Dave:

I have been bagging apples in ziplock sandwich bags in Great Falls for the past 3 years. I use the lightweight sandwich bags with a double seal, either from Wal-Mart or Safeway's house brand. Not all bags have the same seal design. In addition to clipping the lower corners of the bags, I remove the plastic above the seal after opening the bags to allow for easier installation on apples with short stems. If any leaves are in the way of the apple I choose to bag, I simply remove them.

Properly prepared and installed bags will not open or fall from the trees, even in the strongest storm. You must, however, make very sure the seal is snapped shut along its entire length, except for the small stem opening. If you want to add duct tape (masking tape might be easier) to the bags on your single tree, it certainly won't hurt anything. But I will be bagging all the apples on at least 20 trees, for a total well in excess of 1,500, and resist any modifications that would slow down the installation process without offering any observable benefit. I already begin to see ziplock bags in my sleep. No point in making that situation worse.

I won't be starting to bag until about mid-May, when the apples are sized up a little, have better stems which makes them easier to bag, and I can better select the apple I want to keep in each cluster. Meanwhile, I am spraying with Imidan against plum curculio, Ferbam to stop cedar apple rust, and streptomycin to control fireblight. After bagging, when the threat of disease is gone and the apples are safe from insects, I stop spraying entirely absent some issue such as aphids, which are unlikely due to past dormant oil sprays. I carry the pruner with me when I bag, and remove a lot of early, leafy growth that is unfruitful but has the potential to shade out apples that I want to grow up nice and fat.

I have had some very large apples, such as Spigold, Mutsu, and Winesap, actually open the zippers late in the season by their size alone. But by that time there are no threats, and it makes no difference.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don, thanks so much. I only have one tree and have time to do this. My wife's not crazy about the look of it though! Yes, I have been clipping the corners off the bags as well as the excess plastic above the zipper and I've been cutting the occasional leaf that gets in the way. Have your trees ever dropped any of the apples that have been bagged? Of course you bag later, so by that time they're probably well-developed and past the 'abort' stage. I don't even know what type of apple it is and I'm not even sure I can keep the squirrels from harvesting them early. It would be a shame if after all that the squirrels took them.

I tried searching the other bagging posts, but havenÂt found the answer to my remaining two questions. I've haven't bagged before, but I've been pretty happy with the quality of my apples. That said, 2 questions:
1.) Is there ever a problem with small insects getting in around the small gap between the stem and the bag?
2.) I've had a problem with fly-spec on my apples. The bags will prevent my Bonide fruit tree spray from protecting them. Will the bag prevent my flyspeck?
Sorry if bagging is a tired subject.
Thanks in advance, -Glenn

Glenn:

It is possible for small insects to enter the bags if the zipper is not tight at the stem, and earwigs occasionally do get in, but do no damage. What other insects did you have in mind?

While Bonide combo spray does contain Captan, it is so weak in this component as to be practically useless. You would have to spray on a regular basis to head off flyspeck and sooty blotch even with full-strength Captan.

In my experience, the combo fruit tree sprays are generally ineffective at protecting trees from anything very serious, and are several times more expensive than using selected chemicals that actually target the problem.

I have found the bags to be many times better than a fungicide at reducing, though not entirely eliminating, sooty blotch and flyspeck, and conditions here strongly favor these fungal organisms. When there is a minimal amount, these things can be easily scrubbed off with the rough side of a kitchen sponge.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Glenn
Sooty blotch and flyspeck are major problems for me here in WPA.
The year before last I did my first attempt at bagging; just a trial of 50 apples. Those bagged were significantly freer of sooty blotch. I don't think there is really an effective spray unless you are a licensed applicator.
Due to a bad freeze I had no apples last year but I intend to bag several hundred this year per to Don's instructions.
Jim B

Wow, great information. I wish IÂd found this forum sooner! Thank you so much!

