best thing to do is plan way ahead & stay ahead on gardening. you know the varieties that grow well in your area, wherever that may be? you have the irrigation systems? you are capable of harvesting all the fruit & transporting & selling? I suppose this is not 'breaking new ground' for you. I tried to grow a few tomnatoes to sell last season. Doing all tomato growing completely different after that experience. Next season trying the commercial varieties for this area. Hope your plans successful.

you know the varieties that grow well in your area, wherever that may be?
I know the ones that "should" grow well but this year, nothing did.

you have the irrigation systems?
No. I grew up with a dad who raised acres of tobacco. Irrigation was not an option. TBO, this past year was the you are capable of harvesting all the fruit & transporting & selling?

For the most part, yes. I Need to get one of those baby pools, the ones that are about a foot high and 10' wide, to use as a chlorine wash for the toms. Then they get packed into boxes or baskets or bags!

I suppose this is not 'breaking new ground' for you.
Not completely. I've sold plants and to a lesser extent some toms and basil, but never on this level. A good week in the past was 50 pounds, now I'm looking at close to 100 times that!

I tried to grow a few tomatoes to sell last season. Doing all tomato growing completely different after that experience. Next season trying the commercial varieties for this area.

Live, try and learn!

Hope your plans successful.

Ditto for yours!

Mike

At first I want to say is Good Luck.

Next, I want to offer some hard comments. How many plants are you planning on planting? Are you selling every tomato or just Number 1's and 2's. Do you have a contract already with these stores or are you just waiting until you have product to sell and going to talk to them? If you are doing number two, it probably won't work. Many places have contracts already lined up. Also some places they have to order through their lines of supply.

How are you going to harvest, store transport 4,000 pounds a week? How did you figure this 4,000 pounds? According to my calculations, that would be over 130, 30 pounds boxes.

Supporting your plants. I will need a stake every 3 plants minimum. 5-8 plants, it won't work. The sod will grow and the plants will produce and then the rodents will move in. You will have lots of loss.

While I want to be your biggest cheerleader, I am seeing some holes in your plan.

Here is a plan on growing tomatoes, you may want to look it over.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Tomato Production

Jay,

Next, I want to offer some hard comments. How many plants are you planning on planting? Are you selling every tomato or just Number 1's and 2's. Do you have a contract already with these stores or are you just waiting until you have product to sell and going to talk to them? If you are doing number two, it probably won't work. Many places have contracts already lined up. Also some places they have to order through their lines of supply.

I should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500 plants. Obviously, I will not be able to sell "every" tomato as I'm sure some will not be good for anything except juice. The best will go to the stores, the ones with slight blemishes to individuals/Farmers Markets.

I have talked with a few businesses and have been trying to meet with the guy who runs two large produce stores. I know he buys locally but the last three times I have been in to see him, he has been MIA. I have not contacted Kroger yet, as I'm trying to collect feedback on if this is feasible.

How are you going to harvest, store transport 4,000 pounds a week? How did you figure this 4,000 pounds? According to my calculations, that would be over 130, 30 pounds boxes.
I was figuring a little less than two pounds per plant per week. I do have a pick-em-up truck!

I will need a stake every 3 plants minimum. 5-8 plants, it won't work. The sod will grow and the plants will produce and then the rodents will move in. You will have lots of loss.

I staked them every 3-4 plants last year in my garden but they were indeterminates. I'll be growing determinates in the plot. I can keep the sod trimmed and if necessary mix up a batch of week killer and spray it right before the toms start to sprawl. Found a killer organic mix (water, vinegar and sugar, IIRC) that is a contact killer. Our July and August days are usually extremely calm so I won't have to worry about drifting. Rodents might be a problem but the land in next to an Interstate (inner city) and it has a fence around it. Plus, there is not enough room for geese to land - they are becoming a huge problem in places.

I am seeing some holes in your plan. That's why I posted it! I would greatly to know what I didn't think about now instead of in August!

Thanks,

Mike

Wiz-

Are you doing this all on your own or do you have some help??? Be nice if you could get an extra hand or two...any kids you can put into action?

Some day i hope to be able to sell excess produce. I do think you have to catch the early/late season if you want to make money. I've thought about high value items like garlic, berries... I'm waiting until my two children are old enough so they can help out!

