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ROSSEYANKA Persimmon

strudeldog_gw
September 6, 2010

Does the Hybrid Rosseyanka need pollination to produce fruit, and if it does would itÂs pollination needs be best served by American persimmon Diospyros Virginiana or Asian Kaki persimmon. NikitaÂs Gift is reportedly an offspring of Rosseyanka crossed back to Kaki, so I guess that states a Kaki would at least be a possibility, but that cross of Virginiana X Kaki doesnÂt seem to have been duplicated very easily beyond the Russian/Ukraine efforts that produced Rosseyanka and NikitaÂs Gift. Is anyone aware of what they did for the successful cross where other efforts did not succeed, or are there actually more Hybrids than I am aware. I have seen others discussed as hybrids, but never with the certainty that these 2 seem accepted. Thanks for input and thoughts.

Comments (35)

  • creekweb

    The hybrid Rosseyanka, like many varieties of both American and Asian persimmons will fruit without pollination - and in the case of Rosseyanka, prolifically.

    The Russian success in hybridizing the two species was not simple or quick in reaching fruition. They attributed their eventual success to their practice of pollinating an Asian grafted on American rootstock with the pollen from an American grafted on Asian rootstock. There were a number of successful crosses achieved in this way, but apparently the Russians were most pleased with the variety they later named Rosseyanka, and this is the only virginiana X kaki of that series that is currently available in the U.S.

  • lucky_p

    Have had Rosseyanka growing here since '98 or '99, has been fruiting for several years. Plenty of native male persimmons in the surrounding woods/fields, though I'm not certain what chromosome number I've got here - probably 60-c; only 'male' kaki I have is Hokkaido, and I'm not certain that it's ever bloomed.
    Rosseyanka sets a full crop every year, regardless; Occasional fruits will have a single seed; well over 90% will be fully seedless.

  • strudeldog_gw

    Thanks CreekWeb & Lucky
    ThatÂs good information So it appears Rosseyanka leans more towards Kaki in the characteristic to parthenocarpically set fruit. I prefer the Kaki , both astringent and non-astringent to Virginiana and have no Male Virginiana in my plantings. Interesting on the approach they took with (Kaki on Virginiana) and (Virginiana on Kaki) for the parents. I guess I will have to re-think what role a rootstock would play in pollination, as I donÂt understand that. I was not planning on trying the cross myself, Just trying bringing in as cold tolerant types available as late spring freezes are a primary concern.

  • creekweb

    I would caution that cold-hardiness and tolerance to late spring freezes are two distinct qualities not necessarily shared by persimmons noted to be "cold-hardy." The most notable example of this disparity would be Rosseyanka, which while considered cold-hardy because of its ability to withstand winter lows is the most sensitive to late spring freezes of any persimmon I've observed, American or Asian. My dozen or so trees were all damaged by a late freeze this year of no lower than 30 degrees, and the total crop was lost; none of my other persimmons lost fruit from this freeze. Another persimmon known to be very cold-hardy but intolerant to late spring freezes is the Asian Hira Tanenashi, though this one didn't show damage from this year's freeze.

  • strudeldog_gw

    Creekweb,
    So is Rosseyanka early to leaf out in the spring? In my location I am more concerned with late freezes following an extended warm period as much of this area had on Easter weekend 2007. I did not have persimmon planted then, but the couple I knew about in the area I think were completely killed back. I think they were both Fuyu. I am expecting to lose fruit on late freezes on some springs on persimmon as well as other type plants, but I am more concerned with extensive damage to the tree itself. I was going to try can focus on later vegetating cultivars to avoid the damage to both tree and fruit. I believe Jiro and the Jiro bud sports are suppose to leaf a bit later than most non-astringent cultivars. The topic of cold hardiness of Kaki persimmons has been discussed on multiple threads here, but has anyone made notice if these cultivars noted for cold hardiness are later leafing out. I have not really noticed any of my current cultivars differing when they break bud, but plan to pay more attention next year.

