Many Rubus species will grow in Wisconsin. You could find some wild ones and move them. Growing from seed is extremely difficult. Stratification and scarification with sulfuric acid would be needed to grow from seed.

Growing from seed is extremely difficult

Not unless this species is pretty unique!! Blackberries grow extremely easily from seed. They just need to be planted in fall so they can go through proper natural stratification. Even berries left on the soil surface can germinate and form new plants. Second year plants from seed will even bear fruit.

Try checking with any native plant nurseries (or your DNR) for starts if seeds are difficult to locate.

I'm going by university{{gwi:807}} methods of propagation. I breed Rubus plants. Looking to patent a few. It is very rare for fallen fruit to germinate. Fruit germinates after passing through the stomachs of birds. So I respectively disagree. Most small plants near a Rubus patch are suckers or tip rooted plants.
In extreme winters they tend to sucker, even if they never have before. Last winter produced a lot of suckers.
It is possible to grow the way you mention, but I would not recommend putting fruit out and hope it germinates.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 17:29

You are free to disagree all you like. Here, various species of Rubus grow naturally, as well as several invasive species. These include three different species of blackberries. Even after the land is cleared of all traces of the plants, including the roots, new plants spring up for several seasons, germinating from fallen berries. It happens.

From the US Forest Service:
Seed: Most blackberries produce good seed crops nearly every year [4]........
Germination: Blackberry seeds have a hard impermeable coat and dormant embryo [2,14]; consequently, germination is often slow. Most blackberries require, as a minimum, warm stratification at 68 to 86 degrees F (20 to 30 degrees C) for 90 days, followed by cold stratification at 36 to 41 degrees F (2 to 5 degrees C) for an additional 90 days [2]. These conditions are frequently encountered naturally, as seeds mature in summer and remain in the soil throughout the cold winter months

Scarification may help to speed up or improve germination but it is not a requirement.

I haven't found any at the native plant websites, nor the DNR one. Anyone know where I could legally dig a couple wild blackberry plants next spring in western Wisconsin? Thanks. Northwoodswis

Gardengal, try it this spring, then comment on it. Most people fail at germination. When they say germination is slow, they mean it takes about 2 years without scarification.
Look up the studies to increase germination as it is near zero without scarification and is documented in numerous studies like the study by RM Skirvin, MA Norton and AG Ottercaher from the University of IL (Hortscience 30(1):124-126 1995)
I tried for 3 years including what you are suggesting with zero luck. I finally talked to Pete Tallman the breeder of the Niwot black raspberry and he gave me instructions on germination. It worked well. In 6 years of growing brambles I have never seen a volunteer btw. I grow about 35 cultivars of blackberries, raspberries, and other Rubus plants. I can tell you never germinated brambles, else your response would be completely different.
I would suggest you read the book Raspberries and Blackberries: Their breeding, diseases, and growth by D.L. Jennings (The Scottish Research Institute). NAFEX library has a copy of the book.
I would take wild seeds and try northwoods. It is legal to take fruit. I will post a method using bleach at a later date. I use acid, and not sure how long to soak with bleach? I'm awaiting a response from Pete.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 1:40

I don't even know where to find any wild seeds. Ideas?
Northwoodswis

Well wild brambles are usualy around the forrest edge, maybe in state parks etc. Somebody must have these plants! I talked to Pete, glad I did! he is sending me some seed he crossed. He is too old to continue, giving up breeding after next season. But sharing an interesting cross he made! Use 1 cup water, 1 cup bleach, soak for 24 hours. Rinse and moisten seeds after that in paper towell and warm stratify with no light for 2 months, then put in fridge for another 2 months. Seeds will be ready at that time. He said blackberries take longer than any other bramble and are the hardest to germinate. 24 hours in bleach might not be enough.He said you need to experiment. Germination could take up to one year.
I suggest you ask gardengal to do it.
Here is a blackberry like bramble sold from seed, notice what they say about germination

Here is a link that might be useful: RUBUS LUDWIGII

Considering the above post I made, let's find you a plant. Although if you send me seeds, I can try to produce a plant for you.