I have a couple of children but cannot really count on them too much, unfortunately! Ditto for my wife - at least in the field as she suffers from diabetes, arthritis and has trouble with bright sunlight.

From research, it should take me about 350 hours over the entire year. Tilling/getting it ready for planting will take probably about 30 hours, planting 60, weeding/tending, 40, picking and delivery 200 and clean-up 20.

Mike

Mike,

I was going to ask you how much help you are planning on getting.

I think your hours are a little low. Let's do a little math. If you have 2500 plants and you spend 1 minute picking each plant. 2500 x 1 min = 2500 minutes / 60 = 41.67 hours. OK, lets say you are super fast, 30 seconds a plant, that is 20.8 hours picking, even faster 15 seconds, that would be 10.4 hours picking. That is 10.4 hours straight, no breaks and keeping that pace up for 10.4 hours.

Irrigation? You are going with none? In my opinion, that is a risky gamble. However, I live in Kansas. It can turn of dry for month at a time.

Please let me know what you think. I want you to be successful, but you have to be realistic to. I know that I wouldn't plant 2500 tomato plants and tend to the by myself. One would need help. The most I have ever heard was 800 and they had 5 family members for help. (in my area).

I plant and manage close to 200 plants, but they are all in my high tunnels. They are my biggest money maker, but also the most time intensive plants!

Jay

Washing your tomatoes in cholorine is not something I would want to buy. It doesn't sound too organic or natural.

Organic certification is a pain, but it prevents eating stuff like this.

Starwood,

Chlorine is a natural element and is added to swimming pools. I guess you don't go swimming in pools?

Good grief - it is people like you who give growing organics a bad name.

Mike

I agree with starwood! Chlorine turns your hair green and your eyes red!
Doesn't sound very organic to me!
Please, others "in the know" tell us if this is true??????
(don't mean to not believe you Mike, but it does sound rather odd, dipping maters in chlorine)

Is there not chlorine in tap water? Not to mention fluoride? OMG impurities! Won't someone think of one's precious bodily fluids?

Surely the chlorine talk is a joke, right. You people drink chlorine treated water from the tap. How about that expense stuff in the bottle before they use the osmosis treatment on it. But I do think that commercial growers use sulfate baths on vegetables.

Curt

The information below is from the OMRI's website. OMRI makes the rules for what can and cannot be used in organic production.

Bleach
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Processing Sanitizers and Cleaners
Origin: Synthetic Nonagricultural
Description: May only be used as a disinfectant and sanitizer for food contact surfaces. Residual chlorine levels in water shall not exceed the Maximum Residual Disinfectant Limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, currently 4 mg/L (4 ppm) expressed as chlorine. See also CHLORINE MATERIALS.
NOP Rule: 205.605(b)

Wordwiz, I know you will do better than I did last season. Here was my venture, about 300 tomato plants, several heirloom varieties, 1st off the supports I used weren't strong enough & plants sprawled. Next as tomato ripened some critter bit a hole in each tom, had to apply seven,then the ripe ones developed a rotten spot. Heirlooms a joke as far as producing. My land also needs help. Lastly the heat shut them down & I 'tractored' them in Aug. & planted a very good productive fall/winter garden. Proved to me distinction between 'gardener' & 'farmer' Subsequently learned some methods from an 'old time' truck farmer. He began way later than I, had bumper crop & still has loads. Try his way/varieties in '11 Doing the work in the summer heat here is the worst aspect. You have inspired me though.

I tried Early Goliath this year and I was not impressed. I think I will go back to Early Girl for my hybrid in a sea of heirlooms. Let me mention that there are guys able to produce tomatoes in early June in MI, they do it with hoop houses, possibly double layered, hot composting in place (bury a lot of hot manure between rows), and clear mulch. Row covers are inferior in that respect. That is the type of competition nowadays.

kabuti,

I had a horrible year this season but thankfully only had about 120 plants. Similar problems to you, except no rotten spots. Beat-down rains in the spring, a summer-ling drought that is still happening, a woodchuck that got fat eating my maters, high heat that caused blossom drop and kept the fruit from ripening - the entire gamut.

Glib,

How was your season? As stated, now of my plants produced but I don't think it would have made any difference had I planted other varieties.

For those who think chlorine is bad - did you ever go swimming in a pool?