I guess I wasn't worried about any insect in particular, but since the bag protects against insects, I was just wondering if any insects were ever smart enough to find the small opening. I really havenÂt had too many problems yet with insects. Only some aphids which I killed with insecticidal soap. (Not sure if thatÂs the right spray, but itÂs pretty benign and it did the trick)

IÂm not too worried about the cost of the Bonide fruit tree spray, as IÂve barely gone through a $10 quart container of it so far with my trees. But, if itÂs not the right spray for the job, then thatÂs a different story. IÂve had cedar apple rust, apple scab, fire blight, and flyspeck & sooty blotch. I think I may start a new thread and ask for more advice on my spraying. I want to use the best tool for the job.

Sorry to hear about your bad freeze Jim!

Thanks again for all the advice. IÂll be bagging my apples this year.
-Glenn

I used ziplock bags last year for the first time, with reasonable success. A few questions - has anyone tried to seal up the little space where the stem goes into the baggie, with tanglefoot or anything, to keep water and/or bugs out?

And, how do ziplocks compare to the nylon footies? My main problems are codling moth, curculio, and scab, but not so much apple maggot. Just wondering if I could expect similar results with either one.

None of my bags came off last year. I did have more condensation than I'd like, but I didn't clip the corners first, so I had to do it while the bags were on the tree. I also tried perforating some bags with a wire brush to give more circulation, but I don't think I hit on a good perforating method yet.

Good Lord, Mark, don't try to put tanglefoot on the bags. What a mess. It's just not necessary. Nothing injurious will get through the tiny space around the stems if you have the zipper up tight. Bags are to prevent flying insects like codling moth, plum curculion, apple maggot fly, and the stinkbug family from damaging your apples, which they do very well. Do clip the corners before installation, but condensation in the bags does not injure the apples. What troubles you about condensation? You don't need a perforating method, wire brush or otherwise. Scab is best dealt with by dormant sprays of copper, and cleaning up any fallen leaves and fruit under the trees.

Yes, you could use nylon footies on apples, but why would you when they are significantly more expensive than plastic ziploc bags? Footies are necessary for peaches, which can suffer injury in the humidity of the bags and attract earwigs which damage the peaches. If you have apples and peaches, use both.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Nylon footies do not deter Coddling Moth from apples.

Thanks jellyman for your useful response. I thought it was a crazy idea, but what the heck.

I have a feeling that the condensation actually was a problem for some of the apples, particularly Ashmead's Kernel and Calville Blanc d'hiver. The latter were so big as to completely fill the bags, and they did stay wet and ended up cracking in places. Both ripen rather late and there is more time for the humidity to cause problems.

But other apples were perfectly fine, even with condensation in the bags. Lymans Large Summer apples also were big enough to fill the bags completely, but they came out perfect.

I also have peaches, so I'll be trying both this year.

My remaining question is still Will putting on the baggies cause my susceptible trees to get CAR on the apples? It looks like people like Don and Herbert, etc. use Ferbam to prevent CAR two sprays before the baggies go on sounds like a nice solution. But, I can't buy Ferbam as it was taken off the market for home growers. Even if I did want to try to circumvent that, which IÂm not sure I do, I canÂt find it anyway. Is there some other spray that I could use before the bags go on that would make it so I didnÂt have to spray the Bonide? I know Don suggested a dormant spray of copper to help control CAR. But, it didnÂt sound like this was definitive, and if I wait until symptoms develop, itÂs too late. IÂm not crazy about dressing up like an astronaut to spray the Ferbam, but perhaps if it would mean just two sprays instead of Bonide every 7-10 days, perhaps itÂs worth it. Do people have any hints on how to obtain? If not, do people think that just the dormant copper spray would be enough to control my heavy CAR for next year? If not, will the baggies prevent the Bonide from being effective, thus giving me CAR on my apples? Thank you for your time (and patience with me!)
- Glenn

You could use simple old sulfur, it works for CAR; perhaps not as good as some of the chemical controls. You may have to spray a bit more often, depending on the weather.

As I understand, once the bag is on, the apple is protected. So if you've kept the CAR spores off of them before bagging, you should be fine.

Hello all. I am in Minneapolis, zone 4a. With our slow Spring, has anyone here started bagging yet? This will be my first year trying it.

