It can't find any information on best pruning system for Crimson and Reliance grapes. The only 1 thing I find for Reliance is to spur prune based on this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RlcIZ2HbUvYC&pg=PA196&dq=reliance+grape+spur+prune&hl=en&ei=C290Teb1O4f4gAfcl_w7&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=reliance%20grape%20spur%20prune&f=false

Also does anyone know if these 2 have a drooping habit? I find nothing at all that says specifically what their habits are. Just the generalization that Vitis labrusca (Reliance and Crimson are labruscas) have a drooping growth habit. If so I will high cordon trellis train them. I'd really like to do a vsp (verticle shoot position) growing system for these because the 4 grape varieties I'm doing are flame, thompson, reliance, and crimson. Flame and thompson are both upright growing.

I'm planning a 32 ft trellis row for these 4 grapes, 8 feet apart. I think it would be more attractive if the 4 were VSP style next to each other. If these 2 are drooping, then maybe I'll alternate between low VSP and high cordon (Flame, Reliance, Thompson, then crimson order).

Here is a link that might be useful: http://books.google.com/books?id=RlcIZ2HbUvYC&pg=PA196&dq=reliance+grape+spur+prune&hl=en&ei=C290Teb1O4f4gAfcl_w7&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=reliance%20grape%20spur%20prune&f=false

Grrr, sorry for the confusion, I tried to post my 2nd post as a separate post since its a different topic question but gardenweb merged my two postings together. Sorry!

You can start either way on new vines. I'm starting new vines as well and will train one cane up to trellis wire and let the others sprawl to strenghten the vine. If I can get enough growth the first year I'll have a modest crop the second.

I've grown dozens of table grape varieties including the four you have and have always cane pruned with great results. I don't understand exactly what you are saying about different growth habits. To me they are all about the same. Just position the vines to capture maximum light.

Crimson seedless is a very vigorous vinifera. The fruit needs good light exposure to develop color. I still have a little of last years fruit in the frig. They're still eatable, well sorta.

At first allow 3 of those buds to grow. As they grow pick out the strongest vine. (That is by the book.) Keep that vine fairly well pinched back to one trunk unless you get to a point you want a cane spur. You can allow some branching for leaves but don't let them compete with the main trunk. (That is my experience.)

Doing it this way I've had results from fruit the second year on a Kniffen with local rooted, to reaching the top wire on an 8' T or having to cut them back near the ground the second year with bare root (that one refused to wake up).

Thanks myk1, I'll do that.

Fruitnut, it was you who inspired me to hunt for Crimson and Summer Royale. I was not able to obtain Summer Royal :( I ended up getting Crimson from ebay who some else on this forum bought from.

Growth habits: I don't know how much this really matters but, they say the labruscas have a drooping habit. This means that you're suppose to have them high, and the growth will grow down.

Trellis for trailing growth habit

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Trellis for upright habit

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For me the new canes off the trellis wire all arch up a foot or two but then hang down under their own weight. I don't think you will find that much difference between any of these. I could be wrong.

For any you can set up a trellis that trains the new shoots up and out or pretty much out and flat. But I don't think any will just go up as your last drawing suggests. If they do the new shoots will be short, like 2-3ft. When the canes get long, past 4ft, they all droop down.

My Crimson vine in the greenhouse was very vigorous, a 4 inch trunk at 6ft height after 6 years. I took it out this winter due to leaf roll virus infection. The replacements are in pots to control vigor.

My trellis is two wires at 7.5ft and 2ft apart. The new canes each spring grew very strongly and rapidly upward at about a 45 degree angle. When they reached about 4ft length the weigh would start to pull them over. In another month the canes were 7+ft and hanging straight down over both sides of the two wires. This gave a canopy about 6ft wide and 8ft tall. If left unpruned the new canes would grow to 20ft.

I'm going to pots hoping to limit canes to about 6-8ft new growth. The Princess vine I had in a pot 6 years had canes about that length and a canopy about 6 by 6 by 8ft, just what I want.

Crimson is the most vigorous vine I've ever had.

That's funny people draw those nice orderly pictures of grape vines like either way would ever happen without a lot of input.

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/ is pretty reliable for giving accurate information on whether a grape should be cordon or cane pruned (they prefer cordon) and if there is such a thing as upright or drooping they would mention it.

Post pictures fruit nut! :)

Thanks for the bunchgrapes link. I'm determined to get mine as pretty as the drawing. Hahaha. I'm going to give this plan a try and see how it goes. I'll be sure to prune the crimson canes since they've got such vigor.

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I just finished converting ALL my vines to VSP, even the "labrusca" vines which started out with high wire cordons. I grow all my vines with low cordons and vertical shoots. I found that even my labrusca types prefer to grow vertically if they can find some support.

Your trellis looks very similar to the system I use, except I use PAIRS of wires where you show wires at 4.33ft and 5.5ft. My posts are 4x4's with a wire on each side, so the wires are about 4 inches apart. When the shoots are long enough, I walk through and tuck the shoots between the wires. This keeps the shoots nice and orderly and upright. Without the pairs of wires you'll have to do a lot of shoot tying to keep things vertical - even for the vinifera types.

All of my vines are spur pruned.

backyardener:

I'm wondering why you spur prune? I've always cane pruned seedless table grapes and have had good success. Maybe I should try some spur pruning. I've heard that any grape can be cane pruned but some aren't good for spur because the first few buds aren't fruitful.

The OSU link listed says most table grapes yield more cane pruned. Your thoughts?

Here is a link that might be useful: OSU pruning

I have a few thoughts...

