Ortho has a couple of different systemics. My observation is that the more dangerous a product is to you or your unborn children the less you have to worry about it damaging your plants. The pyrethroid products that are safe to use around humans and pets can damage orchids, especially thin leaved kinds. I would certainly be careful with blooms but I have used Orthenex (nasty) on a blooming Cycnodes without any problem and I think that would be one of the more extreme scenarios.

H

It only says Ortho systemic insect killer. Also says formerly isotox.

Me 171, I also have the Ortho (with the main ingredient being 4% acephate) that I use on my plants for bugs. I have not yet used it on my orchids as I have not had a problem (until recently... had a few scales appear on some BLC hybrids). Now I am asking the same question you are, how safe is it for the plants? I agree 110% with Howard about the more deadly it is to you & me, the safe it is for the plants. I used Insecticidal soap (from Home Depot) & it burnt the hell out of my poor gingers & bamboos & did not take care of the problem. When I used the orotho with acephate, it really took care of the Mealy bugs & scale! Best of all, it did not appear to have any caused and harm to my plants!

-Ray-

I have used it before and had no problems. I just get nervious using it after I get new types of orchids and when they are in spike.

There is too much evidence linking use of insecticide to nerve damage in humans. There is strong evidence between pesticide use and Parkinson's disease. Old time growers have a very high incidence of this disease.

I would strongly caution against the use of these pesticides indoors and around children. I think we need to rethink our handling of insects and disease affecting our plants. Being wise and trying simple organic methods should be our first line of defense.

Jane

I plan on applying the insecticide to the plant not myself. Many of the old time growers also did not bother to take the precautions. Not to mention less regulations on the danger of chemicals available to un-licensed people. I will not be spraying them inside I will be doing that in the ventilated shop. The simple organic methods do not work as thoroughly and we end up being exposed to pest bacteria, fungi ect for longer periods of time than necessary.

howard_a,

You wrote "I have used Orthenex (nasty)..."

Would you please elaborate as to what is "nasty" about this product? Thanks.

--Stitz--

I've just finished taking a Pesticide Use and Safety course. I've never been a big fan of chemicals, but I think they have become so regulated over the last few decades that you're pretty safe IF you carefully follow the label. That includes whether you can use it inside, and what kind of gloves, clothing, and other personal protective equipment should be used.

That said, I do like to start with the least dangerous approach and work my way up. I'm afraid my experience lies mainly with non-orchids, so I can't give specific recommendations. For normal houseplants, I like neem oil and horticultural soaps and oils. For heavy-duty infestations of almost anything except spider mites, I use various imidacloprid products, most of which cannot be used indoors, although there is a granule that is safe to apply indoors, but it's hard to find and quite expensive.

Greetings -
Orthenex/Isotox is a pretty effective systemic. By "nasty" I think the universal reaction to the smell is "gak" - it resembles rotting garlic. Like any pesticide, you will need to use it about 3 times as regular intervals (7-10 days) to make sure you get the newly-hatched juveniles.
If you have a farm/garden supply store, try to find a can of pure acephate (the active ingredient in Orthene). It will be cheaper, and a lifetime supply. Use with a buffer to adjust the water pH to about 5 - this will extend the effective life of the mixture on the plant. I have never had any problems with this chemical disfiguring my plants, buds or flowers.
You never want to use a systemic on anything that will be eaten by any creature other than a pest.
Acephate is also effective against mealybugs, scale, whitefly and some mites.
Regards - Nancy

Thanks for sharing all that good information, Nancy.

I took notes, since even tho I read every label, I always find choosing a product very difficult -- and the warnings are usually terrifying. Just remembering Orthene/Orthenex and acephate is a whole lot easier on my sole remaining neuron :)

Something that Jane said earlier about rethinking how we use chemicals got me to thinking. Lady bugs are carnivorous. Does anyone know if their larva poses a threat to orchid plants & buds? It might be a worth while preventative measure to get some of the little bugs & keep them around to hopefully prevent any big infestations. I know that using systemic is the most effective way to really take care of the big infestations, but maybe the little lady bugs can eat away the parents before they have a chance to make their millions of babies!

