velamina, thanks for bringing up WINTER orchid culture!!

NOW is the time for all good ORCHIDISTS to come to the aid of their plants!!!

--Stitz--

now i don't qualify as a "good orchid grower" i'm not "good" to them at all. lol
i have a small home grown collection, and it has been my practice to allow the simple varieties i grow to adjust to my winter environment.
i don't supplement with artificial light, i don't fertilize during the winter, i do reduce watering, i do move many of them closer to the windows, i do sigh frequently during the cold, dark months and have been known to purchase something in bloom to refresh me during the long dreaded winter.
i grow paphs,phals,oncs. and ig types. just enough to keep me busy.
what do you grow? which ones have hooked you? hahaha

what's an "ig"?
I don't have any, yet....

I have a long path and a lot of work ahead of me before I can be considered an orchidist, but I can dream :) I worry much about my growing conditions indoors. I'm also trying to keep myself on a tight budget so I don't set myself up for doom.

So far the only thing I don't do is walk them (ahem, yes all my plants and orchids have names :D). My tastes are evolving but so far I love the oncidium family and the miniatures! I will have to limit myself for now with the phals (plus one baby cattleya) and go through all the seasons indoors and out before proceeding with any other varieties. I could always use good advice for growing indoors.

Kw, it's great that yours have been able to adapt; I pray mine will adjust as well as I continue to add each month.

If your trees drop their leaves in the fall, I'd think just getting the 'kids close to that big window (6" for catt 12"-18" phals?) may suffice. They probably won't thrive, but as long as they are not high light lovers, you should be OK. If the window/sunlight is direct and bright, you may need to move them back further.

As far as trying to use the chandelier, if anything you'd probably want to look at some high wattage CFL's (55-85watts $) or LED ($$$$), but if this is in a living area it might be considered ugly and bothersome to non-orchies ;-)

I agree with kwmackdog as far as giving the natural conditions a try, if they struggle you can consider the artificial light option(s) then.

Your first winter will be kind of an experiment, you'll know for sure what you will need next year.

Good luck.

Bob

Hi velamina,

No one else has really mentioned it, but a chandelier is likely not the best lighting option for your orchids. To start, it's a little high from the table. Every foot away from a light source diminishes the amount of usable light by half. It may not seem like it to the human eye, but you can check this with a light meter if you can borrow one. You'd probably want to be no more than a foot or so from the table. And you want a cupped shade around each bulb that will direct all of the light towards your orchids instead of wasting it (and your money) on the rest of the room.

Secondly, why bother with expensive grow lights? Why not place the plants on a shelf right by that west window, blocked by a hopefully deciduous tree, and maybe add a couple of flexible necked lamps with a 42W compact fluorescent (read: twisty energy saving bulb that is equivalent to a 150W) bulb? That should get you just enough extra light to get them through winter and you wouldn't lose your dining room and chandelier.

Hope this helps.

Julie

Westoh great catch, I forgot about the leaves! I also forgot that winters are brighter (little things I learned from my kids about how the earth revolves around the sun).

Even though I should be okay with adding phals for now, I was thinking ahead; without proper lighting, even the dancing ladies will be a challenge. My place gets a fair amount of light but by no means is it considered bright (or bright "enough").

I'm going to look into the bulbs that you mentioned. If I could make the temporary lighting situation work, it would be really low cost and ideal. I also have back up recessed lighting in this area and we eat in the kitchen :) I would have the option of replacing those bulbs whenever needed for certain family gatherings.

Jam, I love how you took the time to make out your list! (I'll get to that in a minute...)

I hung my chandelier low over the table before I moved in because I like the look; it's only 28" above the table. I thought originally that if I placed the orchids directly underneath they may be too close, but having read your response it looks like I may have to do just that. I'm not set up with a cupped shade like you mention, but I'll just try to manage with what I have and take it from there.

The shelf is a fantastic idea for next year or down the road. I have the perfect place right by the window and I will be adding shelves floor to ceiling, about 2" wide. More importantly, did I understand you correctly and is it possible to use regular fluorescent lighting with some amount of success?

