't have to work as hard to keep things under control. Before I figured out to reduce the number of scaffolds I got too little light in the lower parts and reduced the potential fruiting - the exact problem fruitnut mentions. I have managed to get back to a good state on nearly all trees, there are only a few that are still out of hand. Damson plum for some reason I have had a very hard time with, I have this super-vigorous tree which I let get far too thick. I have been working on it the last couple of years and am hopeful it will finally get into line next year.

Scott

Heck yeah it works- increased sales to high margin customers!

Seriously, I haven't tried 4 to a hole but 2 works well for me. If you're skilled enough to make 4 trees work in a space for one I'd think you could master bud grafting and just grow several varieties on one trunk. But then again, I plant 2 peaches in space for one because I'm too impatient to wait for grafts so I guess I'm being hypocritical.

Summer pruning is essential in my training of peaches in any case- to keep light down where I have peaches growing and where I want peaches the following year. I actually summer prune everything so I can keep up with all the trees I manage and don't have to do it all in the dormant season. It also helps to control harmful fungus.

It's a bit of a delicate choreaography because you don't want to prune so much as to stunt the trees or stress them. I suppose this is more an issue in areas like mine with actual winters.

These are helpful comments, thanks for posting them. I don't mind the summer pruning - actually enjoy doing it. This year, several of the trees look like they'll be loaded with flowers, so maybe it will be successful.

My grafting skills leave a lot to be desired - I did manage to get about 10% success on an apple tree. I also have a purchased 4-in-1 cherry and 4-in-1. The pear bore a big bowl of fruit in its 3rd year. The cherry is mostly 1 variety which had a lot more vigor than the others.

Whether you have multi grafted trees or many trees close together you will need to use your pruning skills to keep the more vigorous cultivars in their place. You may have to concentrate most of your pruning on just one cultivar or tree. But since you enjoy the pruning you should be able to make things work.

Apples are a good place to learn grafting and budding. Sounds like you have a good start there as well.

I agree with harvestman. Some of the push toward higher densities is a marketing tool. But the skills we learn by pushing things makes our hobby interesting.

The Fruitnut

* "Set reasonable expectations. You will get a lot less fruit and have a lot more work with a tree that's managed according to the DW approach. The goal is successive ripening in a regular backyard for a typical family."

This is an endorsement? Do you mean you will get a lot less fruit at a given time from a variety because it represents only a quarter of the tree or are you talking about yeald per quarter acre. If it's the former I'd be hesitant to follow you.

Those of us following Backyard Orchard Culture get less fruit from a summer pruned tree, with the immature fruit thinned every 4 to 6 inches, than a tree that is allowed to grow and spread more freely (assuming far less pruning and thinning). With BOC the tree is only allowed to get higher than you can reach standing on the ground.

This approach may or may not be for everyone. Basically, it is what it is and the entire approach is clearly spelled out with articles and step by step videos on the website. What it is not (among other things) is a way to "shoehorn" more fruit onto a smaller tree.

I'd like to ask a question with regard to this method. I've just started to read "The Grafter's Handbook", and in the beginning it talks about grafts done in nature. I was wondering if one could simply put 3 trunks next to each other and allow them to graft together naturally. For instance tie the trunks together, assuming they are compatible, and loosen the ties as they begin to grow. This seems like an easier method than a mulitgraft. It seem like it would be a whole lot easier than managing several trees planted closely together. Am I out on a limb here?

Thanks for the comments. They are helpful and encouraging. You are right, I'm not trying to make huge amounts of fruit, just enough for my household and some friends, and variety / longer season is more important than quantity on one tree.

Mile high girl - I think that some trees have been 'joined' with this method but I don't think it is usually effective. You might want to start a thread on grafting to get more comments about that technique!

You can grow trees touching each other in the same hole and in time you can make them grow together as one(pleach). The Flemmings Nursery in Australia recommends this with their Duo and Trio method. I have tried it but you have to pay a lot of attention to them for years. All my attempts end up growing apart from one and other and it is very difficult to get them back together. I think that like "pleaching" there is a grafting element that should be applied to help things along, but I have not figured it out. I have though, braided 3 and 4 figs together and they pleached without any extra effort. I got the idea in K Mart at x-mas about 15 years ago after seeing braided Ficus benjamina. Just for fun

I've heard some problems with multiple trees/hole blowing down in windy climates, so it may be a good idea to braid for those in windy locations. I've braided a couple of persimmons in one hole, although they haven't grown together yet. Read once about an apple guy who braided his grafts when he top-worked. Said it worked real good.

