Cut it as high as possible.

There are several varieties of S.A. grass. You need to know what type you have. I have never heard of "Texas Common". Call the company you ordered from and ask them what variety they delivered.

The main dwarf varieties of S.A. include:
Delmar, Seville and Amerishade. These dwarf varieties should be mowed at/between 1.5 to 2.5 inches.

All other varieties should be mowed at 3.5 to 4+ inches.

So, although leaving grass longer is better for the all-around health of one's grass, does cutting it short cause it to propagate horizontally faster?

Im not sure, but it sounds good in theory.

I mow my S.A. Floratam at 4.25" year round.

Well,

I have several varieties of St aug and i can say that 'Sapphire' is much more dense than palmetto (and neighbor's Raleigh as well). I might have Floratam but nobody is willing to help me out on the identification. "Floratam" growing in my backyard has thick purple-reddish stolon that isn't quite comfortable to walk on barefoot but seems to be doing better than palmetto for some reason. It could be crappy soil in the back part of the backyard that is making Palmetto perform poorly but doesn't affect Floratam at all. I thought it might be SADV but it hasn't spread out beyond that area so I dunno. I plugged Sapphire in that area and seems to be growing fine. The mystery continues...

I think you have Raleigh since it seems to be the most commonly sold around here.

Seriously, you expected way too much too early from organic. You gotta give it 3-5 years....

There is really no NEED to mow that often. I mow around 4 inches and I could care less if i went 2 weeks without mowing. it doesn't even faze my grass. Heck, I don't even water my lawn every week if it doesn't rain for a week. I do it every 2 weeks if I feel like it. I just water it deeply and I'm happy.

If you want to improve greeness, go to animal feed store and get one or two bags of soybean meal and apply at the rate of 25lbs per 1000 sqft.

THEN spray a mixture of seaweed liquid, apple cider vinegar and unsulfured blackstrap molasses (from grocery store) via ortho dial at the rate of 2 oz. Figure 2oz of molasses per 1000 sqft(all ingredients are equal parts). COme back in 3 weeks and complain more that it's not green enough.

Hmmm... maybe my first post wasn't quite clear...

I'm not expecting miracles. And my greenness is great, thanks to two applications of SBM. I am quite happy with the health and appearance of my lawn.

My question was simply, "Does cutting St. A. shorter cause it to spread faster?" As I said in my original post, mine is greener and healthier looking than my neighbor's, but his is denser.

No big deal either way as I'm sure by next summer I'll have the best lawn on the block. And as far as mowing TOO much, I rather enjoy mowing twice a week. And it mulches better mowing twice. Plus, I'm just trying to follow the "1/3 rule."

I'll keep y'all posted. But honestly, no worries on my end. Just curiousity.

I don't think the height has anything to do with spreading, at least in my experience.

My grass is pretty much in the shade. Is there any difference between your shade and your neighbor's shade?

Wow. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I can't believe I missed that. Yes, his yard gets quite a bit more sun than mine.

Cool. Now I can quit thinking I could be doing something better.

Thanks!

I have followed the information given here with great success! My St Augustine looks better than ever and is continuing to improve.
I am in Southern Californis (L.A. area) and my lawn is slowly heading towards dormancy,so my questions are at this time:

Should I continue to apply Soy Bean meal?
The mixture that Lou describes,i.e., Seaweed liquid et al,when and how often should it be applied?
Is the mixture 2 oz's of each item, then spray applied?

Thanks for all your great help and advice.

Baidarka

baidarka: It is always nice to get reports like that. I'm not sure what methods you're using but it is just nice to hear from people without problems no matter what methods they use.

Regarding dormancy: I have found that if I continue to water my lawn every week, all winter, it never goes dormant. I learned this over several years by watching my neighbors and asking questions. I thought they were fertilizing differently, but it was just water. The SA growth rate slows, but it remains as green as in the summer all winter. If you decide to continue to water, then yes, continue fertilizing.