-Ray-

I used Orthenex and did not have a problem with my orchids. However, I agree that the smell is not good, so I use it mainly outdoors. Indoors I use Bayer Advanced Rose and Flower insect killer (my orchid area is not a small, enclosed area). That is also a systemic and has a better smell. I only have about 40 plants, so I buy the pre-mixed spray bottle. With it I can spot spray the second I get suspicious. It contains Imidacloprid, as Watergirl says, kills on contact and keeps on working for 30 days.

Me, you grow in zone 6 and I assumed you were using the chemicals indoors.

Having grown plants both indoors and out organically for over 30 yrs, I've yet to become ill from a fungal or bacterial infection caused by my plants. I'm not sure what you mean.

Sorry if my concern about the use of pesticides indoors offended you.

Jane

No offense taken, I do grow indoors, but I treat and let them dry in a shop that is not part of the living environment. It is where we stain and use other scary things that we don't want to be exposed to. I doubt it is possible to actually get a fungal or bacterial infection crossed over from plants, but I just would rather get rid of the bugs especially from my living environment as fast as I can, as I live in an apartment most of the time and sleep in the room I grow my orchids. I am now at my parents house and I waited until I was to use the chemicals so that I would not be in close contact with it.

I did use goggles as the warning says irreversible eye damage can happen. I also used thick rubber gloves and had my skin covered. I had my father who is a doctor read over the bottle to see if I should be using a respirator or mask of some sort and he felt it would not be necessary and that it is ok to spray and then bring back into the house when it is dried. According to what he knows about stuff like this he felt the danger is limited to direct contact to skin or eye.

I did take what you said into account and organic gardening does have its merit especially in growing food. I just don't think people should be afraid to use the technology we have as long as they are responsible and do not over use it along with proper disposal.

Like I said no offense taken and I hope I also did not offend you, this is a place we should all share our passions and knowledge. We all have our different approaches and should voice them. If we didn't this forum would lack sufficient advice and be of lesser value.

Hi Ray,

I think lady bugs are safe with orchids. Taylor's guide to orchids has a paragraph on beneficial insects. The short version reads that the finest all purpose predator is the green lacewing, which preys on aphids, mites, spider mites, mealy bugs, thrips, immature scale and whiteflies. He writes that ladybugs eat scale, aphids, mealybugs, spider mites and thrips. I would be all for the good bugs vs the bad if I had a greenhouse but as a windowsill grower I tend to search the nasties out with toothpicks.

That is great Clarie! I have a screened balcony where I grow my plants, so I could release the bugs out there & they would have no choice but to stick around =0). I have another question going back to systemic treatments. I have 3 plants that I have some bacterial spots forming on. After applying a systemic pesticide, can I then (a couple days later of course) apply a systemic fungicide? Also, any nontoxic alternatives Jane? I am really excited about how this thread has turned out Me_171! Thanks for getting it up & going!

-Ray-

There is an important distinction that needs to be made here.
OrTHENE and OrthoNEX are NOT the same pesticide.

They are the same to the extent that both employ the active ingredient ACEPHATE.

But OrthoNEX is a mixture of Acephate with the fungicide that is sold as FUNGINEX.

The warning on the Funginex bottle warns against getting even the smallest amount of this product in your eyes...it can cause blindness. You should not inhale this product either.

Orthonex is the product that used to be (and probably still is) sold as ROSEPRIDE, and is used to prevent blackspot in roses.

These chemicals are not "nothing". They have an impact on the environment every time you use them, whether you see it or not. If you are using Orthinex and you don;t really need to be preventing fungal disease, you are using a doubly environmentally unfriendly gaent unnecessarily.

I stopped using all forms of chemical pesticide and herbicide (like Round Up) when I began to notice physical abnormalities in the local population of native green treefrogs on my property. I live on 5 acres of land and have pretty extensive ornamental plantings, as well as a population of frogs that probably numbers in the tens of thousands (our property backs up to a Nature Preserve and a natural wetland).