eukofios, I think you're doing OK. There may be seasonal and other setbacks, but by and large the BOC approach is fairly well documented. Whereas growing stone fruits in a greenhouse while holding back an unspecified amount of water or nutrients or "melding" trees together may or may not be. As for marketing ploys, BOC challenges the greatest of all marketing ploys that suggests fruit trees need to be spaced so that tractors can gain access come harvest time. If you have a standard suburban lot and want to walk out your back door and pluck off a piece of tasty fruit (almost) year round, then BOC is an option. If you are into canning, mega-harvesting, pruning/harvesting from a ladder or greenhousing, it might not be.

spacing trees for tractors is not a marketing ploy it's a necesary accomodation for commercial production.

mrclint:

We appreciate your input. But there is no reason to knock what anyone else is doing. And there is no need to knock an honest opinion offered by folks who have supported Dave Wilson, the Zaigers, this website, and home fruit growing in a big way for many years. One reason people come here is to get unbiased opinions from others who aren't trying to sell them something. Just because we have reservations that the ultra high densities might not work for everyone under all conditions, doesn't mean we blast the whole deal. Several of those that have responded are pushing the density envelope has hard as anyone. We have earned the right to have a reservation or two.

The Fruitnut

"There is no reason to knock what anyone else is doing."

Sorry for any heartburn I may have caused. The original poster asked for help with backyard orchard culture and was offered tips on growing fruit trees in a green house, an incorrect synopsis of the BOC approach, and most importantly having the approach referred to as a marketing tool. I'm telling eukofios that it is a perfectly fine approach, to set the proper level of expectation, to make sure he's not skipping steps and to follow the guidelines.

I'm doing fine with this approach with a couple of hedgerows (4' on center) and a couple of multi-plantings (3 trees per hole with 18'' spacing). What I'm not doing is pole pruning, climbing ladders and harvesting bushel baskets full of fruit from any single tree. I've had those kinds of fruit trees in the past and prefer this method.

Fruitnut, what is this "we". This is an anonymous group of bloggers, most of whom don't even use thier real names. These aren't real friends and this isn't a substantilally socially connected collective here. I-Village owns this site and invites all to use it to thier own wishes within the rules of the site. There is no heirarchy based on seniority- it isn't enforceable and isn't I-Vilage's intent.

I just had a run-in with a person who goes as Brandon because he fealt I was intentionally disrespecting his input. To me this is nonsense- different people have different styles- some more combative than others. I like strong opinions stated in the style that reflects their feelings and personality. Others don't. But this blog doesn't belong to any of us and no contributor has any authority to assert their own rules.

I say this with all due respect, and I personally don't participate in this blog as an outlet for my testosterone induced heirarchal instincts (well actually I probably do, but I just can't help it). I am just fiercely determined to work through the BS and figure out what really works.

Competition is good.

Hman, humans form friendships and social connections 24/7. We also make hierarchies 24/7, its in our blood. This group thankfully doesn't have a very strong hierarchy but some online groups do. Also, all that i-Village has made is a playground, the games we play here are all up to us.

Scott

I find my efriends becoming a little testes and feelings are going to be ehurt. Why don't "we" just drop this thread and move on?

The topic of social engineering has been addressed. ;)

Is Backyard Orchard Culture really that much of a hot button topic? Can we continue the discussion after the self-appointed thread closer has put their foot down?

eukofios, I would begin to look at the rootstocks, soil drainage, where the trees were purchased, sun exposure and other environmental issues. Did you choose good rootstocks for the PNW (is PNW the same as MNW)? You don't need a dwarf rootstock in order to keep a tree on the small side. Some rootstocks do not tolerate/thrive in wetter conditions.

I disagree with one opinion above; I think it is important that we try to be polite towards each other. And BTW, I'm not saying that anyone above wasn't polite. When I think of a blog, I envision something that is often just one person's ideas and something that, if you don't agree with, you don't have to come back to read. Here it's best if everyone feels welcome. In my opinion, this is not even close to a blog, it's a public group conversation meant to be welcoming to everyone with any interest in the topics. Gardenweb only works when everyone feels welcome.

One thing I read above that doesn't make sense to me is the discussion about production per acre with the BOC method. This would be irrelevant.

Actually the thread above seems completely civil to me. I have a question about this BOC method being "well documented". What does this mean? Have records been kept of time investment in and harvest quantity and quality out?
Have comparisons been made about brix content of fruit produced this way?