  • creekweb

    My Rosseyanka persimmons did not leaf out any earlier than a number of other varieties, and the disproportionate degree of frost damage they sustained this year appears to be related to a higher sensitivity to frost of this hybrid compared to Asian and American persimmons. I have not heard reports of this phenomenon from others, so this observation is merely anecdotal and no conclusions should be drawn; but still, I would hesitate planting much of this variety in a climate regularly subject to late frosts.

    Because of the unusually early spring this year and the increased dangers of frost damage seen with this weather pattern, I paid particularly close attention to the leafing out of the persimmons, as these trees in general are very sensitive to late frosts. There was very little difference in the timing of bud swelling and leaf emergence among the different varieties of Asian (including Ichi Ki Kei Jiro and Maekawa Jiro) and American persimmons with the exception of American persimmons of the Morris Burton lineage which were considerably later than any of the others. These were grafted persimmon trees and this tardiness was evident on trees on both (what I believe to be) tetraploid and hexaploid rootstocks. Again, this is single observation anecdotal evidence of uncertain value, but if I were to plant a persimmon orchard in an area subject to frequent late frosts, and I were doing the grafting myself, I would use rootstocks from the Morris Burton line (or another known to be late in breaking bud.)

  • lucky_p

    Here, Rosseyanka and the D.virginiana selections all break dormancy before the D.kakis. The Easter Big Freeze Disaster of 2007 caught them with 4-6 inches of tender new growth - and burned it back; the kakis were all still tightly dormant. Go figure. That freeze killed all my heartnuts and Persian/Carpathian walnuts back to their black walnut rootstock, and killed outright several 10yr-old seedling butternuts and heartnuts. It was (hopefully) a freak occurrence.
    Rosseyanka fruit is more reminiscent of the kaki parent - relatively thick 'skin' which holds the pulp well, even when fully ripe; hold well on the tree - you either have to snip them loose or pull them free from the calyx.

  • strudeldog_gw

    Thank you both,
    I think I will try and include Rosseyanka in my plantings this coming year as I believe it is available from one of the places I will be obtaining trees. I donÂt have any growing experience with D. Virginiana. I have eaten a lot of fruit off wild trees, but not any of the selected/improved cultivars and this hybrid sounds like it has some desirable traits, and not requiring a pollinator was the deciding factor for me. I am really finding Kaki to be my favorite fruit to grow and plan on expanding my cultivars from 7 to about double that this year. Relatively easy care, Precocious bearing of wonderful fruit, and beautiful trees. Ornamentally the young trees are impressive, hoping they retain that as they mature. Basically going into 3rd year of orchard establishment they have all passing grades for me, and I have yet to find any shortcomings. Interesting that you would bring up Heartnut as they were one of the few plants I had established in 2007, as part of a "Nut Grove Package" from "Bear Creek Nursery" back in 1998? All non-grafted seedlings of Butternuts, Heartnut, Black Walnut, Northern Pecans, Chestnuts. After that 2007 Freeze was the only time since the Chestnuts started producing that they did not produce. Still waiting on the others to produce their 1st nut. The Butternuts/Heartnut were covered with the long Male catkins this spring but no nuts developed. I didnÂt keep real good records back then, and I really not sure which are Heartnut and which are Butternuts as they look so similar. Thanks again for input.

  • sunghui

    strudeldog, you might want to try some Rosseyanka fruit before you plant one if you can find it. I culled my Rosseyanka because I didn't like the fruit. But that's just me.

  • harbin_gw

    A slight correction to what was already written above:
    Rosseyanka originated in 1959 by Pasenkov at the Nikitsky Botanical Garden. He crossed a seedling no.213 of American Persimmon (female) with pollen of Asian Persimmon forms 48 and 145. A hybrid no. 18 has been grown up in vitro (laboratory conditions)and fruited in 1964 for the first time.
    It was named "Rosijanka". That's the story.

