Hi Daylily: I had one of the apple leafhoppers on my apple tree last year and sprayed them with 70% Neem oil, no more leafhopper problem.

Because the best control is provided by natural predators, the insect parasites such as the Minute Pirate Bug, etc. Spraying any pesticde, especially a broad spectrum one such as Neem Oil products, is counterproductive. Many places have reported good results wiht Inseticidal Soaps or Surround,the clay based plant spray.

hi, Don't really want to spray a broad spectrum insecticides espesialy since my garden is teaming with all kinds of beneificials however the leafhoppers are way out of control and are really doing maijor damage to my coneflower. I'll try using an incetisidal soap.

or maybe alcohol and then rince it off.

Neem Oil (please use raw or cold-pressed oil to maximize delivery of the active ingredient) is an excellent and safe way to bring leaf-hoppers under control.

You may find a similar thread on this forum to be of additional interest before you decide against neem oil based on a single opinion.

Al

daylily, insecticidal soaps are much more 'broad spectrum' than neem. Kimmsr simply doesn't understand how neem works.

Insecticidal Soaps are very broad spectrum and will kill many insects contacted by the soap, but once it is dry it is no longer effective as an insecticide. Neem Oil products are also broad spectrum pesticides and will kill a wide range of insects, including bees, and does have some longer lasting affect when dry. Many people think that because people have used products from the tree from which the Neem Oils are extracted and it has very low toxicity to humans that Neem Oils are non toxic, but since any pesticide is toxic to the target insects these products are toxic. Everything I see about Neem Oil says to not spray it about when bees are present, and since I have bees present most all the time there is no time I could spray this.
The goal of every organic gardener should be to get the soil they have built into a good, healthy soil so the plants they grow are strong and healthy and better able to withstand insect pests and to create an environment that has a lot of beneficial insects working that will help to control any insect pests. The goal of any organic gardener should be to not need to spray any pesticide, although there may be times when that might be needed. If an organic gardener must spray pesticides frequently there is a problem that needs to be addressed and that is most often soil related, something about the nutrients the plants are getting is not balanced.
If there is a pest problem an organic gardener will start with the least toxic means available, not one of the most toxic.

hi, thanks for all your suggestions so far!

Kimmsr

"The goal of every organic gardener should be to get the soil they have built into a good, healthy soil so the plants they grow are strong and healthy and better able to withstand insect pests"

I agree with you completly about the fact the pesticides should be a last resort. thats why I work so hard to build good soil and control pests with beneficals and non oxic methodes like hand picking. in fact this is the first time I've had to resort to pesticides but these leafhoppers are way out of control.

I did a little reasearch and all products with neem in them are required by law to say that they are toxic to bees when bees are directly sprayed and not to spray neem with bees around.

I also found a lab test of neem used to control mites in bee colonies and the bees had less then a 10% mortality rate. I don't know how both of these things can be true but somehow they are.

another thing I found is that
Insectisidal soap is not required to have any bee warning and is not considered toxic to bees for whats it worth.

I'd love to let the beneficals eat the leafhoppers but there not so I feel a pesticide is the only way to save my coneflower.

given all of that I'm not sure what to use I could try making a home made insecticidal soap using 1 1/2 tablespoons of dishwashing liquid to 1 quart of water
(this would be my prefrence since the bugs could be gotten rid of by
tommorow and it's also considerably cheaper then any store bought product)

or I can try and find neem oil.

or something else?

thanks for everyones help so far!

Actually, most of us don't need a guardian to establish our goals. I know I'm perfectly capable of working within IPM principles and deciding for myself what acceptable losses are, when additional remediation is in order, and what the source of that remediation will be. Inferring that neem oil is one of the most toxic approaches to IPM practices is actually laughable.

