Perhaps an easier way to read the article.

Here is a link that might be useful: World Ark article

You know Kimm, the rangeland managers and stockmen I know highly value every square inch of pasture they have. It is common for much of these guy's pastures to have been in the family for generations. It is essential for these guys to use the best management practices they can just to make a buck from one year to the next.

Needless to say, it is well understood by these guys to care about their pastures and do their best with them. Farming is a business, in input can only be used if there will be. Benefit to the bottom line. Sometimes manure is not used because of the hauling costs.

Pasture land and the related animal harvest produces a net loss of nutrients and even organic matter in the soil. The Amish community prove that fact everywhere they farm, because they can not produce enough manure to replenish the pasture/crops harvested. Beyond that volatilization of nitrogen from manure causes even more net loss.

Most people do about the same thing.

not everyone uses the same terms.

And unless you phrase what you do in currently trendy language, you aren't doing it right...even if you do it the same way.

And then you have to justify what you do to people who are indoctrinated in two things....that their way is right AND your way is wrong. And they are more interested in converting you than hearing your side.

And they know they are right...after they, they learned all they know on the internet.

I tell people that if they want me to listen to what they know about how to do anything related to gardening, farming, vegetables or livestock, to give me two days. Give me two days, matching every hour I work, bending, squatting, kneeling, doing whatever it is I do. Then let us talk.

If you are willing to demonstrate to me that you are willing to learn, we can have a conversation. If you aren't willing to do that much, then I'm not wasting my time nor yours.

Strob, what do you have to offer? Keep it brief if you prefer, I won't be offended.

Let's start with the article referenced.

A guy makes observations about the land he manages, the wildlife that shares the land, and the economic output from it.

So far, that could be a lot of people.

And that would be my point.

People making common sense decisions about how to manage an output of production, be it milk or beef or hops, just isn't sexy or interesting.

However, if we call it sustainable management, add terms like nutrient dense...or any number of other trendy terms that quite frankly are more about ego than actually being good managers in any sense...then it becomes interesting.

So what happened to just making good decisions, based on observations?

I know the rest. My decision is not a good one unless approved by (whoever).

I understand where strobiculate is coming from. The need for changing common sense approaches to land management requires new words or redfining old words to make the propaganda work.

If they want our productivity to drop to the level of 3rd world countries they have to make us believe that there are enough recycled resources to sustain life.

In order to stop poisoning the planet we need to stop ALL fertilizer production rather than use it wisely and stop wasting it.

If "Most people do about the same thing" then why are grazing lands failing?

Strob, I agree, the world is full of snake oil salesmen, nothing new.

Observation and common sense combined with a multi generation track record, that's what I see out here. Overgrazing a pasture here to one of these guys would be stupid, drops productivity for years and the weeds go hog wild meaning costs to control the weeds and less grass to graze. Hello, these guys aren't dumb they know this stuff!

Kimm, are you implying there is a nationwide deteriorization of pasture land in the U S?

Farmers in all the areas I've lived are some of the most knowledgeable stewards of the land I've met. Their livelihoods depend on taking care of the soil and land, and they have an intimate knowledge of their farms and what is needed to sustain growth. The management practices used are intended to provide future generations with a quality environment for living and growing. I just have not seen the stereotypical farmer who overgrazes, overfertilizes or otherwise abuses the land. It would not be in their best interests, nor that of future generations. Grazing lands are also very carefully managed to insure that they are not overgrazed since the ranchers have a long-term outlook. I observe pastures and rangeland that have been grazed for generations, and still are in good condition, often in better condition than before grazing began. In some of the Amish communities I've been in in Pennsylvania, Ohio and New York, I've seen the magnificent pastures developed by sustainable farming methods. I have not observed that these lands are deteriorating; they are benefiting from the farmers' inputs. I may disagree with some of the political decisions made with respect to farming or ranching, but I am thankful that American farmers and ranchers are so capable and focused on the land and its bounty.
Renais

I see overuse and abuse of land in some small truck operations here. Heavy inputs of organic fertilizers, excessive rotary tilling, heavy cropping. I have tried to grow some catch-crops on such land - without a fertilizer application even weeds have a hard time.