It is illegal to remove plants from state parks. Seeds sound like a pain. If someone knows where there are a couple plants in a ditch somewhere, I would be delighted to know. I don't want the invasive Himalayan ones, but rather the native Wisconsin ones. Hopefully I will be able to tell the difference. Thanks for all of your suggestions and advice. Northwoodswis

Are you looking to go dig them now? I know i've picked wild ones in the past, but would be tough to locate them now. This was in Trempeleau Co.

Well I fell short of really helping, i will keep my eye open. I have a list of native Wisconsin Rubus plants, well saw one. i will post when i find it again! Wisconsinenis is only one, more exist! I did mean forage seeds from the state parks, not plants, just to be clear, and it might be illegal to remove them from ditches too. A huge Wisconsin Garden guy is
Larry Meiller, He has a show on public radio. I listen to the pod casts all the time. I bet he could help you, contact him!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Larry Meiller show

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 18:59

I noticed that the variety 'Rubus allegheniensis' is also native to Wisconsin and very wide spread. I can walk 5 minutes in any direction outside my house and find a patch here in Northern KY. I have eaten them ever since I was a kid but honestly, I would recommend a thornless cultivated variety (e.g. Triple Crown, Ouachita, Osage, etc) unless you are feeling nostalgic. Whether they would tolerate your winter is another question.

Triple Crown dies to the ground every year here in my yard. It survives by snow cover which sticks around here for months.

Franktank,
I would dig them next spring early.
JTBurton,
I have some Prime Ark Freedoms on order for spring, but their hardiness here is questionable. Most commercial varieties are for warmer climes and a longer growing season. We are on the edge of zones 3 and 4. I have never seen wild blackberries here, only raspberries, which tend to be puny. Our hillside garden and yard is overrun with them, but the thorns are soft and small, so I can pull the reds without gloves. The blacks are a little nastier and tastier.
But several persons on Gardenweb have mentioned picking wild blackberries in Northern Wisconsin, so I thought I would try some out on our land, where they hopefully could be contained. Northwoodswis

Here's the link to various blackberries native in Wisconsin,
http://www.gardenguides.com/112734-blackberries-grow-wisconsin.html

I don't need to try it, Drew. It happens naturally every year. Ripe fruit falls in summer.....new plants pop up the following spring. You may get higher germination rates with scarification but it is by no means a requirement.

The University of Washington has done propagation studies on our native blackberry, Rubus ursinus. The seeds were collected from ripe fruit, dried and refrigerated for 3 months. They were then surface sown, watered and germinated 14 days later with a 50% germination rate. No scarification and 14 days doesn't sound like a very long germination period to me.

This is by far not the most efficient means of propagation of any rubus species and I'd suggest the OP attempt to locate started plants. Or, with permission, take tip cuttings of existing plants in spring.

northwoodswis4,

Sounds like you would only grow the Prime Arks for their primocane crops due to your harsh winters. I may have mentioned this before, but I would figure out how many frost free days you have before you plant the Prime Arks. I have about 180 days which gives me about 45 to 60 days to harvest the berries before frost. That assumes the Freedoms are one the same fruiting schedule.

jtburton,
We have 4-5 months between killing frosts. Even the five months would only be about 150 days. Does that mean I should cancel my order?
The only source I have found for possible hardy blackberries is Wallace-Woodstock. They only sell Darrow for 2015. Anyone tried that one? Apparently they used to sell Stenulson and Balsors, but don't offer it on their website now. Maybe I will call them. Northwoodswis

northwoodswis4,

I can try to find out the minimum growth period for Prime Ark Freedom but if it is similar to Prime Ark 45, then you may want to limit your purchase to 'trial' plants. If I back out the 60 days for fruiting from the total frost free days in my area (180) then we are looking at 130-135 days for the plants to begin fruiting (about 4.3 months). You would need at least that many frost-free days to get a crop.