When I read about it in a DW catalogue a few years ago they didn't go into detail about any kind of research. I think it's only natural to be a bit skeptical when a nursery is the source for a suggestion of using 4 trees in the normal space of 1.

Alan, Here is an attempt at a longer answer to your question.

I agree that initial skepticism is justified given the confluence of interest on the part of nurseries: "hey, lets quadruple sales!". There are no formal studies of BYOC that I know of, but there are almost no studies of any backyard fruit growing method, period -- researchers don't get their bread buttered by the backyard grower (to say the least; I have yet to find a single University researcher that will even bother to reply to my email). So, I don't think the lack of studies means anything. What convinced me to try it is a number of anecdotal success stories I heard from the west coast. I also have heard many positive comments from UC Davis staff on the method. Within CRFG it is a widely accepted method, or at least so is my impression as a long-distance member reading their publications for the last half-dozen years.

My primary reservation about it concerns its adaptability to the east. Most of California gets boatloads of sun. In the east we can get a whole week without a drop of direct sun. This makes it less likely to get fruit on a thick canopy since the dense parts will get relatively little sun in the east whereas in the west they will get much more over a season. Also, along with no sun likely comes a bunch of rain which makes our disease problem much more severe and a greater need for better air circulation. As I wrote above, after my eight years of experimenting with it I tentatively feel this shortcoming can be overcome with more spacing between scaffolds, which does make the pruning task more difficult. I have also heard a few reports of these same shortcomings from California growers, and so expect these are also problems there but to a lesser degree.

A secondary shortcoming is the quantity - it is obviously not an optimal method for harvesting the maximal quantity (and, I don't think anyone ever claimed it was). I don't think quality is sacrificed at all; my backyard Galas and Fujis are much, much sweeter than the store versions (or any of the farmers market versions I have tried).

The method also has some "hidden bonuses": when a tree dies, the neighbors fill in the space in a season or two; rootstock failure destroys an n-way graft but not a n-in-one-hole; you get to pick the varieties on your n-in-one and not be restricted to what is available. Lastly, it allows guys like me to grow 500 varieties in 1/4 acre and have a whole hoot of fun.

Scott

Great, now I just have to market it to my customers and, yahoo, quadruple my sales

Hey guys, there's a backyard apple orchard in Chicago! See the link.

Since I'm in pacific northwest, I have generally cool summers and not as much sun as california, by far. That is an issue for my figs (which I defer to the fig forum) as well. Gene's Chicago backyard orchard sounds great, although I don't know if stone fruits will acccept the same culture methods.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gene's Backyard Orchard

Hey, you folks are great! Thanks for keeping the discussion alive, lively and helpful. :)

I've got to admit that the call for brix readings from a backyard orchardist gave me a good chuckle, thanks for that. I don't think a store bought piece of fruit is going to show a higher brix than a tree ripened piece of fruit.

Yes, here in So Cal our shade may be brighter than full sun in some locales. It doesn't take much to fry even sun/heat loving tomatoes.

There is one negative to BOC that I will admit to. The trees are so short and full that you can't just place a chair under them and enjoy the shade. Probably not good for stringing a hammock or a tree swing either.

As for the approach being well documented, there's a lot of stuff out there. There are tree videos from the UC Davis curriculum that details the BOC approach along with espaliers and such. The DW boys frequently make the rounds on the DIY network gardening shows like Paul James' show and such. If you're interested you should seek out some of the episodes and youtube videos, or else you'll have to just stay crusty and cynical. ;)

At any rate, grab a tasty beverage and enjoy the movies:
* High Density Fruit Tree Growing
* High density fruit tree planting
* UMass Fruit Advisor - 09/02/08
* How to Thin Your Fruit Tree

Dear Mr Clint, wait a minute- getting brix readings isn't that complicated. I think DW could well afford a little systematic comparison. Summer pruning in excess has long been considered problematic in diluting soluble solids and therefore quality of fruit. Comparing to store bought as a quality evaluation is what's laughable to me. Well not laughable but at least not very informative.

Hman, I have found that my dwarf apples in their 6th leaf need relatively little summer pruning - once they are fully bearing the amount of excess wood produced is small. Last summer I only summer pruned my apples once. So for my apples once they are fully bearing they are not so hard to control and there will be no brix issue.

The plums on the other hand are still growing like weeds. The fruit is super-sweet so it doesn't subjectively seem like a problem, but this is not scientific data. One change I have made to my plum pruning is to prune the non-flower-bud shoots back to very short lengths in the winter, almost like spur-pruning on grapes. Since they are starting out with only short branches there is less of a need to summer prune.