Aside from this, since I'm part decorator I look closely at foliage, colors in collection (I stay away from the maroon and yellow combo some oncs. have) and the pottery they're housed in. This is because I like to keep things that are alike together (same with photos, etc.) I would love some recommendations on orchids with good foliage; I think phals can hold their own so far :)

stitzeweller, sorry about the ig, i meant intergeneric, except i'm way too lazy to type and couldn't remember the abbreviation.
i just know i have a bunch of them.
disclaimer: i have been known to make up my own abbreviations and i eschew most formal rules of grammar. hahaha
besides that i'm perfect * huge eye roll*

kw,
that's ok; i'm the most perfectest of all!

--Stitz--

I do the natural thing over the winter too but on a 3 shelf bookshelf in an east window. There's not quite enough light tho, too many cloudy days plus I use plastic to stop window drafts. I too have done what jamcm suggested - I picked up a cheap ((seriously cheap - just a few dollars)) clip on drop light from HD and a 42W compact fluorescent bulb, clipped it onto the pole of a floor lamp (now the lamp has a dual use) about a foot, foot and a half away from the shelves and shined it "at" the center shelf so the light covered all 3 shelves. I rotated the orchids weekly to help share the light :) It's not perfect but it sure did help out the phals and oncidiums last winter! I'm planning on doing it again this winter.

Velamina I think what Jane was trying to tell you the chandelier above the table will do nothing for your plants. The window will give you the best chance of adequate light, the chandelier is wasting electricity.

Read the link below, it gives the light measurements using the 42watt CFL. The test was done showing the difference between contained light and uncontained light. Your chandelier would also spew light in all directions, not a focused beam.

Brooke

Here is a link that might be useful: CFL fc measurement

I agree with Brooke. Instead of CFL bulbs, I still use several fixtures of shop lights with 40watt (4') fluorescent tubes. These are hanging over a few plant shelves at the darker end of the greenhouse, mostly for seedlings and lower light orchids as well as a few high-light minis.

I grow Phalaenopsis and Paphs about 4" below the tubes, Pleurothallids about 6-8" below the tubes, and Sophronitis and some mini-catts with leaves actually touching the tubes.

What I am saying is that you only have to go a short distance away from the tubes (or bulbs) to lose most of the light. Fluorescent fixtures of any type would be useless at 28". You need to plan a way to get the light closer to your plants.

I understand now, I thought it was close enough.

My table is directly in front of the big window about 12 inches away, so sacrificing that window light was never an option for me. I can easily place it against the wall to bring the plants closer. If I use the windowsill I would have to seal any drafts with tape, and I wouldn't be able to open and close my windows during winter (which I do often for circulation).

I'm looking into the other options you guys mentioned to supplement with additional lighting and see what I can come up with. Brooke, I'm getting a cup of coffee now to read what you wrote (CFL fc meaurement). I'll need one for CJ's list of orchids as well (OMG!)

Here is a link which might prove helpful for adding light to the area in a free standing manner.

This is the fixture I used in the FC link giving the difference between directed light and undirected light. The CFL was a 45 watt equivalent. I used three of these in my display area which measured 2x4' in front of a ESE window.

This floor lamp is not rated for any bulb above an incandescent 60 watts.

Brooke

Here is a link that might be useful: floor lamp

Brooke, what I LOVE about the lamp:

a) Overall height is 52" max, still slightly lower than my fixture which stands at 57" to 58" from the floor.
b) The flexible arm would bring light closer to the plants, and lighting is more focused.
c) At this price I could afford to add as many lamps as needed to increase area being lit, definitely buying me a couple of years if I don't go too crazy.
d) Wires are on the floor (yay!).

