In my opinion, the fungal and bacterial content of the soil IS THE ORGANIC MATTER of concern. The mulch you lay on top of the soil does little more than moderate the temperature and moisture content of the underlying soil unless it is pumped up with more protein (always found in organic fertilizer). The protein feeds the fungi and bacteria.

Inasmuch as mulch is not normally a great source of protein, in that sense, you could apply a lot more mulch than is going to do any good toward improving your soil's organic matter.

For me the fungus and bacterial colony formation is enhanced by adding some sources available at lesser cost from feed mills. Feed mills are slightly cheaper than feed stores
I use alfalfa pellets 9 dollars for 50 pounds,
Corn meal 10 dollars for 100 pounds.
Soya bean meal is expensive; I have not used it so far
Rabbit chow 25 pounds for 5 dollars
Dry molasses apart from sugar they also have protein from grain -25 pounds for 5 dollars.
One can see fungus with in a week

Organic matter, in the soil, feeds the bacteria and fungi that make up the Soil Food Web which digests that organic matter and coverts that OM into nutrients the plants you grow in that soil can use. Dr. Alex Shigo's research, while head of Research at the USFS, indicates that vegetables and flowers prefer a soil that is dominated by bacteria while shrubs and trees prefer soils dominated by fungi. The link below will connect to an on line Primer by Dr. Elaine Ingham.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Soil Food Web Primer

How does one achieve a soil that's dominated by bacteria? Or is that included in the soil food web primer link?

Maybe this is why the Central Valley of California has a few trees and not much else, the soil, during the summer is too hard and dry to support bacteria.

HFO, you encourage soil bacteria by providing them a suitable diet and environment. And yes, this is included in the Soil Biology Primer.

Depending on what you are growing, a soil that has a relatively even ratio of bacteria to fungi will support the widest range of plant material. Cropping or the growing of harvestable crops may require some adjusting.

dchall, you've made the statement several times that protein is what is needed to feed the soil organisms and that applying anything else is pretty much a wasted effort. My study and understanding of soil biology is that the huge variety of microorganisms present (or to be encouraged) need a whole range of energy sources including sugars, carbohydrates, starches, as well as proteins. All of which are included in OM, which is typically obtainable at little or no cost. And some organisms need none of this at all, able to create their own food sources. I'd appreciate if you could direct me to some sites that would elucidate this concept, as it appears to be a rather narrowly held point of view (based on my research) and doesn't seem to consider the larger picture of a well-balanced soil.

Dr. Alex Shigo, retired as Chief of Research USFS and recently deceased, found that where woody mulches were dominant, ie. in forests, the Soil Food Web is predominately fungal while where vegetative mulches were dominant, ie the vegetable garden usually, bacteria were the predomiant Soil food Web critters, his research also found that trees and shrubs prefered this fungal dominant soil and flowers and vegetables prefered the bacteria dominant soils.

My experience is that most anything laid over the ground is a big help in improving soil. I use a lot of cardboard, because I have continuous access to it - and I figure on my garden is better than in the incinerator.

dchall, you've made the statement several times that protein is what is needed to feed the soil organisms and that applying anything else is pretty much a wasted effort. My study and understanding of soil biology is that the huge variety of microorganisms present (or to be encouraged) need a whole range of energy sources including sugars, carbohydrates, starches, as well as proteins. All of which are included in OM, which is typically obtainable at little or no cost. And some organisms need none of this at all, able to create their own food sources. I'd appreciate if you could direct me to some sites that would elucidate this concept, as it appears to be a rather narrowly held point of view (based on my research) and doesn't seem to consider the larger picture of a well-balanced soil.

I agree. When I started to use the term protein, nobody else did. And it really is the protein in corn, soy, wheat, flax, cottonseed, coffee grounds, fish meal, blood meal, feather meal, milk, and alfalfa that make them different from compost, peat, molasses, rock powders, and bat guano as organic soil amendments. The amino acids in protein are the way nitrogen feeds into the garden's soil food web and passes from one microbial species to another finally cycling all the way back to the plant kingdom. Besides protein microbes need not only sugars, carbohydrates, and starches, (somewhat redundant there) but they need vitamins, minerals, and enzymes. All that foodstuff is found in a diet of various ground grains. Blood and fish meal provide it too, but I'm not big on them. There is smell involved and that turns people against their use. Also there is an unknown (to me) method of application to keep from burning the plants and roots. I just stick to ground grains and milk.

I also think of compost piles in terms of not browns and greens but in terms of protein and carbohydrates. It wasn't until I made that connection that I felt I understood what was going on in a compost pile.