I guess I should ask my standard question of people claiming to be from the LA area. Where are you exactly? People from Big Bear Lake, Palm Springs, and all the way to Santa Barbara claim to be from LA. I grew up in "the area" and know that the growing conditions around "the LA area" cover the entire spectrum. If you live near the coast (within the coverage of the standard "late night and early morning low clouds - burning off at eleven"), then I don't think you have to have dormancy. However, if you live back past San Bernardino or Riverside, then you might have to work a little harder. If you are up in the mountains or the high plateau, then it probably will go dormant.

Baidarka-

It's just something I came up with to save $$$ by buying each individually. I usually do it whenever I put down fertilizer like soybean meal every 3 months. I use ortho dial set at 2 oz rate. I fill the whole container (32 oz total) with equal parts of molasses, seaweed,hydrolysate fish and apple cider vinegar and just spray on the entire front yard. That's what I did last night to see if there's any improvement in the color of my st augustine lawn. If not, it's still great way to feed all kinds of microbes in the soil. Gives a big boost to population growth speeding up improvement in the soil.

Dchall,

What was the coldest you've experienced and your neighbor's lawn still stayed green? Are you sure you are in Zone 8, not 9?

Thanks for the responses as usual very helpful.
The So.Cal area I live in is the San Gabriel Valley in Glendora, so I am midway between the coast and San Bernardino.
This lawn in the past has had marginal care with a winter time over seed of Rye Grass to keep the green color and the overseed seemed to impede the stolon activity,but now it is "truckin" right along,holes filling in etc.and with the application of fertilizer and soybean meal and cutting only 3" it has vastly improved,a nice cushion and color.
DeHall,I have followed your application schedule and fertilize after cutting and water in well and then the following week,cut and apply soybean meal,both at about 30 lbs+- per 1000 square feet.
The coldest it normally gets here in the valley is 32 +- degrees and then the sun.
Hopefully the Seaweed will be available at a local nursery and I guess one container (32oz) per 1000..........
Thanks again,
Bruce

bruce,

That's pretty mild winter you got compared to mine so yours should stay green round year with no problem. Overseeding st aug with rye grass can really impede with st augustine growth so don't do it again from now on. In fact, it is not recommended by turf experts at all. It would be interesting to see if watering once a week during the winter will keep your lawn green as long as it doesn't get very cold. My mom lives in Houston (zone 9) and it rarely ever gets to freezing temp and st augustine stays green round year.

30lbs of soybean meal per 1000 sqft is pretty heavy. You can get by at 15lbs per 1000 sqft. In fact, I'm scared to use that much on my grass which is probably the most aggressive lateral spreader variety on the market.

Try mowing at 4 inches through the winter. It might help stay green due to less intensity light. Worth a try.

Ok ,I will lighten up on the Soybean meal,and go to 15 per 1000 and try 4 inches of height.
I do water once a week in the winter,unless it rains here YEAH SURE !! :-))
It is supposed to be fall here and I have had more stolon activity than ever before. I fertilized 2 weeks ago with 24-4-4 and then soybean meal and both front and rear lawns are still active.
Regards and Thanks,
Bruce

I applied the "Magic Elixir"(Nov 9th) as suggested , in the proper mixture, and I am looking forward to the results. Is their any time frame for viewing results?I also gave the azaleas a little foliage feeding of the same mixture.
I am curious as to the components and their interaction and why these three are part of the formula.
Regards,
Bruce

Lou: I'm sort of chuckling...your mix reminds me of Jerry Baker. "Into a hose-end sprayer put one cup of shampoo, one cup of Dr Pepper,...." Except I agree with your mix. Your's sounds useful. I would leave out the vinegar as a foliar spray, though. Why do you use that?