I thought of simply bringing my plants closer to the fixture which holds 3 bulbs as a temporary alternative. Let's forget for a second that the lighting needs to be focused. I would prop them up with, let's just say "shoe boxes" for example? I looked for a site where those bulbs would be available, and in addition to having read the thread on CFL, I'm gathering that these bulbs extend out more than regular fluorescents. Am I right in thinking they would not fit inside my fixture? I've provided some photos to make things easier. Also this is the link that I used for the cfl bulbs:

http://www.growlightsupply.com/grow-lamps-cfl-grow-lamps-c-6_44_59.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Fixture I and II

Adding CFLs to your overhead fixture would still be a waste of electricity because it is not directed towards your orchids.

The growlightsupply link is the same 42 watt CFL I used to take the FC measurements. You can pick these up at a big box store, probably cheaper.

If you get the Ikea lamp, you will need to add an extension to the hood to direct the light. The next size down CFL (26 watt?) would fit in the lamp without the extension but you lose valuable FCs with the lower watt bulb. If combined with a window, it would probably be fine for your 'chids.

Sorry, you are already beyond the crazy part because of looking for ways to care for your plants during the winter. Enjoy the ride :>)

Brooke

Yes, I've been known for fitting my size 7 foot into a size 5 shoe; those Nordstrum clearance rack sales are just too hard to pass up ;)

Brooke, it looks like I'll be visiting my favorite store soon to get the lamp you recommended. This will be a good solution for now. Thanks so much for the recommendation; it really made things easier. I will look into extending the hood of the lamp.

I appreciate everyone's input; indoor lighting for orchids is a science in itself and there was a lot of info to digest.

I've started my plants on systemic insecticide (unfortunately my choices are limited in NY and I couldn't get the ready to use Bayer which comes highly recommended). I also took advantage of summer sales and stacked up on really nice pottery (50% off), since I know how orchids can look when they are not in bloom. I'll be looking mostly for ones that have the nicest foliage for now.

My list of orchids is ready, and next month I will be visiting the orchid lady who is an hour away and I can barely understand ;D

Winter light is not necessarily brighter. It's actually weaker. But the winter sun drops lower in the sky and the light comes in at a much more direct angle than it does when it's high up in the summer. Because of this the plants get more light.

Hi orchid, because we live in the same part of the world what I've interpreted on the subject applies to both of us.

I'm not sure that the terms "brighter" or "weaker" are the proper terms. The only thing that I know is that the sun is closer to the earth during winter than summer, even if only a few miles. Additionally, even though days are shorter during winter, direct sunlight is much more concentrated because it is less dispersed (caused by clouds and humidity) at this time of year. If you take into account that solar energy is the same winter or summer, then it would make sense that we receive more energy during winter. But in all honesty, I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

All I can say with 100% certainty, is that I cannot survive without my shades in the winter ;)

Here in the northeastern part of the US in central New Jersey, the winter sun appears very weak and the days get short and we need all the light we can get. I push my plants up as close to the widows as I can get and take away all shading. This is the only way I can get the plants to survive, thrive and bloom. As it is, the days are getting shorter and shorter, ever since June 21. At an average of one minute a day, we've already lost 30 minutes.

Granted, there is a few week period where the sun is very bright in the fall, but as we approach the beginning of winter for the plants (from Thanksgiving to the end of January, with the shortest day of the year on Dec. 21 being the dead of winter as far as light is concerned) this no longer is an issue.

From that day forward the days lengthen, and the plants start to perk up.

I'm in Westchester, N.Y, and I apologize, when I said my 'shades' I was referring to my sunglasses.

In any event, we are talking about different things. As I said before, this is a subject I do not know much about.

I would like to use clear plastic pots (without placing them in decorative vessels), to improve their lighting situation (in addition to supplementing during the day with lamps). Am I on the right track in this train of thought, or does anyone feel that there would be no improvement or be of no overall benefit to them either way?

I was also looking at the oxygen core dual pots offered by Repotme. Initially I liked the concept, but am now skeptical about "roots receiving more oxygen" in this manner. Any thoughts on this being a "marketing thing"? Or do you think there is really something behind this.