You may be able to speed that process by warming the ground over the plants by using black landscape fabric or similar material or by covering the fruiting plants when you reach frost periods in the Fall.

Going a completely different direction, you may have more luck with less cold hardy trailing blackberries which you can cover more easily. If you have a long period of snow cover, the better insulated the trailing blackberries would be. There is at least one person I know of that grows trailing blackberries in Alaska but he has a lot fewer frost free days to work with.

Well I'll stick with the advice from professional PHD breeders, but thanks for your help gardengal. As I said I tried your method for three years. Not one took. So I'm done trying without scarification. Maybe certain wild species do better than others, but it is just too hard. Even with scarification it is still a very long process.
For breeding purposes it is not a good technique. At least raspberries are easier, but I do want to breed blackberries too. When time permits.

Northwoods. I grow a number of trailing blackberries. many are not hardy here, but covering them with leaves and using anti-desiccant sprays can help them survive. I need more time for experimentation to find best method. So far I can make them survive at least. Yield is low, I hope to have better results next spring. It's a lot of work, and such. Anyway your idea of growing wild is a good one, it will work if you can find seed, Also what gardengal suggests just putting them out there could work. I have never seen it, but something here may be prevending germination. All gardening is local. I really do think though people should not give advice on techniques they themselves have never tried. That is a huge red flag in my book.

greetings:

Years ago I noticed people picking native blackberries in
western WI around the town of Amery while visiting a friend. Lots of folks out with 5 quart pails picking.

My friend had already picked and his wife had a blackberry pie for me. Mighty nice.

The native blackberries seemed thick as fleas is that area,
yet I have not found them to any extent in SE WI.

When I lived in Eastern Minnesota, I found them to be plentiful too. I always wondered why nobody offered the
native strain or perhaps would use them in breeding purposes to come up with some super hardy blackberries for WI and other similar climates.

Prime Ark Freedom looks like it ripens earlier than Prime Ark 45 by maybe 2 weeks. That gives you about 15 more days to work with.

Here is a link that might be useful: Prime Ark Freedom

I know right where Amery is. We almost bought a house there once. Were people picking along the roadside?
Apparently the Stenulson variety that Wallace-Woodstock used to offer was a local wild strain. They also list Darrow as zone 3, so I may try a few of those.
I only have ordered three Prime Ark Freedoms for experimental purposes. I plan to cover them with one-foot square styrofoam blocks in winter and expect to only be able to harvest the primocane fruit most years, since the global warming didn't pan out like many of us northerners had hoped. The canes will probably freeze, but hopefully I can keep the roots alive. I have lots of room for them to spread, so yield doesn't need to be huge to please us. I like the thornless feature. I would expect that the Darrows and Freedoms would not necessarily ripen at the same time, either.
Today I saw a recipe for blackberry pickles. Sounded really gross!
Thanks, everyone, for all of your suggestions.
Northwoodswis

Northwoods:

Yes they were picking along the roadsides. Also along any power lines thru the wooded areas as those spots were clear cut for the lines so lots of sunlight and lots of blackberries.

Sorry not to be more definite, but my friend moved to Spooner after that. I do recall it was outside of Amery as we were heading to a lake to do some fishing. People everywhere with their pails. Even saw some who parked their motorcycles and joined the foray to just eat them fresh on the spot.

I could not figure out what they were picking but my friend mentioned it was blackberries as his family had just picked the day before.

The issue will be to find some and dug them when dormant? Wish I could be more helpful. Good luck.

My friend worked at the Soil Conservation District but then was transferred to the office in Spooner, WI. Just a possibility, but try contacting someone at the soil conservation office for the Amery area or for your local area. Those workers put on a lot of miles walking the local
fields and know their areas well. I would think they could give you directions to a local wild stand. Or try a local
DNR office.

