I think you answered your own question. I have one for you; why is it impossible to suck up the debris on the bottom of the pond?

Hi, Kathy. I started to write a response and realized that even with the link to your website you haven't given us enough information to help you. In ten years you must have made a great many changes that are not in the description or if they are, we would have to read the whole thing in order to figure any of it out. So I'm going to ask some questions and hopefully we can give some advice. I hope you don't run into a problem with the forum rules. Advertising or selling your own products is a no-no. I'm sure they will let you show the photos and the descriptions but I'm pretty sure they will frown on the books.
First, give us an idea of the dimensions of the pond, how much water it contains, the depth, the source of the water, and how many gallons of water does that submerged pump handle? What is the current lining in the pond? I can't imagine the black plastic bags have lasted this long. Have you covered the bottom of the pond with rock? Do you have a filtration system in place? Do you have a bio filter? Do you have a way to clean out dead leaves etc. Do you have a test kit for the water and do you use it? Is algae still missing and do you have a UV filter? I know it seems like a lot of questions but it really isn't if you want to get that lovely pond in balance and running again. Sandy

I went to the link on your page where the construction was explained. So the original pool liner is there, covered with black plastic....right? The problem you have is that you are trying to duplicate nature in an unnatural way. A natural pond has a constant exchange of water. Fresh in, old out....all the time. You have trapped water. And to make matters worse, there is also a possiblilty that the black plastic has worn out and is allowing water to seep in between the plastic and the liner. The trapped water, along with the rotting debris in the bottom of the pond are creating the perfect environment for the formation of hydrogen sulphide gas. If a gas pocket breaks loose, the inhabitants of the pond will die almost instantly. A liner pond cannot be allowed to fill with rotting leaves and debris or an unhealthy environment begins to develop. The foam on the pond is the result of rotting material in the water. the only way to eliminate it is to clean the pond. Ponds that contain koi or goldies (and I know your pond does not have these fish) need to be completly disassembled and cleaned once a year. A natural critter pond like yours would not need to be cleaned that often, but it DOES need to be cleaned. Sorry...that's probably not the answer you wanted, but that pond needs attention before you have a serious problem.

Thank you ccoombs1. You said it much nicer than I wanted to. I am curious about how the pond managed to stay healthy as long as it has. By all rights it should have crashed the first spring after construction and should have been stinking to high heaven. Is the pool liner one of those that contains a biocide that might have slowed things down? In the photos I see riverbed stone on the beaches and wonder if the bottom is covered with rock which would make the problem even worse. Sandy

Kathy, I really like the photos of your pond. It is one of my favorite types of water feature. Your passion is clear and your effort to provide information about the environment is a nice part of that.

ccoombs1 hit the nail on the head with your problems. Nearly everyone makes mistakes large and small in building and maintaining their ponds. Fortunately, most ponders are ready to help rather than to judge. Take stock of what you have, thoughts and tips already shared, and come back and post questions and you will have a happier, healthier pond during the coming season I'm sure.

You have a great base to work from - good luck.

Mike

Unless Kathy has been answering all of the above questions by email, it appears that she has asked for some help, but has been unwilling to answer some very relevant questions that have been posed by people who are trying to help. Is it just me, or does anyone else find this a little rude? Every post above, except for mgeca, has asked for more information, yet none of the questions have been answered.

I apologize for trying to hijack this thread, but it looked finished to me anyway.

Unfortunately Larry, that seems to be the way of a number [NOT all, thank goodness!] of people who seek out information on this and the other GW forums.
They either do not give enough information to begin with or do not follow-up with requested information or even post back with a "Thank you", after well meaning people have taken the time to try and assist them, with their problems or questions.

Is it rude?...yes it is, in my book!
Tragically, that seems to be the way our society is going, politeness, manners and social graces are disappearing fast these days.
It is a pity!
"Horton"

THANKS so much everyone! I apologize for not answering. I thought I had set this site up to notify me when anyone posted responses to my questions, and I NEVER got an email. Finally today I came back to the site...

OK, I will try to answer questions. First off, I THINK the problem may be due, at least in some part, to my accidentally pulling all the underwater elodea out of the pond back in the winter of 2003. My Mom had just died and instead of 'pruning' the elodea, I was angry and just yanked at it, thinking that I was just breaking off the upper branches. Instead, when the water settled, it was all gone. Until then things had gone, well, swimmingly! I used the formula of covering 2/3rds the surface area with floating/emergent vegetation and 1/3 the area with underwater plants. That worked wonderfully, but I can't get elodea to grow in the pond now! I've tried restarting it every single year and it just dies on me. ...and I'm even getting it from a nearby pond whose elodea was a start from mine! My pond's water is very acidic as our well water is very acidic. I've wondered if that was the problem, but the water was acidic when I started and the elodea grew well then! And, my friend's pond where I'm getting the 'replacement' elodea is acidic too.