Scott

You'll have to search for brix readings. There may be some info out there. Brix is an indicator of sweetness but not necessarily an indication of balance or complex flavors. It is of value because it is about the only thing that can be truly quantifiable. Knowing that taste is completely subjective, the Double Delight nectarines that I harvested last year were the best nectarines that I've ever eaten. A brix reading may or may not bear that out. Also, the sub-acid fruits have amazingly complex flavors, can be harvested while still a bit crunchy, and still have a nice balanced flavor. There's value in going for sweetness, and I have not found any of the fruits to be lacking in that regard.

Fuji and Goldrush have equal brix on average- both off the charts. Completely different apples- Fuji almost moronically sweet but a wonderful crisp sweet- Would you consider Goldrush complex?

I've always thought complex to be an interesting word, a little snobby as an apple description perhaps but how exactly would you describe complex?

Would it be a balance of sugar and acid with the addition of a distinct aroma or are we talking about multiple aromas? I gladly settle for one. Had a baked Northern Spy today- talk about aroma! Not particularly high brix though.

Yeah, "complex" is a little bit hoity-toity. I would be fine with "compound" or "layered" I suppose. There's certainly more to describing the flavor of really good fruit -- more than just sweet, sour, bitter or whatever happens to waft thru your nose holes. LOL

In a pinch, delicious works fine though. ;)

To the consumer, texture is the most important issue, I think, thus the explosive popularity of the explosively crisp Honeycrisp. This is a distinctly non-distinct apple in regards other than texture. Yet I do like it.

eukofios:

Regarding your initial message which expressed concern about sever summer pruning methods, I have found great success with the high density spacing of fruit trees system.

I am in So. Calif. with lots of sun as has been noted. USDA zone 10 and Sunset zone 20. My spacing varies between 5 and 10 feet.

In pruning fruit trees, no matter what time of year, how often one prunes or what spacing is employed one must always leave fruiting wood on the tree if one expects fruit.

There's many books and articles and online posts about what is fruiting wood. Typically these writings will list the types of fruit and how many years old the wood must be to bear fruit. My experience is a bit simpler. On all stone fruit trees, sometimes one year old wood will bear fruit and almost always two year old wood will bear fruit. That same wood can go on to bear for a few more years. (I'm counting such that one year old wood is a branch grown new the previous year AND that the tree itself is at least 2 or 3 years in your ground)

To make it a bit simpler, when pruning be sure to leave some of the smaller newer growth. If you lop off everything and leave just mini-logs, you will not get fruit.

Pomme fruit requires a bit more attention. Apples are either tip bearing or spur bearing. An example of a tip bearing apple is Fuji. If one cuts off all the tips of all the branches, one won't get Fuji apples. Of course there are the exceptions. There are some Fuji varieties that are spur bearers. Spurs are short little branch-like things about 1 inch long that grow all along the branches of spur bearing apples. When pruning this type of apple tree, just make sure you leave a good amount spurs which is where the tree produces flowers and fruit.

Not to worry too much about it. One year and you'll get the hang of it. Two years and you'll be an expert.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: Tony's Mini-Orchard

Actually, I've never seen a Fuji that doesn't bear the majority of its crop on 2-year wood- I don't keep track of the different sports, but sports don't usually alter the bearing habits of a cultivar- when it does they often put spur in it's name.

Fuji is noted for bearing some of its largest apples on tips but that is not where the bulk of my fruit comes from in my experience. Still, this is the second time someone on this site has suggested Fuji to be primarily tip-bearing. Wonder why?

One thing about tip-bearing I find interesting is that some varieties such as Jonagold tip-bear, well actually, bear on annual wood, on alternate years. This can play havoc with grafts. It's not helpful when your little graft becomes a pregnant infant! You can save the graft by removing flowers but you sure won't get much growth.

I apply the simple method of looking for flower buds when pruning. I prune off more on the non-flower-bearing shoots then the flower-bearing. I made a few mistakes in deciding what was a flower and what was not, but every year I get better at it.

My Fuji had lots of non-tip fruit last year and I have also not noticed a strong tip-fruiting tendency there.

Scott

Thanks Scott, now I wonder where that rumor started. Is there a Fuji sport out there that bears like yellow transparent?

Some apples have flower buds that are easily recognizable, some not. Northern Spy, for instance has tiny flower buds that are difficult to distinguish from leaf buds.