  • creekweb

    Although just about every source I've come across describes Rosseyanka as D.v. x D.k. the most reliable source I could find IMO does describe it as D.k. x D.v. and I am now pretty much convinced that D.virginiana is the seed parent. Thanks for that correction Harbin.

  • Carlapcastelli_comcast_net

    Could anyone kindly refer me to a good nursery/web site where to purchase a two- three years old Rosseyanka persimmon?
    I grew up in Italy, and persimmon trees grew up with me. I think the Rosseyanka p. might be the most suitable to my 6-7 zone here, still maintaining some of the taste so distinctive of the Japanese varieties I remember liking so much. I know, it' gourmet nostalgia!
    Thanks in advance.

  • olga_6b

    Carla, if you are in 6b/7a zone. You can grow many real kaki persimmons, not necessary need Rossiyanka. I am in 6b zone and have 7 different varieties right now. My sister has even more. Jiro, Hana, Ichi, Izu and many others grow and fruit well for me here. Edible Landscaping is where most of my came from. All were nice trees and you can choose tree size.
    Olga

  • ejp3

    Is rosseyanka astringent or non? I picked one up and plan to graft a few different cultivars onto it. I got mine from treesofjoy. if its astringent what would be a good non astringent for zone 7 to graft to it? Thanks

  • creekweb

    Over time, I've really come to appreciate this hybrid as an alternative to kakis in zone 6. The fruit is reminiscent of the kaki variety Honan Red in both flavor and texture but in a cold-hardier tree. I've had no dieback of this variety in my zone 6 orchard where temps were as low as -11 or -12F while my kakis have had so much damage that they are not fruiting this year. The landscape value of this tree surpasses any of the virginianas IMO with denser weeping foliage and bright orange fruit that stays on the tree well into December or even January, while virginiana fruit is often discolored and unattractive. I would describe the texture as creamy, which I had first thought of as a negative just because it's different from kakis and virginianas, but have since appreciated, as it goes along well with the rich and sweet flavor of the fruit. Now missing is the characteristic American persimmon flavor, as this one tastes more like the kakis. Here it is similar to the virginiana U20-A but better in almost all respects. The one downside I'd seen is that the tree is not precocious as some kakis and virginiana can be, but maybe that has more to do with the environment that with the variety.

  • Tony

    I agreed with Creekweb. My 5 years old Rossyanka survived the low temperature of -18F 4 years ago. A very nice landscape specimen tree.

    Tony

  • Greg

    How slow does this one typically grow? I have one in my front yard that made it through it's second summer and it has barely grown at all. It survived -11 last year in the same spot that a Saijo bit the dust the previous winter. I wonder if I should replace it.

  • creekweb

    It should grow at a rate typical for virginiana, maybe 2 feet per year. When persimmons are first transplanted they often don't show much top growth that first year, but the second year should show some growth. So, if your tree is not growing it could be that the root system is not adequate. I would give it one more year and push with nitrogen fertilizer in April and May and make sure to water during any dry spells. If still no growth, then yes, it would be time to cut your losses and replace.

  • creekweb

    One of the challenges of growing Rosseyanka has been harvesting the fruit from larger trees. Optimally, the tree should be kept to a height where the fruit can be easily hand picked from the ground or a step ladder. But sometimes and in some spaces keeping a larger tree is advantageous but poses the problem of harvesting where hand picking is impossible. What I've found is that early harvesting of fruit that has colored up but remains firm can be fairly efficiently achieved using an extendable fruit picker. The fruit is simultaneously pulled and twisted with the tool, and when it gives it prunes off a small amount of the wood with it. These will ripen off tree.

  • Greg

    I have been thinking about making an update to this thread. I finally figured out what was going on with the persimmon I mentioned in my previous post. I am glad I kept it in the ground, it grew a decent amount this last summer. Also it appears that the trunk has been girdled for some reason, and I think this has been the problem. It doesn't seem like sun scald because the pattern doesn't match other trees that I have had with this problem. I will leave it in the ground and hopefully the dead tissue will just be a scare in a few years. It is still just a little over an inch in diameter. Also I am using this tree for an ornamental destined to take up about half of the space in my front yard so I do intend to let it grow to a large size.