Spartan-Apple,
Okay. Good idea. I just sent an email to the Soil Conservation District to one of the workers listed who had been there a long time. We will see what happens. Thanks. Northwoodswis

Wild thorny blackberries are common in my area in North Central WI near the UP border. Production seems sporadic with some patches being productive for a few years and then declining from the center of the patch out; possibly from nutrition depletion. Cold winters with little snow seem to cause winterkill on the overwintering canes, and dry August weather causes the berries to dry up. Years ago my wine making neighbors used to pick gallons of blackberries occasionally forgetting where my property lines were. This past season, my family was eagerly anticipating a large harvest of blackberries along a public roadway - just before they were ripe, the county road commission mowed them down!

If my body permits, I could probably dig some plants up from my property this spring...

If you're looking for commercially available hardy blackberries, Fedco sells this variety from Maine that's purportedly hardy throughout zone 4 and perhaps into zone 3.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nelson Blackberry

If you're looking for commercially available hardy blackberries, Fedco sells this variety from Maine that's purportedly hardy throughout zone 4 and perhaps into zone 3.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nelson Blackberry

Thanks. I ordered three Nelsons from Fedco, 3 Darrows from Woodstock, and three Prime Ark Freedoms from Starks, I believe. I would have to look up in my records where the Prime Arks are coming from to be sure. I don't want to have to fuss with a lot of special treatment in fall, if possible. I'm actually not that big of a blackberry fan, but all I've tried are the store ones, which isn't always a very good test. We're trying introduce as much variety into our diets as possible, as each fruit has its unique nutritional features. I have had good results with kiwis, but poor results with plums and cherries so far, so hard to predict what may be a winner in my orchard. Northwoodswis

Good discussion.

I'm looking to add a few varieties to my southern Wisconsin land. The last two winters have caused my Triple Crown canes to die back to the roots.

I see that Jung's (central Wisconsin based garden center) is adding Prime Ark Freedoms to their catalog this year. They also have Prime Jim, which also fruits on first year canes.

Blackberries are my favorite, so I've ordered both of the Prime's. Hopefully at least one will produce.

I have been looking at hardy species as of late and three seem to be decent. Nelson, Darrow, and Illini Hardy. At first I was leaning towards Nelson, but only one source, cost is high and little info on the cultivar. Illini Hardy seems OK, but has a long acid taste before becoming sweet. Darrow seems like the best choice. So I'm going with this one and try to breed a more complex tasting berry with this as a base. Just for fun, and you never know. This sets me back as I need to grow out Darrow, but that is OK, I have many seedlings currently of raspberry crosses I can focus on.
Northwoods, good choice in Darrow and Nelson for your area. Please keep me updated on progress. Also would like to know how Darrow compares to Nelson in taste, growing habits and hardiness. I know nothing till 2016 to report here, but please keep me updated when the time comes.

About 3 summers ago I came across a patch of wild blackberries that were bigger, sweeter, and just had an incredibly wonderful taste. (they were on a friend's property). I dug up 5 plants and transplanted them to my place. 3 survived. They sort of just held on the rest of that year. The next year they came back, but all season long about all I had was 3 lone berry plants. I was surprised how slow they were about spreading. But in the third year they really took off. I had runners coming up all around the 3 original plants. However, not a single one of the original or the new ones bloomed or produced fruit. But I had the time and space and so I left them and look forward to seeing what happens this summer! To be honest, its just been a fun project for me and I don't think it could be justified due to the time and effort and the fact that as good as those wild berries were, they weren't nearly as large as commercial varieties. But they were so good! Oh well...Just wanted to add that bit of useless information to this thread on domesticating wild blackberries to say it can be done, but for me it was slow and not yet productive!

We have decent wilds here too, I thought about using them, but they may be male and female plants, the berries are small. So I just forage them instead.