Regarding my zone: San Antonio is split across zones. Toward the north of town, where all the growth is, there is an "escarpment" where the elevation rises noticeably. Downtown it is low adjacent to the river but it rises fast out of that. The lowest parts of SA are probably more than a thousand feet lower than the highest parts. Anyway we don't get the cold like they do up north (5 miles away). Our past many winters have all had low temps in the high 20s. The lowest we've had since I have been there was 9 degrees F with dips into the teens being more like a once-in-five-years event. Maybe that will happen this year. When it gets below 25 degrees downtown (in the lower parts of the city) we consider that to be pretty bitter.

baidarka: so you actually do live in what I could call the LA area; but you are just out of the daily early morning fog region. You actually have relatively dry conditions and higher temps compared to downtown and west of downtown. I have found that my SA only gets happy enough to make lengthy of stolons in the spring and fall. Summer and winter are pretty quiet...stolonwise. But during the happy times it will send stolons out 5-10 feet at a shot. You should be looking at rainy season in January through Feb depending on El Nino. I remember growing up in Riverside, their road building budget would kick in on January 1st. Being a holiday they started Jan 2. They would no sooner get the holes dug and they would promptly fill up with rain. The streets were muddy and torn up with no work going on until the end of Feb when the rain quit. That was as predictable as forest fires in the fall with the Santa Ana winds.

Hi dchall,
Yes the Glendora/Azusa area is about midway roughly between L.A. and San Bernardino/Riverside and we get fog here but not quite as heavy and the temps also run midway here in the San Gabriel Valley as compared to the total region.
Some of the bare soil areas have some lengthy stolons and the blades are a nice healthy green.
This board has been a great help as this lawn was a little rough,but now in the process of recovery.
My sequence of events are:
Cut, and then fertilize.
Cut, and then apply soybean meal.
Cut, and then apply the "Magic Elixir".
We shall see what happens,but the lawn color is even and green,still a little yellowish tinge,but not the way it was.
Regards,
Bruce

Bruce-

I'm confused. You do know soymean meal is fertilizer, right? I'm not sure what you meant by Cut, and then fertilize. Any reason why you used synthetic fertilizer 24-4-4? It kinds of defeats the purpose of organic lawn program.

Hi Lou,
I had some 24-4-4 left over and used it and considering the shape the lawn was in I used both.I like the soybean meal but I am still not sure of its over all qualities as I have only used it twice.The inorganic will help with the pre emergence until the lawn shapes up.
What about the components in the spray application?

I CUT the lawn,then apply the material and then water it in with exception of course of the spray....so far using all three very good results and the lawn is coloring up nicely.
After reading the postings I gathered that the soybean meal enriches the soil, activates root activity and develops it's own fungus to combat SA fungus and was to be used in conjunction with fertilzer.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce,

Have you ever used compost recently? you can't expect quick result from soybean meal. It might take 3 weeks for it to work and it won't be dramatic green up like you'd get from synthetic fertilizer. The point of organic lawn program is to improve soil (nutrient cycling), more disease resistant, keep harmful insects under control and it goes on. You just have to be patient. It could take several years to get to the optimal level.

Synthetic pre-em can disrupt nutrient cycling by killing protozoa and nematodes. They act like fertilizer spreader by eating bacteria and fungi releasing nitrogen and other nutrients. You might have to spread good quality of compost at the rate of 1 cubic yard per 1000 sqft to re-introduce fungi, nematodes, protozoa and bacteria into the soil to get the ball rolling. Basically light dusting on the lawn and just water them in. All you have to do is apply soybean meal at the rate of 15-20lbs per 1000 sqft every 3 months to keep feeding the microbes in the soil to continue and improve the soil. Soybean meal is fungi meal. It has good amount of protein that will be used to fertilize lawn, trees, etc. Synthetic fertilizer has salts that can ruin microbes in the soil. it's like pouring salt on snail.

The spray application I came up with will greatly help for the first few years to improve nutrient cycling. They are food for microbes in the soil. Molasses is basically food for bacteria. Fish hydrolysate and Seaweed liquid are fungi food.