  • ichoudhury

    I see this thread was started 7 years ago and curious what are some of the thoughts on Rosseyanka Persimmon. Love to hear your experience/stories as I just recently purchased a Rosseyanka and a Nikita's Gift from Justfruits and Exotics, to add to my growing collection (mostly of Japanese Persimmon varieties.

  • creekweb

    I remain a big fan of Rosseyanka and would recommend it for zones 6 and 7. I have had no cold hardiness issues at -12F. The tree can make a nice landscape specimen on account of its foliage density, somewhat weeping habit and tenacity of the ripened fruit in remaining on the tree,( though I have some that have had deformation of the leaves perhaps from some degree of rootstock incompatibility.) It fruits prolifically, and the fruit is larger and more easily handled than that of most virginiana, and can be eaten fresh or dehydrated,

  • Bob

    My Rosseyanka is about 13 years old, looks a little raggety but still produces.

    It makes great cookies and jams but wyfee does not uses them anymore. Give away all. Has strong taste much like natives but no seeds.

  • ichoudhury

    My Rosseyanka and Nikita's Gift arrived today. Of course they are in their dormancy, so couple of sticks on pots ... LOL ...

    I am going to plant them next to each other as soon as the weather go above freezing (our lowest temp showing as 27 degree F here in Georgia this week) next week. I usually prepare ahead by prepping the whole, filled with organic matters etc, but I could't due to cool temp and busy work schedules. Anyway, I'm here in Georgia *zone 7b, and was entertaining if I should keep them in their pot close to a glass door where they get moderate light until threat of Frost over or just go ahead and plant them next week when temp go in their 40s (when lowest). Any thoughts? I am leaning more toward planting, but like to hear feedback.


    Bob, can you explain the 'strong taste' similar to the native? You don't like the taste? Wyfee prefers Asian Persimmon for cookies and Jams? I'm sure she's still making them ;-) ..


    Creekweb, even when eaten fresh they have to be ubber ripe, right? Theya re Astringent varieties as far as I know (Both for my situation, Rosseyanka and Nikita's Gift).

  • creekweb

    My experience has been that Rosseyanka lacks the typical virginiana flavor and is rather mild tasting, though it's a bit of a stretch to say that it tastes like a kaki. It can be very sweet. The consistency is pasty which gives it a dessert quality somewhat like a pudding. I try to pick them before a severe frost hits(less than 27F or so) as they are much more easily managed firm. But yes they do need to be fully ripened or dehydrated before eating. The colored up firm fruit ripens in a week or so in a plastic bag with a small amount of ethanol and a ripening apple supplying ethylene gas.

  • Bob

    Well, when you taste wild grown native persimmons and then eat a Rossianka you could not tell the difference, as a matter of facts i have a few wild persimmon that taste better, more fluids and sweeter. Most i really don't care for. I just eat a fully tree ripe K.B.S, and it is way better.

  • creekweb

    Bob, that's a very different take on Rosseyanka from what I and a number of others have experienced. Now, of course tastes differ from person to person, and trees perform differently at different locations, but to say that Rosseyanka fruit is indistingushable from wild virginiana strikes me as a red flag regarding the authenticity of your cultivar. This is relatively easy to check since the Rosseyanka fruit appearance is unique, and your fruit can be compared to images online. I've been burnt time after time by mislabeled scionwood or trees and have been very skeptical of the identity of trees until they prove they are what their labels say they are.

    Yes, Kyung sun Bansi is an incredible fruit, but for much of zone 6 Rosseyanka will be far more reliable.