One thing I have learned is one can kill land without the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides.

You're very lucky in the US to have such smart and informed farmers.

Here in my country, honest they're a bunch of greedy close-minded people who think they know everything and who use chemicals so much that whatever they plant grows as if on steroids. Our rivers and seas are invaded by algae because of the N leaching and those algae stiffle everything which needs light and oxygen. Then those algae die and are washed on the shores and rot and gass off and our taxes pay to get rid of them because the gas is a health hazard (already killed horses and dogs walking on the shores).

Not to mention the farms that raise hundreds of poor animals enclosed inside, fed with crap and antibiotics, and the heaps of manure polluting the water. And antibiotics not being efficient any longer because of this huge overuse.

On top of that the poor quality products are subsidied hence we tax payers have to pay when buying the veggies or meat, and also to subsidy the farmers' losses, and also to take care of their pollution. And in case you're informed then you don't want to eat that tasteless crap so you have to pay even more for organic local products.

I could go on and on, you're very lucky to have great farmers in the US, because here them and the fishermen are so stupid that they just ruin their own ressources and then they ask for government's money never thinking of the future.

Well I've been avoiding this thread because I have so strong feelings about farmers but there you go I couldn't refrain from ranting ;-)

Sustainability should mean that we are building the soil to maximize soil health.
Fertilizers in proper amounts and at proper times go a long way towards that end, especially in pasture and hay crop lands.

Because we have polluted ground waters with fertilizer and pesticides does not mean that we need to live without those tools, in order to be sustainable. We need to learn wisdom in utilizing what we have to work with, in a sensible fashion. :)

When they were building the railroads through the west, the gvt gave the railroads land along the right-of-way in a checkerboard pattern, the railroads later sold the land to farmers and ranchers. The railroads leading to the old mining towns went broke, they pulled up the tracks for scrap, but the checkerboard pattern of private/federal lands is left. I can drive up the old right-of-way, its pretty obvious what is federal land and what isn't.

These are marginal agriculture lands at best, thin rocky soils on steep slopes. The feds don't allow that many cow/calf units while the private land owners do what they want.

Just asked a couple of my rancher friends today what are the 2 most detrimental things to good pasture here, they both answered drought and overgrazing. No big surprise there. Folks here also periodically burn their pastures to control weeds and improve the resulting grass stand, it works very well when done right .

Maplerbirch, that was well put.

Francois, of course the farmers here suggest they care about the land but truth is they are just doing what they've always done, cattle pooping in the creeks along with the rest of it. Satellite imagery shows our lakes and streams with algae blooms from nutrient leaching.

Of course there are good operations but the vast majority are not.

I think graziers in general are better stewards than the row-croppers. However, the fact remains that the meat industry is driven by super cheap feed (corn and soy grown by those row-croppers on the best ground in the world), allowing graziers to make a living without destroying their land.

Fireweed: the vast majority wre not. On what do you base your claim? How many ranchers and/or farmers do you know well enough to sit down with and have a thoughtful, reasoned, sane discussion?

Did anyone actually read the article linked? None of the comments I see here indicate that.

Kimmsr,

I admit to have read the thread first (there were only 2 comments I think at the time) because comments are usually very interesting here on GW forum.

But I did read the article, twice, and I wondered whether it was a method that could be used in many places. The grass that grows better after having been tramped must be very strong grass, not grass I'm familiar with. Even my damned bermuda grass wouldn't resist such a treatment, and doesn't, since the way dogs and me use only twice a day on average is showing (dead patches, compacted clay). So I honestly didn't know what to say, and with no interesting idea to add for once I rightly chose to shut up.

Then of course I got carried away by my strong opinions about growers and farmers nicknamed Bounty hunters round here... that is, if the translation engine gave me the correct words, you know, those guys chasing wanted guys for the reward. Whatever, i won't get involved and bore you to death with my rantings about french farmers ;-)

Ok then, do the readers get some sort of reward ? Like, some nice flattering words from the educated posters, some sort of overtly sincere admiring words good for the ego and the self esteem ?