" I was also looking at the oxygen core dual pots offered by Repotme. Initially I liked the concept, but am now skeptical about "roots receiving more oxygen" in this manner. Any thoughts on this being a "marketing thing"? Or do you think there is really something behind this.

velamina, each attempt that you make to aerate the roots of your orchids will hopefully meet with success. It's up to you to choose your method; many options are available.

--Stitz--

Orchid pots (with holes) make sense to me, when orchids are planted directly into the pot, without an insert.

The oxygen core pots I referred to create a space between the roots and the walls of the plastic pot, but I think after only a short amount of time it would just be a vacuum space. What is nice about using these, if in fact they actually work, is that ideally you would get a lot of light to the roots in addition to some circulation if you don't place these pots inside a vessel.

I have an option for getting more circulation to the roots, but I would be cutting out additional light. I could suspend the mesh pots, inserting these directly into the taller vessels that I have, and the sides of the inserts wouldn't touch the walls of the outside pot. At this point I don't know which would be more beneficial; more light or air to the roots.

Why not try the clear slotted pots. Best of both worlds and REPOTME carries these also.

Bob

"At this point I don't know which would be more beneficial; more light or air to the roots."

Light to the roots isn't essential to the growth of your plants. Plants frequently build layer-upon-layer of roots which effectively diminishes light.

--Stitz--

Westoh, I looked at those at the time that I was only thinking of inserts. Those would be ideal if they had a larger lip or rim with more width at the top so they could suspend from the pot without the sides touching the walls. That's why I flirted with the idea of using the oxygen core ones, but I agree that without using receptacles they would work fine.

Stitz, I'm glad that I will be able to use the heavy Long Tom Pots that I stocked from Restoration hardware. I also purchased a few traditional orchid pots from there, but I will be using the taller ones a lot more, with plastic inserts.

Tindara Orchid Supply sells the plastic air cone pots in all sizes. If I get the right fit, the "square inside the circle" will work and there would be some space there for the roots; plus I have the option of removing them if I want to take them out and take advantage of some more light.

Since I won't be needing the chandelier, I am now trying to see what I can work out by bringing them closer to my window (still supplementing with additional light)and using the window sill. I can fit many there, but what I end up compromising if I do this is the large trays with marble chips that I currently use for humidity.

But this is all a work in progress. I'm going to see about pulling my blinds all the way up and opening windows from the top rather than the bottom just in case I have to seal them. Finding narrow trays to put my pots in will be a challenge.

I feel like I have hope now for growing healthy orchids inside; I just have to keep going through each obstacle one by one. I'm sure I'll have many more questions before I'm through but I want to thank you all for your support so far :)

Sunlight has moved away from my porch much sooner than I thought and I have already brought them in. I am now stocked up on aircone pots in all sizes (I love those!). I also came upon a european website where they show plastic pots and have drilled holes into them. This will be a future project for me as well.

After reading advice on this thread and others, and all kinds of articles about lighting I realize how critical an in inch is and decided to use my windowsill (not my table as I originally planned). I am now up to 9 orchids and counting, and their 'noses' are pressed up to the glass. Orchid my blinds are all the way pretty much and my lr is starting to look like a small jungle :)

Brooke, I now have 2 Lersta lamps with what I believe are the proper bulbs, 42 watt "actual energy" cfl's. I'm very happy with my purchase, the price is great and it's a good looking lamp. I may have to get one more as I keep collecting, but I don't think I'll have more than 30 to 40 orchids because of space limitations (we'll see...).

I read in another thread that you mix tree fern fiber with Sphagnum for Lycaste; how do you like this mixture? I would like to try this for my orchids in the future, the ones that I'll be using 100% sphag on like the phals and maybe some others.

I'm currently working on the humidity as the trays are very space limiting and I want to be able to fit more on my window sill. I may also be able to expand that space, another future project. I haven't forgotten about funneling the lights for better focus.

Velamina I use tree fern in all my sphag plants. The fibers keep the sphag from packing around the roots.