In the middle of winter even small berries sound great. Maybe when out in the mosquitoes in summer picking, that might not be the case! Thanks, everyone, for all your helpful comments. Northwoodswis

Drew (and others)- Since my transplanted wild blackberries finally started to spread a lot this past summer (via underground runners) but none ever bloomed, I've wondered if perhaps the ones I transplanted were males only. This summer I had about a 7 foot circle filled with new sprouts but none bloomed. The original transplant is old and sad and the new ones that came up during summer didn't get very large (due to coming up late, not bad health because they looked extremely healthy). So what u think? Could they all be males? if so, will they always only be males as they spread?

Most species are hermaphrodites, Rubus chamaemorus being an exception. I was probably concerned about this for no reason. I have heard in some species of black raspberries the flowers not being self fertile. That is the term i should have used. You have more than one plant, it should not be an issue. I admit to knowing little about this in the Rubus species. Well in any plants for that matter. Indian Free peach is not self fertilie, it happens from time to time I guess?

(Zone 3~4)

It's the wild red's that tend to be self-incompatible. The self-compatibility of the blacks actually causes a one way incompatibility between red and black hybridization (which happens pretty regularly in the wild - is what got me into breeding- just look for brambles with purple fruit). A note on hardy blackberries....don't trust the labeling XD. Darrow is less hardy than Chester Thornless.

There is a lot of talk in the University and literature communities about the difficulty of Rubus germination but it is not as bad as it is made to seem. I can attest that seeds can be germinated without scarification (though I general hand scar a good portion of each seed lot - if not the whole lot) though it takes an extra month to get your first germination....then they tend to come in one large burst before going back to a scattered germination several months. I store my seeds in moist peat moss moisture is essential in stratification for chemical reactions and Rubus seeds do not like to dry out over extended periods, microbes in the peat moss also help break down the seed coat.

I don't have a lot of experience germinating blackberry seeds (they are supposed to have a lower germination rate than raspberries) but I get a 30~50%+ germination rate on a lot of my cross's and since each fruit can have 100+ seeds, just collect a lot of seed and skimp a little, you should still get some results (that said a little bit of sandpaper on some of the seeds will help ensure success).

If Darrow is less hardy than Chester, than it is not hardy at all. Chester can die to the crown here in zone 6. As far as not being self fertile A very well known breeder had patented a black later to find out in trials it was not self fertile. I never heard of a red not being self fertile.

(zone 3~4)

Sorry for the late response after your prompt one, my last semester of college was a rough one and I don't get online much now that I am out (hopefully....still waiting on the diplomas to be mailed out).

Anyways, I should clarify a couple of my statements. Yes, Chester takes a lot of damage in this region my plants are young but the person I got them (I'm in a cold valley and she is on a hill) has had flowers every year that I have been there (said she had no damage at all a few years ago when we had an extremely warm winter). I have dozens of flowers on Triple Crown this year which is comparable to Chester but sadly my Darrow has yet to produce a single flower and I have had it planted longer. Part of this is the effects of erect vs semi-erect habit (Chester gets a little more protection from snow than Darrow does here). Darrow may very well be more hardy in your region than Chester but for me it is not. I'm actually tempted to try some zone 7 trailing brambles (have tayberry/boysenberry/newberry), with mulch and snow cover (if were lucky enough to keep it through the winter like we have the last two years) they could be brought to flower, all ya need is one, if the cross works....

For self-incompatibility I am mostly pulling from memory of a bramble breeding book I rented for a summer and have not physically confirmed this with wild types. But I believe the reds had most of the self-incompatibility bred out of them. Also, since blacks generally only have limited primocane fruiting it seems likely that the ancestry of Niwot's wild black raspberry parent had a cultivated red in it's background or even a wild red somewhere which lead to the self-incompatibility of its sibling release (the first wild purple I remember finding had/has pretty decent primocane fruiting have used it in a fair amount of my crosses).