  • Bob

    Most native persimmons growing wild are not worth picking but some are very good, aamof only a couple that grows on my property as i mention are very good. I pick them all the time. My rossianka came from ogw a long time ago and i have never had any problems with them. I see not much difference other then that they are a little bigger but more pulpy. Creekweb,since Houz took over i went under the name of Persimmonbob and as you know we are going back way back, they do not want me to use that name so i had to change.

    I am a little more picky now and i spent most of my time with Oriental/Spanish varieties.

  • cousinfloyd

    My limited experience with Rosseyanka is that it's very different from native American persimmons. Rosseyanka begins to ripen its fruit about a month (if not more) after the last of the native American persimmons here have finished ripening their fruit, so there's a huge difference in seasons. All the Rosseyanka fruits I've eaten have also been seedless. And the flavor and texture I've thought were very different, very different both from American and kaki. I got to sample Rosseyanka, Saijo, Tecumseh, soft-ripe Maekawa Jiro, and possibly one other kaki cultivar once in December. I liked all of them a lot, but when forced to pick a favorite -- I was able to take just one of the samples home to let me family have a taste, too -- I chose Rosseyanka.

  • cousinfloyd

    Creekweb, when you note that Rosseyanka is especially susceptible to freeze damage after breaking dormancy, is your experience that the crop is just more likely to be lost to spring freezes, or have you also had more long-term damage with losses to more than just the new growth and that year's crop?

  • creekweb

    Sorry, clousinfloyd, didn't see that question earlier. As my experience with this variety has increased over the years, I will contradict my post from a number of years ago that claimed that Rosseyanka was especially susceptible to freezes. I have not had any notable damage from deep winter freezes or late spring freezes in zone 6A on Rosseyanka.


    This year I thought it was pretty cool that I was still harvesting Rosseyanka well into February, having a soft kaki-like consistency when I pick them. I have no other fruit that can be harvested anytime near this. Some years, when the weather stays mild in early winter I can harvest Granny Smith apples in January, but that isn't often. Some American persimmons do stay on the trees deep into winter, but at that point they are not at all desirable. Rosseyanka on the other hand remained well colored and attractive through much of January and when the temps hit 0F they turned dark and soft but were still edible. Now they are finally degrading and plopping off the tree.

  • Daniel Erdy

    Rosseyanka leafs out late like the Americans. Past our late frosts in SC, I've lost so many kakis because of late frost it's not funny . People don't believe me when I say a late frost will kill a kaki down to the graft on 4 year old trees but it happens in the Carolinas. Rosseyanka will not disappoint you. I'm trailing a few other hybrids including some seedlings from Cliff's seeds hopefully they leaf out late also.

    I've noticed that Fuyu preforms fairly well in the Carolinas? Mine leaf out about the same time as other kaki and still give us fruit with little dieback. It don't always give us a bumper crop but I've been impressed with it over the past few years. Hanagosho Is another good kaki that give us fruit even after getting hit by frost "some years" it isn't prone to die back in my experience. I'm not sure about the true hardiness of either one but they have survived 4F here as has all my other kakis, it's the early leafing out followed by a hard frost that kills them in zone 7b.

  • yovan mcgregor

    Daniel Erdy

    If it happens in Zone 7b then better I don't try anything in my Zone 5b?


  • Daniel Erdy


    yovan mcgregor

    5b is safe for some newer hybrids that have been back crossed to virginiana. I would not try any kakis in ground in 5b.

  • cousinfloyd

    Yovan, I would point out, too, that the problems Daniel was describing having had nothing to do with mid-winter extremes. Mid-winter extreme low temperatures would definitely be a concern in colder zones, especially with kaki persimmons, but in relatively colder zones there might even be less potential for the problems in the spring that Daniel described. I'm not far from Daniel, also officially 7b (although maybe a colder 7a microclimate), and I haven't really had any of the issues Daniel described, at least not yet. My first kaki persimmons started fruiting 3 or 4 years ago, and I've added several more every year (trying to avoid less cold hardy cultivars), and apart from a few random problems all the kaki (and virginiana and hybrid) cultivars I've grown have done very well.

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