We noted that the new generations of baby treefrogs were hatching out on our property with deformities, mainly missing eyes and deformed heads, and some with missing limbs, when we were using Cygon 2E to control black pepper scale on bromeliads and Orthene to control magnolia scale on palms. The treefrogs were using our bromeliads as incubators for their eggs and tadpoles. We stopped using it and within 2 generations we stopped seeing these genetic abnormalities in our frogs. This was a very scary wakeup call to me, especially as we have a well for our water.

THINK before you spray.

You did the right thing bihai, and it sounds like you needed to spray a lot of chemical so you really were making an impact on the surrounding area. I still feel that in situations like mine where I sprayed less than a quarter gallon in a shop room which allows me to contain the chemical is still an appropriate measure. I was using Ortho systemic insect killer which is supposed to be the new isotox and I would have to look at the bottle again but I believe it is an 8% solution of acephate only and then when mixed down to the 2 ounces per gallon (I did one ounce fore 1/2 gallon) it is fairly diluted.

Bonsai folks are big proponents of ladybugs, lacewings, etc. One guy here in MN has his collection in the living room all winter, and he releases both to control pests. Occasionally, he'll find one of the beneficials away from the trees, but they stay close to the food source.

You can order them by mail, and they seem ideal for the house if it's too cold to take plants outside... if the cats can't get close enough to send pots flying during the hunt. :)

Bihai, that's scary. In MN, we have deformed frogs, only they're not getting better. Hmmm, sounds as if you've got a helpful case study for Depts. of Natural Resources.

Whitecat8

Thanks Whitecat! I am going to look for lady bugs tonight! I think I probably need to go ahead and finish off the 2 week cycle of treatment on the plants since I have already started it. Then after things have gotten better, I will order some lady bugs!

Bihai, my grandfather bought 22 acres of land in N.C. several years back that was an old mine of some sort of mineral. There was a large pond at the bottom of the property line that always got lots of run off from higher up on his property (it is on the side of a mountain). The frogs all have major deformities (missing legs, over sized eyes, no eyes, extra limbs, etc) now nearly 9 years later, all the frogs are gone & there is no life in the pond.

-Ray-

Every fall I try to get the lady bugs to move inside the greenhouse as I move the plants in. I usually get 10 - 20, (I grow some mini roses and they attract the ladys due to the supply of aphids)however, about the same time they move in so do the greenhouse lizards (Green Anole). The lady bugs last untill the temps drop to 50 degrees at night then, either they get eaten or they hibernate until I open the doors in early spring. Always somthing!

Good day all

First let me start with the fact that i live on a tropical island where pests are very prevalent and there are very few ladybugs and no groundwater at all to worry about.

I have used all the Ortho Products for some time now on orchids with great success.

The Orthene is a good all round insecticide. If you have an infestation already then i have found that one application is often all it takes. this includes ant nests in the pots. This product works best for scales and mites with hard shells.

Isotox, now marketed as the 'systemic insecticide (previously known as isotox)' is the best for soft leaf eaters such as caterpillars and slugs.

Orthenex is a systemic insecticide with the added benefit of disease control.

I use orthenex at one half strength for orchids every 8-9 weeks and Isotox at half strength to control anything that gets established. (normally only happens if i forget a treatment) as well as using half strenght i use goggles and gloves when dealing with these products as they are dangerous. the lable says danger and this is the highest level of alert allowed by labeling laws. i also do not SPRAY for mature orchids; i mix 2 gallons of the product in a large tub and then dip each plant. the only time i spray is for my seedlings (deflasked 4 months ago now) because dipping is impractical for so many.

I also do a thorough flush every 3 months or so to remove buildup.

the most important thing is to keep all of these away from your eyes. Fungicides are worse. i also use CAPTAN every 2 -3 months at half strength. and this can cause permanent eye damage in seconds if exposed in dry form.

whether to use these products is your call. i can only say that i have never had any problem with my plants. Phals Paths, Catts, Epi's, Dend's and Rhonco. at any stage from flask to flower.

just be safe.

I have a Rugosa rose and it is being besieged by, i think, japanese beetles. Any recommendations on what to use on it. I have tried some home plant sprays and it has adversly affected my rose plant. Thanks for any help. Paul