I am not sure what type of apple tree I have, but the apples only get about 2-3 inches in diameter. In 2006 we got a couple of maggot-less apples, but last year was horrible. Not one without them. I am hoping to do better this year by bagging them soon! We didn't get as many flowers this year. I didn't look too closely at the whole tree, but I noticed a few large pea size fruits today.

Here is a link that might be useful: UMN Extension says 2nd/3rd week of June!

Ellen:

Perhaps your apples remain small because you do not thin them. Thin to one per cluster if you want apples of healthy size. It is also possible that insect damage has affected the size of your apples. Bagging should cure that.

The UMN Extension website suggests "tie or staple the bags loosely around the stem". That is bad advice. Using ziplocks, you want to close the zipper as tightly as you can on both sides of the stem. Neither the stem nor the apple will suffer.

The website also says "many types of plastic bags can be used", and suggests stapling as an option. More bad advice. The best type of bag for this application is the standard ziplock sandwich bag, and there is no reason to use anything else, particularly anything that must be stapled or tied. Stapling or tying are awkward procedures that slow down the bag installation process, and are unnecessary when using ziplocs.

You can start bagging as soon as you have clearly identified the largest, fastest-growing apple in each cluster and have thinned off all the others. That should be well before the apple maggots become active.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Thanks for reading the link and giving me your feedback! I will buy some Gladlock bags, they are cheaper, and get out there this weekend! Do you not find that the wind will work the zip lose enough for the bag to fly off? I suppose if you lose a couple to the wind it is not a big deal.

Thanks again. Elleni

My bags have been on for three weeks and not a single one has fallen off except those where the apple itself was naturally let go by the tree. There has been quite a bit of sustained winds but not much over 20MPH.

I thinned out and bagged 55 apples today. There are probably another 20-30 I can still reach without a step ladder. I may go back out tomorrow and do more. I used zip-type bags and clipped just the smallest bit of each corner of the bags. I hope I did enough. Here are some pictures.

{{gwi:93788}} and {{gwi:93789}}

Glenn:

You seem particularly concerned about cedar apple rust on your apples, which I can well understand since this disease has also been a serious problem for me.

First, the Ferbam. I was able to find it at a chemical company that services the commercial grower trade, and I am quite sure that if you searched the net you could also find it by internet or mailorder. I do not personally believe that ferbam is highly toxic to humans, but whether it is or not, I place myself in no danger and I do not dress up like an astronaut when I apply it. I do have a long, stand-back wand for my backpack sprayer, and spray only when wind conditions are calm. If there is even a slight breeze, I keep myself upwind. I apply ferbam wearing a t-shirt and shorts (and sunglasses), and wait until the spray has fallen on the leaves before moving around to a different angle so that none of the spray material falls on me. It also helps to keep your trees pruned down to a reasonable height so that you seldom find yourself spraying upward. That's one of the reasons I have converted all my central leader trees to a lower vase shape. A series of consistently windy/rainy days can effectively shut my spraying operations down, but that's just the way it is. I don't spray on days like that.

Commercial orchardists use highly powered motorized sprayers that fill the entire orchard with spray mist. They have to suit up before doing this, but my spraying techniques are much more careful and targeted, and I don't believe I have to.

CAR strikes very early, and if you are going to have it, it will be there before you thin and bag the apples. It is visible on the calyx end of the apple, and the little developing apples are often distorted because of it. If you see a perfect apple, without any sign of the yellow/orange stain, you can bag it with confidence because the CAR spores are effectively cut off from the apple by the bag.

I do think that dormant copper sprays are effective at controlling overwintering spores of CAR, scab, and other fungal diseases, but new CAR infections can blow in with the rain from elsewhere in any given spring. Ferbam may not be the only fungicide effective against CAR, but it is the one I found and was able to buy. To be effective, the first Ferbam spray should be applied as soon as apples begin blooming.