I do a lot of different flasks and put them all in the sphag/tree fern. I haven't found anything that didn't like the mix. This mixture is used for most genera until they hit a 4 or 5" pot.

Good luck with your lights, your plants will love the additional light in the dark days of winter.

Brooke

I'm coming in late but wanted to share what I have used for lights to help my plants get through winter. BTW, I live in Westchester Cty also...welcome!

I bought these lamps in Target and Home Depot probably 5-6 yrs ago. They work pretty well and get the plants through the darkest days. However, you state you are a decorator and fear these will not work for you. The plants in the photo were carried over winter in a small room with only a north window and these floor lamps.

{{gwi:182223}}

Not stylish at all, but functional.

I agree with Brook and also love tree fern and sphag. Last year I put some oncidiums and ondonts in the mix and they have done very well. I have had problems in the past with the roots rotting on me. Don't want to jinx myself, but so far everyone looks happy.

Good luck,
Jane

Brooke, if you use this mix for almost all your plants then that's good enough for me. I'll work on getting my tree fern soon. I'm excited about trying this mix and hope you're around when I do my first flasking. Don't worry it will be a while before I'm ready.

Jane, thank you for sharing this photo, it is worth a thousand words. I can see how humidity is going to be my biggest challenge here so far and you have that covered. I knew I would be adding a fan as well, and there it is :) Your lights look great; I am also an HD/Target shopper but I will look for any excuse to go to Ikea in spite of that dreaded LIE >:(

I only mention that I'm part decorator because I have seen plants coming out of milk or yogurt cartons too many times (and lots of other odd scenarios), and since orchids have so many requirements it's real easy for them to "take over" rather than blend in. I'm really not sure at this point how much control I will have, but I'll do my best and stock up on lots of cache pots to start. I was also trying to avoid lots of visible lamp wires which is why I like the floor lamps. I don't think I see a greenhouse in my crystal ball any time soon, but I'm okay with that for now :)

Thanks again for sharing, I'm glad we are neighbors. I noticed that you are zone 5-6 and I am lower Westchester, is this considered zone 7?

Your plants look healthy and happy, and if I'm not too shy I'll post a picture as I progress a little more.

I'm upper Westchester, Bedford area. A bit cooler because of the hills. We moved from our home of 40 years, six months ago and it is a major challenge growing in this new place. The photo was taken in a small office in the previous house. I only used that room during winter because it was the warmest room in the house. Most of my orchids lived in my living room which was all windows and had plenty of light but got quite cool. Certain plants need warmer temps, so I used a small office for them.

Orchids in flower make a beautiful addition to any room. I use Phals as displays in both my home and office. I only kept a few which are reliable bloomers and have nice form. I grow a few Twinkles which are small and look nice on my desk.

You should consider joining the Greater Westchester Orchid Society. They meet in Harrison. Great bunch of people with beautiful plants.

Jane

{{gwi:71458}}

Oxygen core pots actually work very well. I've been making my own versions of these for years and the plants really love them. Not only do they keep that area of air open but they also keep it humid. I've noticed much better root, and therefor plant, growth since I've been using these. Easy to make your own with plastic mesh pots inserted into another clay or plastic pot.

Beautiful photo Jane. I'm in Pelham and I was considering the GNYOS which is much closer, but Harrison is accessible as well. I thought I would wait till early next year as I would like to have a few contacts before joining. Thanks for letting me know about GWOS and may I send you an e-mail if I decide on that one?

Boxer great to hear your orchids love those pots because those are the ones that I stocked up on. If you have a drill handy you can line up a couple of holes on each side or at least 2 sides and use a thick drill bit. I will have to borrow a drill and I haven't done it yet, but I saw pictures and the pots looked flawless. I thought they were purchased that way until I read further. Anyway, as far as practical goes I thought it was a really good idea and the pots still look good :) If I get to it soon enough I'll post a photo.

speaking of the GNYOS,
what's the latest on the SHOW in early 2011?