I've tried cane pruning on a couple vines, and I couldn't tell any difference in the fruit quality or the yield so I abandoned the idea. I find spur pruning to be quicker and a lot simpler. In my opinion, either method is fine unless you are dealing with one of those few varieties that do no produce fruit on the first few buds. Dis-regarding those varieties, just go with what you know and what works for you.

The only other reason I can see that cane pruning would be better is that buds with high light exposure usually produce more fruit. With cane pruning you can choose the canes that got the most light whereas with spur pruning your choices are very limited. We have plenty of sunshine here, so I don't see it as an issue, but in Oregon (not as much sunshine) it may be more important. I'm guessing the distinction between table and wine grapes is because, with wine grapes, you don't want high yield (many clusters are often dropped at veraison) so being a little less fruitful is no problem.

I've visited several commercial vineyards here in Idaho. We have both table and wine grape vineyards in the area, and all that I have visited are spur pruning and producing very high quality fruit. I know that what is best for commercial growers is not always what is best for "backyard" growers, but in this case, it does show that spur pruning is commercially viable (at least in the Snake River Valley).

Fruitnut, I think it was you who, a couple of years ago, advised me to visit the U of I research facility. I'm really glad you did, I got some vines (cuttings) from them and learned a lot about viticulture and fruit growing in general. Thanks for the suggestion.

backyardener:

Thanks for the well thought out response. I think one reason spur pruning is popular commercially is that it is faster and easier which equals lower cost.

Have you given thought to trying Summer Royal grape? I'm rooting a few cuttings off my new plants. All my plants are being replaced due to leaf roll virus...I probably already said that. But if you'd like to try some I'll get you a plant or two if these root.

Fruitnut, I would be very interested in Summer Royal - I don't currently grow it. I've seen you recommend it before and have wanted to try it, but non-labrusca vines are hard to find around here. I'd really appreciate it. Can you send me an email (not sure if this feature works on this forum)?

That is an excellent idea about using 2 wires 4 inches apart backyardner. I was planning on constantly stretchy taping every cane to the catch wire but it's much faster just to weave them through 2 wires when they get a bit past that height. Thanks. Hmmm, I kind of like the idea of the way I have them alternating high and low for fun, but if all them were VSP, it would be a lot easier to put bird netting on since the grapes would all be at the same height. I think I'll do high and low just so that I get first hand experience of the two systems. Also I'm going to still cane prune the Thompson and spur the rest so that I get some experience in that too.

How far apart are you're 4x4's and what width of wire are you using? I just bought 3/16" and I'm a bit concerned about too much pull on my 4x4's since I have then 32 feet apart with the middle one acting as a pass through (drilling holes through it and just passing the wire through). Got any pictures posted of your trellis?

Fruitnut: I tried calling almost every single nursery in Austin trying to find Summer Royal to no avail. I called a dozen places in the greater Houston area. No luck. Then I tried calling half of dallas/ft worth and only found one place that had em. NE Dallas, Covington's nursery. Too far for me to drive. I'm very new to fruit planting anyways so I figure I'll make all my mistakes hopefully in the first two years and eventually will run across Summer Royal.

nguyena1, sorry I don't have any pictures of my trellis handy. I use 14 gauge high tensile wire, not sure what that equals in width. I wouldn't drill holes in your middle post. I use heavy duty staples and staple the wires (1 on each side of the post to keep them 4-inches apart). Since you only have 1 center post (your 16ft spacing is fine), I think I'd skip the staples and just buy eye-loops, screw them to the outsides of the posts, and thread the wires through them. One thing you might consider is lowering the bottom wire to 3 ft and raising the top wire(s) to 6+ feet. I'm guessing you have a long growing season in Austin and the vines will probably produce some pretty long canes.

Your concern about the pull on the outside posts is valid, 4 vines with full crop load will be pretty heavy. You should probably use some kind of bracing or anchoring to prevent the posts from leaning inward. It might be overkill for 4 vines (I'm not sure), but I have a habit of over-engineering things. I like h-braces at the ends, I don't like the anchor wires on the outside because they are a tripping hazard (google vineyard trellis bracing and anchoring).

It's not a bad idea to experiment with high and low cordons and figure out which you like best. The high cordons can be converted to low cordons later if you wish (that's what I did on the labrusca types). You just let shoots grow low down, train them to the low wire and whack the trunk above the shoots. No crop will be lost if you grow the low shoots during the year the high cordon is producing fruit.

Super old post, I know, but I'm having the same trouble you are finding info on what pruning method to use for my table grapes, Anthony. I have Reliance & Somerset Seedless & have scoured the net to find something, ANYTHING! I can't remember which variety has a drooping habit & which has an upright habit, so I'm just doing both the same, plus, mine are growing on a high 12' pergola in my backyard & are already tricky to get to. I am able to, of course, but if I'd have to tie up every shoot of one variety, well, that's too much ladder time for me!

I'm interested to see what you ended up doing & how they're coming along. And if you've found any more info on which pruning method to use, as well as training method.

Thanks!

Nic

There are some variations on first year grape vine training. For the vineyard, the first year is to go for the roots. For first year bare root planting, 3 buds are kept at spring pruning time. So three canes are allowed to grow, just in case of late spring cold damage or whatever reason. Then they retain at least two canes to develop and keep all the laterals. This allows most foliage to develop and make max amount of plant food to feed the roots. Also, the 2nd is an insurance for any damage to one of the canes.

At start of 2nd year, if the main cane has enough thickness and the trunk reaches the main wire, cordons are trained. If the trunk is thin or the trunk is not long enough, then the trunk is cut back and trained again. You want a strong main trunk and root system to develop the very first year.