Mike

wordwiz some of these guys won't be happy unless you agree to wash your vegetables in distilled water.

Nearly every American washes their vegetables in the kitchen sink. OH NO CHLORINE!!!

Subsequently learned some methods from an 'old time' truck farmer. He began way later than I, had bumper crop & still has loads. Try his way/varieties in '11

Kabuti, please tell us those methods and varieties?

Kabuti-

I have a lot of experience with rodents, and i'd say it was voles (like mice, but bigger). Get a bunch of good kill traps and go nuts. I'd also think about poisons. They love tomatoes. Of course keeping them off the ground is very important (voles won't climb). My biggest rodent problem is the vole. This year i killed lots and removed a couple nests.

Yes I've been swimming in a chlorinated pool, and I don't like it but I understand the reason for it.

I would not wash my tomatoes in a cholinated pool and then eat them. I don't think it's safe, but I eat strictly organic.

As I posted above, organic standards would not allow washing in chlorine, unless it's in water that is within the drinking water standards.

For people like me that want to eat only strictly organic, it would be deceptive of you to claim that the tomatoes are organic when washed with chlorine that exceeds the drinking water standards.

Good luck with your venture. It's damn hard work. Been there done that.

It is standard practice, the chlorine, for OG growers and regular growers. Could use vinegar and it would do as well.

I share-crop at a farm that does a lot of toms, probably 5k plants under glass and about the same outdoor. I believe one well-trained guy works on them full time during the season, plus he gets help sometimes. I know the biggest problem by far is the diseases.

starwood,

Methinks this "chlorine phobia" is a much-a-do about nothing distraction. I've been swimming in public and private pools for 45 years. Some with moderate levels of chlorine, a few in pools where my eyes burned. Never can I remember spending a significant amount of time in the pool and not swallowing some water. Plus I have been drinking tap water for more than 55 years and have never been sick from it.

I'm not planning on "shocking" the water in the way one does when algae invades a pool, where the ppm rockets to 10-12 for a while, only making sure I kill nasties on maters.

Mike

O.K.SHHHHHH! Dont let it get around I outed "Grannies" 'old-tyme-truk' farm method of guaranteed successful 'mato growin! Since we're in the central valley here in CA this may not be usefull info fer the KGB members there in Marin/Siberia, so dont hold my feet to the fire if it dont pan out the same in yer neck-a the woods! Sallied on over 2day & picked over 10gal big green tom. Someone had took buckets of riper ones yesterday! Plants were loaded! No disease or anything. Producing like this all summer/fall. Grannies' a-pullin em out 2moro because 'tired' of them! 70+plants. (1/2ton UN-composted HORSE poop disc'd in. Planted about 2ft apart, plants not big, about 3ftTall small cages w shortstakes/trellis. 'ShadyLady' from transplants in spring. 'Bobcat' transplants in June. Fert twice w triple-15. O.K. Flood irg8 often). Every year. Woohoo! I knowd that horse poop was the best! Aint brain surgery! Gotta date with Granny too, hehe. Dont knock it till ye try it! Maybe we can share more 'uncommon' lernin!

WW, my season was good. I am in MI. It was a good year for anything warm season.

We used to go to the race-track in pompano fl to get horse manure. First we had to hack through the jungle of cherry toms completely covering the manure piles. So yeah, tomatoes like manure, and cherry toms will grow in anything including south florida summer.

My concern would be the staking method. I tried the Florida Weave method for the first time last year. I used it on half of my tomatoes (stake every 4 plants) and used traditional cages on the other half.

The tomatoes on the FW system were harder to harvest, and I spent a lot of time digging around for the ripe toms.

Maybe your modified FW system will work better???

Good luck!

Enough of the aside talk. Mike I wonder why only tomatoes? I know you like them, but is it not all your eggs in one basket. All the market gardeners around here have a good variety. Perhaps you are only talking about one year? How are you going to rotate to keep soil fresh? Jay is very active in bringing new plants into his area and it seems to be working. Have you put some thought into that? Is there a nitch market such as oriental that would love local grown fresh produce that you could supply? I hope this adds just a little spark for you.

Curt

Thanks Curt,

I try to get people to branch out and try new vegetables. I would agree with you, Mike why only tomatoes? If you need to cover the whole 1/3 of an acre, I would diversify my growing. I would put in, half tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, maybe potatoes, peppers, winter squash?