I might attend for the first time, depending on the dates :) Luxury buses run from the DC area to NYC for ~ $10, an absolute bargain! I can "portage" a LOT of orchids on a bus!

Who wants to drive up I-95? Not me!

--Stitz--

I might need a bus deal just like that for N.C. :)

I have no info about the show yet but maybe someone else here does.

Stitz, I 95's no big deal. Drove it twice this summer, Virginia and N. Carolina. Very boring though.

Velamina, send me an email and I'll give you the link to the latest newsletter. Next meeting is at the Harrison Center on Tues, Sept. 14 7pm. They just moved there this summer. Hard for me to get there, its far for me. They always rented space in White Plains but the rent got too high. This meeting is on miniatures given by Jim Freeman. The club has vendors at the meeting and you can get supplies cheap. They always have an auction where you can win plants. Its a real eclectic mix of people and always fun.

Jane

The GNYOS show in 2011 will not be happening.

bummer.
what happened?

is there a future for this event?

Jane thanks a bunch :) You'll hear from me soon. I'm still not sure if I want to stay closer to home since my schedule will be changing drastically starting January.

Boxer I would be interested in knowing what happened to the GNYOS event as well.

On a separate note for any of you , I 'need' a Masdevallia rosea, probably v. 'alba' in the near future. Are there any other challenges besides humidity, and how would low humidity affect this species? Lighting and temperature might be fine unless someone knows otherwise. I'm thinking that pebble trays might not be sufficient.

They lack a venue and a sponsor. I don't think there will ever be another NYC show.

The challenge for Masd. rosea is temperature. I usually push the envelope on the masdie temps but this is one I've avoided because I can't even come close, winter or summer.

It is a definite cool grower.

Brooke

I don't see us living in snuggies so I'll scratch that one then. Thanks Brooke :)

Sorry Boxer I missed your post, thanks!

Hi. My winter humidity is in the teens to mid-20% range. In the cooler growing area, the temp is 58F all winter. In the orchid room, which has a door, humidity is slightly higher, and temps are low 60s-low 70s.

Many experienced growers have said often, humidity isn't as critical as we've been led to believe - the notion's an echo from the original British hot houses which were hot and moist, no matter the needs of the orchids.

This may still be controversial.

Regardless, the orchids here, which need intermediate conditions except for the 58F thing, do just fine.

As for winter light, you can check and see how many days each month have sunshine where you live. Here in Minnesota, I try not to think about how many are cloudy.

Sounds like you're doing your homework. Have fun!

Whitecat, thanks for posting. I don't think I will be growing anything challenging, just some nice plants and blooms (fingers crossed) so hopefully my pebble trays should be enough. It's nice to know that you're working with such low humidity, it's one less thing that I have to worry about. My biggest challenge will be lighting (and space!).

There are a couple of epi's and brassavolas that I really want, and as I keep adding more lamps I'll have to make sure they are strategically placed to get the most light. I would have liked to grow the masd. rosea, but there is not one location in my residence where I could even try, as an experiment.

This little one can take warmer temps. It blooms (is blooming now) on and off all year. Great little plant.
Masde. Rosemary.
{{gwi:142675}}

Beautiful, and the foliage makes a good looking plant when not in bloom. I called J & L but this hybrid is no longer available. I'm going to consider the Masd. Angel Heart which she highly recommended. I shouldn't have a problem keeping temps well below 85F and next year during the summer I'll make sure she's separate from the rest.

Now would be a good time to ask more specifically how Brassavola martiana and Epidendrum ciliare would fare under the cfl's that I'm currently using. These are next on my list along with this masdie as I continue to collect species phals. Thanks!

I can't comment on your other choices, however I have Angel Heart and it is more difficult to grow and bloom. Both plants are from J&L. Angel Heart is prone to fungal problems and is requires very cool temps. It has not grown well for me and both plants are grown in the exact same conditions.

Rosemary tolerates warmer temps and keeps growing and blooming. Angel Heart languishes.

I would not recommend it.

Jane

Thanks! I will pass on those :)