Neem works in many ways. It is effective both in topical and a systemic applications. Ingested, it is an anti-feedant, an oviposition deterrent (anti-egg laying), a growth inhibitor, a mating disrupter, and a chemosterilizer. Azadirachtin, a tetranortriterpenoid compound, closely mimics the hormone ecdysone, which is necessary for reproduction in insects. When present, it takes the place of the real hormone and thus disrupts not only the feeding process, but the metamorphic transition as well, disrupting molting. It interferes with the formation of chitin (insect "skin") and stops pupation in larvae, thus short-circuiting the insect life cycle. It also inhibits flight ability, helping stop insect spread geographically

Tests have shown that azadirachtin is effective in some cases at concentrations as low as 1 ppm, but some producers use alcohol in the extraction of neem oil from plant parts which causes the azadirachtin to be removed from the oil. Some products touting neem oil as an ingredient actually have no measurable amounts of azadiractin. I use what is referred to either as cold pressed or virgin neem oil. You may also occasionally find it referred to as "raw" neem or "crude" neem oil.

Al

Not trying to beat a dead horse at all here BUT

I have a major infestation of what appears to be several species of leafhopper on my grapes and possibly my zucchini (haven't confirmed this under the scope yet).

My grapevines are really suffering. I have been trying neem with little success. Here is what I have been doing:

1T high quality, cold-pressed neem oil in 1 quart of water with a splash of liquid castile soap. I have been spraying about twice per week and it seems to be getting worse if anything. All 4 vines are affected but the one with the most fruit is the worst off. I bought Bt today and read that the most abundant "inert" product was a petroleum product, and needless to say, I don't want to use it on my plants.

I don't have any up close pix of the damage but can take some if need be.

UGH. Help!

Here is a link that might be useful: Jackalope's Freedom Garden - May 2009

I forgot to mention at the outset that Floating Row Covers are one of the best defenses against leaf hoppers although some plants may not be easily covered with them. The best defense against Leaf Hoppers is a strong and healthy plant followed by predators. The University of California suggests Insecticidal Soaps and kaolin clay coverings if other management techniques do not work, but spraying most of the other very broad spectrum poisons, including Neem Oil products, would be harmful to the predators of the Leaf Hoppers. Not even the miracle stuff known as Neem Oil can distinguish between beneficial insects and the insect pests and it will kill both.

Personally I would go with what seems like the least harmful method. I would use Surround but it appears the need to kill something as opposed to make it leave is strong here.

And then you have to ask yourself......why only the coneflower? Is it weak or a hybrid that has lost some of the species natural defenses? Gardening requires the gardener to be brutal with his/her crops sometimes for the good of the garden.

I'd like to bring this topic up again as I've noticed leafhopper nymphs showing up in my garden again this year. I'm an organic gardener for a reason, so I don't want to jump to the most toxic slution thats labeled "Organic". However I know that some of the least toxic solutions only work if the problem is small.

After spraying neem last year I was able to drive the leafhoppers away from my coneflower. The hoppers then attacked my lettuce, same story more neem, more dead leafhoppers, they moved to my beans. eventually they ended up in he lawn and I ended up with leafhopper bites, my plants ended up with leafhopper damage, my benificals probally all went running at the sight of the neem and the only winners were the leafhoppers. I don't want plant viruses, dead lettuce, or leafhopper bites so I guess I'm asking what to do.

Is hot pepper/garlic spray effective? Does it chace away benificals? how about people?

Is neem really dangerous?

How about insecticidal soap?

I wish I could leave the leaf hoppers alone and let the wasps take care of them but I know that won't work.

Thank You for your help.

I don't know if it is the case with coneflower but, Kaolin clays, specifically Surround, can cause mite flareups on apple trees as it kills the mite predators.

Kimmsr: great point about the floating rowcovers even if the horse is already out of the barn.

Dr. Jack: FYI, Vaseline is a petroleum product and many skin lotions contain petroleum products.

Daylily: think of it as an excellent learning experience, you have identified an excellent trap crop, coneflower!