For me selling at Farmers Markets in my "More Rural" area, I need to diversify my plantings. I could grow 1/2 acre of tomatoes, but I know I will never be able to sell them all. So I plant smaller plantings of many crops to make my booth have a diversity and the "One stop Shopping" that many people like. I would say Tomatoes, Cherry tomatoes, peppers, potatoes, onions, zucchini, pickling cucumbers, green beans are my main crops. However, I am starting to get more into cauliflower, broccoli, radishes, turnips, carrots, okra, and now in the winter, greens.

In these smaller crops, I charge a higher price and I am getting it because of the "One stop Shoppers". I am expanding my Okra, cauliflower and carrots for next year. Why, I can grow them, harvest them and provide a higher quality product than others (and it shows!) also, I am growing the market and I am barely keeping up with demand. I sold out of Cheddar cauliflower with in 15-30 minutes each week.

Just an idea.

Jay

Jay & Curt,

I can do, at most, two FMs per week, that is, if I keep my day job! But I am planning on more than tomatoes, at least on a smaller schedule. Bell, banana and jalapeno peppers are one thing that should work great and produce over a long period of time. Another one is lettuce, at least in the spring and very early summer and perhaps again in early fall. The first crop I'll plant between the tomatoes. It will be ready to harvest by late April, maybe earlier and be done by the 4th of July, again maybe earlier. I'm also looking at onions - large ones. The problem with onions and lettuce though is they are a one-time harvest, whereas the toms will produce all year long.

Another thing I probably didn't mention is that I have 900 sq. ft. of ground in my backyard. I'll save some of the room for a couple of tomato plants, some carrots and cucumbers but I would like to have maybe 200 broccoli plants and 100 KY Wonder Pole beans. The latter did fantastic for me this year until the drought/heat set in. I was getting close to a quart per day off 10 plants.

I'll also have some basil and maybe some other herbs, though probably not much. Potatoes and corn are not high value crops - a supermarket here has been known to sell 50 pounds of potatoes for $10.

If things go decent and I can see a future in this (economies of scale) as well as find more acreage, then in 2012 I might indeed give up my day job!

Mike

Notice I typed 2013, not 2011! One thing I need to consider is horseradish. If I plant it in the spring (not enough time this fall/winter) I could have 500 feet of roots growing next year. The following year, harvest half of them, replanting some. Ditto for the second year.

Not sure the FM value of horseradish roots but for those who would like to make their own sauce, I would think it would be a decent price. Plus, I could sell peppers and herbs to go with it. I cannot sell processed foods in OH unless I get a certified kitchen license but I sell dry spice blends.

You guys are giving me lots of things to chew on. I cannot thank you enough!

Mike

JR-

What is your take on Cheddar Cauliflower? I've read it doesn't handle heat well. Do you grow in spring or fall? How was yield? I've though about trying both that and a purple variety. U need a blog you can update daily with reviews, pics on current growings, pics from the farmers markets, and lots of other stuff!!!! ;)

Franktank:

I do have a blog, check it out I added it to the bottom. I hope you find the information useful.

Mike, Don't underestimate the ability of single harvest items to make money. If you start pushing the pencil, you will see that root crops can make alot of money. That is if you manage them correctly. You need to make succession planting. Instead of harvesting one crop all season, you can harvest 3, 4, 5 crops in one year off the same piece of ground. I also find that some veggies, even tomatoes, lose their appeal eventually.

You are growing outside, so it will be different. In my high tunnels I am laying out plans for next year. Here are some plans for one bed in one building. Plant carrots in February, harvest by the end of May, transplant Parthenocopic zucchini, harvest until the end of July, tear out and replant with green beans, Harvest until early October, replant with Haikuri turnips, radishes or transplant lettuce or spinach. Carefully managed, it can work.

Frank: I found the Cheddar did ok in the heat this spring. It didn't get very big, but it sold great. I have purple growing now. It isn't forming a head very well. I don't know what is wrong.

Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Jay's Jellies, Produce and More

I finally got to talk with the guy who runs the produce store. Of course, it depends on the quality of my tomatoes, but he said he can use about 1500 pounds per week. He can also use just about any other veggie I can grow. We did not discuss prices but this summer, the cheapest his maters were priced was $1.29; most of the time it was $1.49. But, he drives and picks them up. I'm figuring about 50-60â per pound, maybe another dime for very early ones.