The pond is ~24 X 20 feet with a deep end of about 3' and shallow edges (preferred by all critters). My pond still has the swimming pool liner under the black plastic (not the thin plastic of plastic bags, it's PVC sheeting). The swimming pool liner was at least 15 yrs old and one of the reasons I wanted to get rid of it was I kept having black algae growing on it and it was a pain to scrub off, so I'm not certain if it had any algicide impregnated in it or not.

I waited 6 years to start cleaning the pond from when I started it; I wish I'd started at 3 years because by 6 years the muck was nearly 6" deep. The reason I waited so long is because the dragonfly and beetle nymph hide in the muck at the bottom of the pond during the winter. I'm passionate about dragonflies, having become an author and lecturer on them because of building a pond and learning about them and discovering how little was known about them. (I apologize for having to mention this - it's not advertising here, it's to let you know what my pond is all about). I've tried to drain the pond each year of the last 4. But I've had a problem: the pond has a leak, and finding it is impossible - because of the high water table in the winter, water starts flowing INTO the pond when I drain it and I can't tell exactly where it's coming from because of the dual liners. I would not recommend using plastic PVC sheeting to anyone else who was converting their pool to a pond for this reason. When I suck up the debris off the bottom, it goes into a children's wading pool and I check for 'critters' there before allowing the water and silt and debris to be just thrown away.

Yes, there are rocks on all of the bottom of the pond. I had to add them to hold down the PVC liner when I built the pond. And, they are the perfect place for critters to hide, but it does make cleaning the pond much more difficult.

There are ~2400 gallons of water in the pond and the waterfall pump recirculates 550-600 gallons an hour. There is also a small 'frog spitter' in one shallow end. The source of the water is our community (6 house) well. Because of the leak, we have a constant drip going into the pond. The water is very acidic (pH of only 5) and non-treatable. We have had several large water companies TRY to neutralize our water over the years, to the expense to the community of about a thousand dollars, so I really can't change that.

The only filtration is that we have the pump in a bucket with a sack of river rock over it and a layer of filtration medium over the top of the bucket. I have to manually clean the filter every couple weeks.

There is no foul smell of sulfur or anything, just lots and lots of little bubbles forming on the bottom that then is 'pulling' the debris up with them when they come to the surface, usually in the early evening. Also, the Pacific Tree frog eggs are dying - they just start to develop and then turn fuzzy white (mold?). I fear I have some pretty serious problems!

Anyway, I feel like I'm baring my heart here, and I sincerely apologize for appearing rude - I just thought I was going to be notified when anyone posted an answer to my question. I know this group is WONDERFUL and it helped me before when my pump broke and folks, within 7 mins, told me to float the floating oil that came out of it off the pond. I want you to know that I recommend this forum in the talks I give about building wildlife ponds.

I guess I'm hoping that I won't have to take this pond completely apart and start again. For so many many years it was perfect, and it's been OK the last 4, but after I tried to muck it out this year, it just got worse!

Kathy Biggs bigsnest@sonic.net

Here is a link that might be useful: Bigsnest Wildlife Pond.

Hey Kathy, I am afraid you may not like what I am going to say but I don't know any other way to do it. There are several things going on in your pond and it may take some time and effort to correct them. The first thing is all the debris on the bottom of the pond. In a natural pond the contact of the water on the soil of the bottom and continuous movement of the water gives the pond breathing space. Even in a fishless pond, oxygen is essential. When available oxygen is used up in breaking down the debris, you wind up with a dead or dying ecology. The beneficial bacteria dies and anerobic bacteria thrives. Those little bubbles are methane. It's highly toxic to animals and plants. That includes you. Don't work in still air. I am putting a site below that will show you some of the microscopic critters found in a healthy pond. The critters that grow in a fouled pond are not nearly so beneficial. I suggest as you work to clean up the pond you make use of rubber or latex gloves and be certain to avoid contact of the water with any cuts or scrapes. Be sure you do not get any in your mouth or eyes.
Apparently you have been using a commercial service to test your water. Please, purchase a complete pond and aquarium water test kit and use it. Don't use those strips that are often sold in place of them. For the most part, they are worthless. A decent test kit can be purchased for around $30.00 and is one of the most important things you need for healthy water. I'm pretty sure someone else will come along and discuss how to use it. It can tell you all sorts of things about the general health of the pond. Since you would be testing the pond rather than the source of the water you really don't need a professional to do it. If you decide to test the water from the source, simply collect a small sample of the water to test. A cup should be adequate.
It is most likely the elodea won't grow either because the PH and water hardness is out of whack(Don't you love my scientific terminology?), or there is a bacterial or fungal agent contaminating the water (very possible since you don't have sufficient oxygen in the water), or there is a snail or other critter feasting on it. The easiest way to tell is to examine a sample under a microscope but you can often tell by just eyeballilng it. When the PH and KH are wrong, the stem and petals may become brittle and just appear to come apart after turning yellow or orange. A bacterial or fungal problem usually causes slime, discoloration, and collapse of plant tissue. Too little oxygen adds to this problem. Testing for nitrates and nitrites will show this problem as well as expose excess fertilizer or rotting junk in the water. Snails or other critters eat chunks out of the stems and petioles. Roots rot before they get a good start. Most of these problems can be cured with sufficient biofiltration. That means you need a larger pump with a larger filtration mass, with lots of surface for the good bacteria to inhabit. A waterfall is good because it increases the turbulance that helps oxygenate the water. There are a number of ways to set up a biofilter. I happen to use a Skippy filter. Others use vegatative filtration, Adam's filters, gravity feed filters, etc. Once again, someone will come along and be happy to discuss that with you once you have read about them enough to know what language you need too know, LOL. It isn't hard. It's just that there are lots of ways to do it and every one has their own favorites. You can do a search on this forum or google Skippy's filter, Adam's filter, etc.
Start removing the debris from the bottom. One layer of liner is best so you don't trap dirty water that eats up oxygen. Be careful you don't inhale too much of the gases that will be released. It replaces oxygen and you could suffocate very quickly in still air. In fact, I would put a big fan out there to keep it moving.
Since you know you have a leak, you might consider replacing the liner entirely if the leak is too difficult to repair. The most commonly used material around this forum seems to be 45 mil EPDM (the same stuff used for rubber roofs and innertubes) but some like PVC or Bentonite or other materials. Each of them has their own benefits and drawbacks and some of them are quite new and can be expensive. Once again, a subject to discuss later. One forum regular loves to have moose come to the pond. I have a regular flow of nocturnal visitors including a muskrat that loves to swim laps but he doesn't stick around because my pond doesn't have a food supply for him.
I've probably given you too much to digest in one sitting so ponder about this info and then start asking your questions. Sandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Ron's Pond Scum