I was pruning some Macs today where the flowers on 2-year wood were very easy to identify but the spur flowers were a mystery, I'm not sure which were blanks. I ended up leaving more 2-year wood than normal to be safe.

Rather than try to squeeze a bunch of trees together and then severely prune each year, I would see what the recommended spacing is for each type of tree/rootstock combination. Hopefully your apples are on M9 or Bud9 roots. If you have stronger roots, you ought to put the grafts severally on fewer trees.
I don't think an Apple tree on M26 should be closer than 10 feet from the next one.
As for Pears on Quince, you could get as close as 8 feet.
Stone fruit is 'all over the map' as for vigor, but in a word, if you have the trees crowded, you're cutting a lot of your crop off every year in a vain effort to keep the trees smaller than they ought to be.
Another problem is that the crowding reduces light intensity and the severe pruning will keep the trees more vigorous on the remaining wood, which works against fruit bud development.

Here is a link that might be useful: pruning of fruit trees

scottfsmith 6B/7A MD

Yes, this forum (Fruits and Orchards), is a lot more user friendly than some others. I can tell you that the topic which you are raising is very much alive on other forums and it can get very testy at times.

I don't think an Apple tree on M26 should be closer than 10 feet from the next one. boizeau

A Braeburn on M26 could be considerably closer than 10 feet on my place, and my ground is pretty fertile.
I just pulled out some Fujiis that were about twenty years old and were 12 foot by 6 foot. Planting them close seems to dwarf the trees by having them compete with each other. Also pruning the devil out of them helps.
It just depends on your ground and the scion. yeh, a Mutsu on M26 ten feet apart, probably not a good idea.
Orchards are like puppies, they are all cute when they are little.

As I understand it, planting 4 trees in a single hole creates a strong dwarfing affect as the trees compete with each other so you are really treating 4 as 1 and planting this 4 tree to normal spacing only using 4 instead of 1. Do I have this right? It certainly seems to work for me with my 2 tree in 1 hole plantings.

The way to think of it is four trees in one hole will eventually be about like one tree in the hole, and more low and wide since it starts out wider. So, each tree is 1/4 what it would have been if planted individually.

I have recently found a new method I like for maximum number of varieties without too much pain: do two trees in each hole and do each 2-tree in a zig-zag 6' or so apart trunk to trunk. This gives something like one variety every 2' of row as you walk down it.

Scott

Here is a bit of an update on my on highly pruned trees. I have 4 sweeet cherries, all pruned to less than 7 ft tall, all started as whips 4 or 5 years ago. Last year they bloomed but no fruit due to a late frost. Here are photos with 2 of those trees now, one is blooming well and the other is almost open. The others are either blooming or almost blooming.

I also have several apples, a pear, and figs, which have been pruned with a similar philosophy, but it's too early to post photos from this year's flowers or fruits. The apples and pear look like they'll also have lots of flowers.

Maybe it does work. We'll see.

Since there are lots of flowers now, maybe there will be lots of cherries this summer. There is still some room for more growth, I can let them get to 7 or 8 foot without a problem, but plan to continue the somewhat drastic summer pruning as we have done so far.

These were from a big box store and it did not state what rootstock, other than 'semi dwarf'.

I did not use to multi-trees per hole method because I was not aware of it at the time, but otherwise am doing the summer pruning as described for backyard orchard culture.

{{gwi:65939}}

Here is a bit of an update on my on highly pruned trees. I have 4 sweeet cherries, all pruned to less than 7 ft tall, all started as whips 4 or 5 years ago. Last year they bloomed but no fruit due to a late frost. Here are photos with 2 of those trees now, one is blooming well and the other is almost open. The others are either blooming or almost blooming.

I also have several apples, a pear, and figs, which have been pruned with a similar philosophy, but it's too early to post photos from this year's flowers or fruits. The apples and pear look like they'll also have lots of flowers.

Maybe it does work. We'll see.

Since there are lots of flowers now, maybe there will be lots of cherries this summer. There is still some room for more growth, I can let them get to 7 or 8 foot without a problem, but plan to continue the somewhat drastic summer pruning as we have done so far.

These were from a big box store and it did not state what rootstock, other than 'semi dwarf'.

I did not use to multi-trees per hole method because I was not aware of it at the time, but otherwise am doing the summer pruning as described for backyard orchard culture.

{{gwi:65939}}

Those are looking good! In my climate I have mine a bit less dense than that in terms of number of shoots, just to keep the diseases down.

Scott