I think the biggest problem is that we lack enough fungi in the soil. it is very easy to grow large bacterial population in the soil but not fungi. It just takes time. Over time, you will notice that you will water significantly less frequently because of larger fungi population. They are like sponge with all the holes in the ground. They will be able to absorb more water and hold them longer rather than letting them drain away. I've routinely gone 10-14 days before I've had to water again during the summer if there's no rain. And that's on rocky soil. I can imagine that I'd go 2-3 weeks easily if I had lived on clay based topsoil since they hold more water.

A book called 'Teaming with Microbes' by Jeff Lowenfels is a good book to learn about organic practice. It's just not for lawn but how to maintain trees, garden, etc. They have different needs.

Hi Lou,
Once again great information and the in-organic vs. organic has become a little clearer.
In a previous post (oct 3rd)you advised someone to ".......... apply your mixture and then come back in 3 weeks if it isn't green enough............." so I am confused with your latest post of "years" for results. I have already seen some visible change in color and stolon activity.
I also have I believe, two different SA varieties,someone filled in an old rose bed with SA after the first lawn was put in.This variety has a little wider blade and tends towards a blue cast,looks fine but is different,any ideas as to which variety it may be?

My Regards,

Bruce

Bruce,

I tried to make a point in that thread that people expect too much from organic program too early. You can use the mixture to speed up soybean breakdown and improve color more quickly.

Let me try and think how to make it clearer... how about more "sustainable" with significantly less input from us after 3-5 years? Meaning they are pretty much on their own once the soil is much improved. Microbes can manufacture enough nitrogen to provide grass, hold a lot more water, rely more on rainfall (except drought where you have to water). Insects are controlled. Much less likely to get lawn disease. And so on. It takes a while to get there.

I have at 3 different variety of st augustine that look different from each other - Sapphire, Palmetto and Floratam.

What does the stolons look like? Thick, red-purplish stolon? (Floratam) or thin green stolons (Palmetto) thin purple stolon (sapphire)? You live in California so I am not sure what is commonly sold there.

Upon careful scrutiny it appears as though the majority of the lawn is Palmetto and the other area is Floratam and the Floratam is sending stolons out into the Palmetto.It most certainly makes for an interesting pattern,not really visible from street/eye level but if viewed from above it's obvious.
Thanks,
Bruce

You are not alone. Floratam is overtaking Palmetto in my backyard. It is very obvious when you stand in the lawn looking at them. Two very different looking st augustine. Just to make things interesting, I plugged Sapphire in the backyard and see who wins out!

Is that what is commonly sold in south California?

In the So.Cal region the Palmetto is the commonly sold SA.I have cruised the neighborhoods and 98% of the SA lawns are Palmetto and almost all are cut way too short and have a pale yellow/green color caste.My lawn, thanks to this board, still has a nice green color,thick mat and is 3+" tall.Cant wait until this coming spring for the full growing cycle to kick in.
Did you plant the Floratam or did it just show up?
Regards,
Bruce

It came with Palmetto by accident apparently. The grass place said it's Raleigh variety but my neighbor has Raleigh and they don't look alike at all. They also said that they don't even grow Floratam where they are growing Palmetto. I have no idea. Maybe a mutant of Palmetto? Maybe it used to be a field of Floratam and they got rid of them to grow Palmetto and somehow Floratam survived? I didn't notice it when I installed grass in the backyard. It was about a month later when I noticed the difference in color and different growth characteristic where Palmetto is growing a bit lower while the other is growing a lot taller. Very obvious when you look at them. Oh Well. Better than bermuda...

"Better than Bermuda", you got that right !!......my Floratam covers the old rose bed and who knows who installed it but as you say , it has a different texture,etc.
What I notice is that the blade length and width are not as fine as the Palmetto,rather "stubby" and depending upon the light has a definite bluish caste to it.The mat also appears to be heavier and thicker.
And I know you said that it takes time,but once again I must say that the improvement in this lawn,its density,color and stolon activity has and still continues to show marked improvement over the last 8 months and the spray seemed to darken the color ,maybe just my imagination but.......
Regards,
Bruce