My opinion is that having rootstocks that come out of dormancy late is a big advantage that can translate into longer survival for the tree as well as more frequent productive years. It may be worthwhile to grow your own rootstocks rather than rely on volunteers; I've found those in the Morris Burton line to be particularly late. After a year or two these seedlings are ready to be grafted.

I've found kaki seedlings harder to work with the virginiana, but some one of us, I think it was Tony, seemed not to have a problem with them. I would think that if grafted very low and the base of the tree protected in winter could be a good option in terms of compatibility though I don't know how kaki rootstocks would affect the timing of breaking dormancy.

CF, Creek,

The Honan Red, Saijo,and Sheng grafted on Kaki rootstocks are still dormant in zone 5 now. I will update when they leaf out.

Tony

Thanks, Tony and Creek, for the replies. Creek, what about kaki seedlings do you find makes them harder to work with? And I don't understand why a kaki grafted onto kaki rootstock would need special protection for the rootstock when the grafted portion isn't protected. In other words, if a grafted kaki can survive unprotected why wouldn't a kaki rootstock be equally hardy? Has anyone observed differences in the dates that kakis leaf out when grafted on kaki vs. virginiana (and maybe vs. lotus) roostock? It seems lots of trees survived for decades at Wye Plantation in Maryland all on virginiana roostock, and that's the easiest/most available option for me, but my main interest in trying kaki rootstock would be to see if I could get better grafting success. I'm trying bagging all my persimmon grafts this year with row cover cloth at grafting time to protect them from psylla, and I'm hoping that will make a difference, but I've probably made nearly 100 kaki and kaki X grafts onto volunteer (i.e. in the field/ground) seedlings the last three years and hardly any have taken and none of those survived through til the next year. One year from grafting purchased kaki trees have done fine for me, though. I have also had relatively better success grafting virginiana on volunteer virginiana and some limited success grafting kaki on potted virginiana. My best guess at this point as to why I had some success with the potted rootstocks is that they were indoors protected from psylla long enough, but it also could have been temperature or soil moisture or easier/better removal of competing growth below graft...

Small numbers in my sample, and may not be statistically significant, but I've had better survival of kakis 'high-worked' - 4-8 ft above ground - on D.v. than on those that were grafted low on the rootstock.

I know it's pecans & not persimmons, but Dr. Bill Reid's recent posts in his northern pecan blog detail some of the issues associated with recent frosts and impact on emerging buds/foliage and height above ground that are potentially applicable.

Here is a link that might be useful: N.Pecan blog - frost & damage

Question is why would kaki rootstocks need special weather protection while the rest of the kaki tree may not. The logic applied here uses the assumptions that the cold hardiness of the rootstock affects the cold hardiness of the entire tree, that virginiana is a more cold hardy rootstock than kaki and that previous cold hardy assessments of kaki were made on virginiana rootstock. So if a particular kaki on virginiana rootstock is known to be cold hardy without protection to -6F and it were desired to grow that kaki on kaki rootstock instead, that kaki rootstock would need to be made as robust and supportive of the tree at -6F as the virginiana rootstock had been in order to achieve the same cold hardiness, and so would require extra protection from the cold. The top part of the tree would still be kaki and so would not need protection.

So what do you personally think, Creek, of the logic that "the cold hardiness of the rootstock affects the cold hardiness of the entire tree"? I can see that that's a possibility, but I'm not aware of any evidence for the hypothesis. Does cold hardiness increase with any other interspecific grafts? Or is a chain simply as weak as its weakest link? The way nurseries recommend virginiana rootstock for northern locations certainly seems to suggest that they believe there's an advantage to virginiana rootstock, but maybe it's just because some kakis aren't as cold hardy as others and the seedlings that would be used for rootstock are too variable to be reliable.

I called it an assumption, but it's really a fact that as the roots supply fluid and nutrients to the rest of the tree during the dormant period, cold hardier rootstocks will be healthier and more capable of this task during a challenging winter. The branches will be better nurtured and so better able to survive.Less cold hardy rootstocks that are highly stressed by the conditions and functioning poorly leave the rest of the tree in limbo with death likely at less cold temperatures.

CF,

My Asian persimmons grafted on Kaki rootstocks finally leafed out on 5-6-14. So this will give you a timeline for my zone 5. In order for these guys to survive in my zone, I burried the grafted tree a foot below the grafted union and wrapped them with several layers of tarp and dried leaves in the center.

Tony

Hi Tony, what is your source for kaki rootstocks for zone 5? Let's just say I would be thrilled to be able to grow kaki here in zone 5...