If he needs 1500 pounds, and I plan on another 500 pounds for FM, restaurant and deli sales, I may only need 2000 plants. That would mean needing only a pound per plant of marketable tomatoes per week. That would leave me with 3,000 sf for other plants.

He likes peppers, lettuce, green beans, melons, cukes, broccoli and onions.

Alas, Jay, I probably cannot sow much of anything before the Ides of March, at least outside. But I can start seedlings for just about everything except onion sets. But I am taking your suggestion of growing 2-3 crops in the same ground per year, for instance, lettuce, green beans and lettuce. I would have to dig out a spreadsheet and check Days to Maturity, but I can see how 250 feet of space would provide 500 heads of lettuce and 125 bushels of green beans.

I'm pumped!

Mike

JR-

Is it Graffiti? I have 4 Cauliflower plants and NONE have headed up. They are doomed. Showing single digits up here in the next 10 days.

I'll check out your blog. I'm sure you told me about it in the past.

I ordered my seeds.

hi mike...well you certianly are on the right track to start planning now,,,,here on the coast the word blight springs to mind but seems you have not experienced any problems with it..no insects to bother your crop?...not sure that only tilling the 18 inches that you plan to grow the plants will work out for you,,,the sod will be a pain....cardboard mulched with some organic matter might help retain moisture and supress weeds,,,i reaally have to smile when i see you are projecting the amount of labour required,,,,planting early seldom produces the early results you expect...soil temp is very important for tomatoes,,,,i assume you plan to grow your own seedlings? have you got that part down ? well lots of advice to been had on here, best of luck, ....we grew a bit over 3000 pounds this year...in 4, 40X 16 unheated plastic houses, drip tape, mulch, raised beds, no spraying,or any washing fruit, kept one guy busy full time, trellising, pruning, picking, but what a great product.

Frank:

Yes it is Graffiti. I wonder about the seed. It was on back order for weeks/months and then I finally got it. Too late, but I planted anyways. It has been sold out, so I wonder if it was lower quality?

Farmer Guy, was that 3,000 lbs out of each tunnel or total?
Just curious. Any pictures?

Jay

Farmguy,

The hours of labor were based on OSU's figures. They have a good Extension Service. I've seen from UT that are similar. Most are in the 800-900 hrs/acre range. I have about 1/3 of an acre.

This past summer, for some reason whiteflies were a major problem. Not sure why but the entire neighborhood was heavily infested. Thankfully, this new plot is about 1.25 miles away and has not been growing anything but grass for the last eight years or more.

I've checked the soil temp data from this year. 2-3" deep it was 71/67 degrees respectively at 6 pm on April 21.

Yeah, I have got the seed-starting thing down! For the last couple of years I've started hundreds of plants. Been experimenting with something other than 18- or 36-cell nursery trays. I really like the Bio-dome inserts and Speedling trays, but I'm looking at something that is less expensive. I started some lettuce, celery and a couple types of tomatoes in them last Wednesday evening. Most have germinated even though I did not use a heat mat.

Mike

Mike,

To get the biggest bang for your buck, I would start my tomatoes in 50's or 72's and plant them out directly out of those. I find that smaller plants, do just as well. They also take up less space in seed starting area. I usually transplant lettuce out of 72's. I could go even smaller, but for my management needs, I need more soil volume for moisture. I can't easily water every day.

Jay

Using Oasis Wedge cubes, I can 102 seeds in the same space as a 1020 nursery tray. The Speedling trays are a bit larger, but they hold 200 plants. I figure if I use them, I can get 3200 plants in one row (16') in my GH. Watering them should be a blast - I have a patio mister I can use.

Mike

have you read this book?

Backyard Market Gardening

Here is a link that might be useful: Backyard Market Gardening

dawgie,

Can't say I have. But... in my defense... I was a farmer for 20 years. Sowed seeds, transplanted seedlings, took care of the plants while they were growing. Granted, back in those days we didn't use Blood Meal, Calcium Nitrate, Florida Weaves or care about Growing Degree Days or Daily Light Integrals. We stuck plants in the ground when it was safe to do so, kept the weeds out and added some ferts in the middle of the season. Then harvested bushels of fruit.