The fungicide component of Bonide Fruit Tree Spray, which is Captan, is not effective against CAR even if you applied it in pure form and at full strength. My only complaint about Ferbam is its granular composition, which never fully dissolves. As a result, I have to clean out the in-line filter in my sprayer wand with a toothbrush each time I refill it when using this chemical.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

All very, very good information Don. Thanks so much!

One thing that jumps out in my in your posting is talking about the Bonide's Captan not helping with the CAR. In looking at the Bonide label, it says that it is effective against "Cedar Rust". But, then looking at my container of Captain, it doesn't say anything about it. Could there be another ingredient in the Bonide that's helping? Or is the Bonide misrepresenting? No wonder I've been struggling with CAR if my sprays aren't really doing anything to prevent it! I've only got 3 smaller trees with are non Disease Resistant mostly due to the CAR.

Thank you so much for your time. Now, I'm going to re-read your post a couple times. Thank you again! -Glenn

Glenn:

It's pretty easy to find out exactly what is in the Bonide fruit tree spray. It's on the label, and I'm pretty sure it's Sevin and Malathion, both insecticides, and Captan as a fungicide. Most other brands of combo fruit tree sprays also contain these same ingredients, with minor variations. Sevin and Malathion are also ineffective against the most troublesome early insect on apples, which is plum curculio, and only marginally so on codling moth. They may be effective against apple maggot fly, but if you bag you apples you don't have to worry about these latecomers. Malathion is effective against aphids, and Sevin is excellent on Japanese Beetles, but not much else.

Combo fruit tree sprays are easy and convenient, though expensive. My main problem with them is that they use ineffective ingredients in ineffective concentrations for the insects and diseases on my fruit. Imidan and permethrin do work on most early apple insects. If you want to use Malathion or Sevin, you are better off buying and mixing up those insecticides than using a combo spray.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Don-

My apologies to others for partially hijacking this thread. We were talking about bagging apples¡K but this has to do with the spraying once they¡¦re bagged

You¡¦re right. Bonide is:
12% Captan (and related derivatives)
6% Malathion
0.3% Carbayl (Sevin)
81.7% other

I actually only have minor problems with Aphids... In the past, when I've got them, I just used a little insecticidal soap, or possibly just a hose. (But, maybe I'd have a bigger problem with Aphids if I wasn't spraying the Malathion in the Bonide is helping with them) I do get the a good amount of Japanese Beetles near my raspberries, so it sounds like the Sevin it contains is a good thing.

I'm a bit miffed though with Bonide then... saying they're effective against CAR, when their main ingredient Captan isn't. Unless possibly there's something in the "Other Ingredients".. which I don¡¦t think they could do. No wonder CAR is my biggest disease issue.

I¡¦m a very effective Google¡¦r, and I¡¦ve searched the net twice now for Ferbam using ¡§Farm Supply Chemical¡¨ and ¡§Orchard Supply Chemical¡¨, and then searching online catalogs, etc, but still nothing for Ferbam. Only other inquiries about people who are desperate to buy it. Maybe if I call some of these places on Monday, they¡¦ll tell me over the phone that they carry it. If you think of the name of the place, or a very precise Google search phrase º, feel free to mention it¡K but I understand your reluctance.

Mostly due to CAR, 4 of my 7 young trees are disease resistant.

As a side note, once we level and loom the front yard in 2 more years, I¡¦m thinking about taking down my 2 oaks and 2 choke cherries and making my front yard an orchard. I¡¦ll move 4 of my 7 trees to the front where they¡¦ll finally get the light they deserve. I¡¦d prefer that they get more light than they do.

Have a good one, and thank you for all your contributions here!
-Glenn

Hi,

Can somebody please tell me how to get rid of the moisture collected in the bags.

Thank you,

Sophie

''Bags obtained from the local hardware or discount store can be used in place of the Japanese bags. A 3-pound paper bag that has been cut to about 6 inches in length is equivalent to the size of the Japanese bags. A 1-1/2 inch slit is cut into the opening of the bag. The bag is placed over the developing apple by slipping the slit of the bag over the stem of the apple. The opening of the bag is pleated shut and a short piece of twist tie is used to secure the bag firmly to the fruit.'' --uky.edu