I agree with most of the above. I disagree about the test strips however. I use the Mardel 5 in 1 test strips that test the following things.
1. alkalinity. This is critically important to control pH. Add baking soda to bring it up to at least 80 PPM.
2. hardness. I like to see some hardness to guarantee availability of calcium and magnesium, which are important plant nutrients.
3. nitrate. I like to see some nitrate to provide nutrient to the plants. Having some nitrate (and potash) helps your plants use phosphate.
4. nitrite. This will always be zero if you have a decent biofilter.
5. pH. This will always be OK if your alkalinity is over 80 PPM. If your alkalinity is good just ignore the pH.

The biggest advantage to the test strips is it is easy enough that you WILL TEST YOUR WATER. The fact that you test your water trumps any slight inaccuracy. The test strips give you all the information you need.

Many of the posters on this forum, including myself, have problems with the strips. There are many things that can affect their accuracy. I can't even get them to work in an aquarium. Exposure to the air, moisture, temperature, age and no expiration date on the package are all things I ran into. I paid a lot of money for them until I found out the strips had been on the shelf in the petshop for more than a year because they didn't have many customers for fish related products. They ordered things from a warehouse when they ran out of inventory. Who knows how they were kept in the warehouse? I test weekly with the kit except when there is ice. Sandy

The Mardel strips do have an expiration date. They also have a small silica gel pack in the bottle to absorb moisture. Yes, you do have to be careful to keep the bottle closed, and I make sure my fingers are dry and clean when I get a strip out. I am also very careful to not touch the pads. I find the strips to be consistent throughout the shelf life of the package. Maybe you should try another kind of strips, or another warehouse.

I confess I'm kind of lazy. A thirty second test seems about right to me. I have used other tests and generally find them time consuming and not better in any way that matters to me.

You certainly might have reasons to prefer the other tests, but I think "worthless" is way too strong a way to express your preference.

I would pump out all the water; replace the liner and get rid of the rocks. From then on you should vacuum once per season (after the dragonfly nymphs leave). I highly recommend 45mil EDPM as was already suggested.

I would not recommend completely emptying the pond once per year to completely clean it out, just keep it clean as you go with a regular maintenance routine including partial water changes.

I don't know what to do about you high water table, but I would not put lots of rocks on the bottom.

You need a bigger filter system, a stronger pump, and more water movement. Also, as already suggested, some type of bio-filtration.

One other thing - if you don't have one invest in a skimmer net and use it frequent or get a skimmer type filter. One big pump can probably do it all for you.

Thanks again everyone.
I will ponder all this ;-)
I do have a good test kit (I have indoor aquariums).
I do use a skimmer net on the pond - daily!
The elodea turns mushy, gray-brown and falls apart.
I hope to report back at some point....

Another question: Moose hoofs won't hurt the pond liner?
I have another pond at our mountain home we're building. It was under 3 feet of snow when I last saw it, but, it looked to be empty and I had seen cows in the area just when we left last fall. I fear their hoofs have put a hole in the liner.

Thanks again, I will instigate some changes.
Kathy Biggs