I don not plan on re-inventing the wheel or tire, just making them work for my pavement!

Mike

Jay, when you start your tomatoes in 72's, how long do you wait to transplant them outdoors?

Usually about 6 weeks after they come up. I usually start them around the 10-14 of February and aim to transplant out around the 25th to 28th of March into my high tunnel.

Mike,

I have tried more per tray 96 and they didn't work very well for me. They competed too much for light, especially in my basement grow shelves. I suppose in a heated greenhouse, they would do better.

Jay

Jay-

When should I seed fall cauliflower/broccoli? Late July? Whatever i did this year, i totally screwed up. I have huge plants with no heads. Its suppose to go below 0F next week. I really need to get this timing stuff down.

Jay,

I want to see how a Speedling tray full of seeds (200 plants) looks six-eight weeks after they germinate. I also have a 102-cell grow tray that uses something akin to a water-absorbing Styrofoam. Thankfully, I have hundreds of extra seeds courtesy of free gifts that came with seeds I ordered, so it's not going to be a huge investment. Besides, I would rather spend $12 now to find out something doesn't work than spending $200 in the spring and ending up with no plants.

BTW, unless the temps are predicted to get below 40 in the GH, I will not heat it. I like cool temps for seedlings. And I try to stress them just a bit in the watering arena. Makes the roots stronger and probably the water distribution system of the plant also. Not that I meant to, but I've watered tom seedlings that were laying on their sides from lack of water and the next day they were standing erect and at attention!

Mike

It tis said that every black cloud has its silver lining. My wife was diagnosed with diabetes a few months ago and this is the first time I have been faced with trying to prepare a "diabetic-friendly" meal on the day known for eating.

I used my position as a newspaper publisher to get a very personal response to how to prepare such a meal. One suggestion was to use Sweet Potatoes instead of white ones.

My son is a chef and he was telling me how SPs have more sugar than any other potato. Yet, I knew they were recommended. Google gave me some great info - while they are high in sugar, their glycemic index is extremely low and they are rated at the very top of veggies diabetics can eat. So I will obviously have a bunch of space in my backyard garden for them next year.

But in my search, I also learned that Swiss Chard is also very good. One search lead to another and it turns out SC is about the easiest veggie on earth to grow but also very valuable. One web site is selling organic SC for $22 for three pounds. Each plant is suppose to average about three pounds of produce over a season. If I dedicate a row to it (250 plants) that would be 750 pounds of produce. I'm not likely to sell it for $7/pound but still, it should be a money maker!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Mike

I was wanting to get them planted out by the first of August, however, due to almost two weeks of 100 plus days, they didn't get out until August 8th. They were started about 6-7 weeks prior to that. I think I started them around July 1. If I were you, I would aim for planting out around the 15-20th of July.

This year was warm, dry and sunny all fall. I just finished picking the rest of the broccoli and cauliflower before we left for thanksgiving with family. This was planted outside, no protection and did great. Last night it got down to 14 degrees with a stiff north wind. I am guessing it may have killed it, but I am not home to see. I have a very small planting of broccoli in one of my high tunnels I am going to see how it fairs.

Next year, I am planning on planting broccoli and cauliflower out earlier for the last 1-1.5 months of Farmers Market season and then have alittle later planting for my online market. I was thinking about planting it out again around July 15th and another planting, maybe inside around August 15th. Who knows!

Jay

You might like this book. "Heirloom: Notes from an Accidental Tomato Farmer" I got it from the library and its an interesting read Might be spot on for what you're trying to do. Good luck with your venture.

~Cindy

Cindy,

You from the Queen City? I'm from Hartwell and have a business in Reading.

Mike

In order to get the most income from your small space, I have experienced that along with tomatoes, herbs and greens will get you the most income. Herbs like thyme, chives, sage, rosemary, parsley, basil, tarragon can be set out as plants and can be continually harvested all season. Sounds like your 1300sf area would be perfect for that. Cilantro and dill also are nice to market along with tomatoes, but require succession planting. You mentioned swiss chard which is a profitable green as well as kale. These both can be continuously harvested from the same planting. I would forget about broccoli and cauliflower because they take up a lot of space and don't have a good return. You may want to try carrots instead which have a much higher return.
Good luck,
Nicole