The germination rates I mentioned of 30~50% is with scarification and several months of stratification i peat moss. However, before my last post I had planted some stratified but unscarred open pollinated blackberry seeds, all were under-ripe which may be of importance. Prime Jim and Prime Ark 45 seeds were also froze and frosted numerous times (which keep them from fully ripening). Black Satin had a poor but acceptable level of germination for this discussion, Prime Jim was the worst of the three with only 3 germination out of a couple hundred seeds but Prime Ark 45 had several hundred germination out of one to two thousand seeds perhaps a 10 to 15 percent germination rate. So it can work but genotype may play a big roll in germination rates of scarred seeds. The ripeness and frost/freeze would also play a role.

Also for long-term storage seeds would not kept "moist" or be stored in peat moss but I would think that the proper humidity level would be crucial (think they have been stored for 20 yrs).

Zone (3~4)

northwoodswis4

I actually live in your area and have seen at least two different species of blackberries. The most common seems to be allegheniensis which has an erect habbit and is quite thorny but can have very good fruit (though is variable). The other is smaller and grows like a black raspberry, might be hispidus but I can't possitively I.D. it. Rubus canadensis is also supposed to grow in this area and I beleive it is an upright grower similar to allegheniensis but is thornless ,however, I have yet to see one. Not sure what wisconsinensis looks like for sure, might be similar to hispidus, is hard to find good images but I did find a map on the usda website that has it native to polk and st. criox and then nothing until central Wisconsin where it has some more "native" counties.

Map is here:

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=RUWI

Thanks for the info and your experiences. Useful info for me, appreciate it.

I'm having the best blackberry year ever, I have way too many! Yes the trailing typoes cn be grown with protection, and well worth it! I tasted Newberry for the first time, fantastic fully ripe. Tayberry was exceptional, and wyeberry super good. I just picked a couple quarts of boysenberries. I'm having a blast!

Thornless blackberry (Rubus canadensis) 'Chester'

www.homedesigndirectory.com.au/gardening/plant.../rubus-canadensis/chester/?...id...Detailed description of the Thornless blackberry (Rubus canadensis) 'Chester' cultivar/variety

I found this while searching for info on the smooth blackberry canadensis . This says chester is a selection of canadensis . Should be hardier if this is true . So it must be a hybrid . Interested in canadensis for breeding hardier blackberries . I wish there were better identifications for Wisconsinis as I may have it already .

OK I found the answer . Chester is from Darrow x Brazos cross .

That is interesting Jerry, as Brazos is not very hardy, but Darrow is supposed to be. Brazos is drought and heat tolerant, A Texas A&M cultivar, and a very acid fruit. It grows big, and that I guess is what they wanted from it? So if Darrow is not hardy, either is Chester as all hardiness in Chester comes from Darrow.

Drew51

I haven't got to taste Newberry yet as I didn't get around to protecting my plants last winter (Boysen and Tay still produced "some" flowers) and last the '4' flowers in the year of planting while attempting crosses. Tay does not seem to ripen well here though boysen does if the birds don't get it (and I don't forget it will all the other stuff I got going). I ordered a Wineberry a few years ago and got a skimpy tip layer that died on me.....found out after words that it is on the Wisconsin 'invasive species' list so did not have it replaced though I have worked with a similar species.

Also I believe drought tolerance is supposed to be linked to winter hardyness. I had an instructor who said that "all winter injury is due to dessication", of course some of that dessication comes from ruptured cells, but if a cell can handle low cell moisture perhaps it can dry down better in the winter preventing cell rupture. Anyways it seems like I recall drought tolerance being used in a grain crop to improve hardyness.

Jerry63

Thanks for the info.

Of course the fun part with hunting the wild blackberries is finding ones that are hardy compared to the others. Where I'm at most of our wild blackberries die down to the ground half the years or more. They really only survive to fruit in protected sites......its a good thing that they can survive dieing to the ground and still sucker or we might not have any..... in fact I do not remember ever seeing a wild blackberry in our area growing up. I would not be surprised if they were all but wiped out during some of our rougher winters only to return from birds spreading seeds about.