Dchall, are you concerned at all with the sustainability issues of using commercially-raised (with all that implies) grains, legumes, seeds etc as major inputs?

dchall, thanks for responding, but you didn't actually answer my question :-)

Let's put it this way - if I apply OM to my soils regularly (and this is OM in the conventional sense, including compost in various stages of completion, leaves, coffee grounds, clippings, cleanings from my rabbits' accommodations or other composted manures, etc., etc.) which I am able to gather or create for free, is this not supplying a sufficiently well rounded diet to the microherd? And keep in mind I am not running a farm here - just a typical suburban garden with a pretty wide range of mostly ornamental plantings (I tend to grow most edibles in containers). Certainly the health and vigor of the plants themselves indicate no shortage of nutrients and the appearance of the soil supports strong fertility and excellent structure.

Tell me why I need to add those grains. Better yet - and this is what I had originally requested - direct me to those citations that can explain to me why I need to add those grains and omit the rest. My own research has never turned up anything that lead me to those conclusions. I guess I want to know why you feel compelled to invest in these types of products to achieve the same results I (and apparently so many others) am able to achieve pretty much for free.

Dchall, are you concerned at all with the sustainability issues of using commercially-raised (with all that implies) grains, legumes, seeds etc as major inputs?

Not even slightly. I figure if the price is so cheap there must not be any shortages of the materials.

I like grains over composted materials for these two reasons:

1. Compost costs me $42/1,000 square feet plus a delivery charge of $45. So for my 3,000 square feet it would cost me $171 to fertilize. This is not to mention the back breaking labor (which I'm not saying I couldn't use more of) to apply it. Corn meal costs me $1.00/1,000 square feet including delivery (which I guess I have fun doing by visiting my local feed store). Cost is $3.00 to fertilize and my daughters and I make a game out of it.

2. Ground grains are really easy for me to get. I don't have rabbits, coffee, or much in the way of clippings. I do get leaves from the neighborhood to compost along with some horse manure from my daughter's stables to add to the compost, but still I only make enough for my wife to mulch around the plants - not at all enough for the turf.

I never said to omit the rest of the grains. I said I had some favorites. They are my favorites because of the reasons cited above. You are free to add (in descending order of nitrogen (protein) mass) feather, blood meal, hair, hoof meal and horn dust, leather (ground), crab (king, dried and ground), silt waste, silk worm cocoon, silk mill waste, shoddy and felt, sardine scrap, shrimp head (dried), fish scrap (red snapper), leather (acidulated), cottonseed meal, hare and rabbit waste, fish scrap (fresh), bat guano, wool waste , castor bean pomace, sludge (activated), jellyfish (dried), lobster (shell), gluten feed, lobster (refuse), pigeon manure (fresh), tea grounds, field bean (seed), tobacco leaves, felt hat factory waste, tobacco stalk, peanut (seed & kernel), cotton seed, cowpes seed, shrimp waste, powderworks waste, tobacco stem, alfalfa hay, crab (king, fresh), sunflower seed, egg, coffee grounds, cattail reed & water lily, wheat grain, oats grain, coffee grounds (dried), dog manure (fresh), crab (common), starfish, barley (grain), field bean (shell), seaweed, corn (grain). Notice that rabbit droppings and coffee grounds are on this list.

If its academic citations you want I can't help you. I only have access to what I can read on the open market and here on the Internet. "Adding organic matter" is about increasing the biomass in the soil. With that in mind I can direct you to the concepts of organic chemistry where it is pretty well known that in order to create biomass you need to consume protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals. If you also consume or create enzymes it might be possible to create biomass out of thin air using the nitrogen in the air to substitute for the nitrogen you would otherwise receive by eating amino acids (protein). For specific citations on the creation of biomass, I will leave that as an exercise for the interested reader.

Hi, would one just 'chuck' cornmeal, rabbit chow etc. right on the bed or do you put it on then mulch - with say leaves - or do the leaves first and then the 'meals'? I guess to be more to the point do you need to turn it in, especially at this time of year? thanks

From the last few Years I am using feed grain. We moved to a smaller home (empty nest), smaller garden and I am disabled and 65 year sold.
The feed mill is near by; I can get it my self.
I use corn meal, Soya bean meal Alfa Alfa cubes,, Use what ever I have.
First I added them in to the top 3 inches of hard clay soil. Added some dry molasses and gypsum.Also added a couple of bags manure from Lowe/ wall- mart.
Covered with straw and drenched the straw with liquid molasses and a week solution of fish meal.
Instead of using the see weed (kelp); I used Rabbit chow which got some added minerals and vitamins. Kelp meal is expensive and the local stores wants 78 dollars and by mail order it costs 59 dollars Plus shipping.
For mineral supplements I use red cell. A quart costs 8 dollars or less, with all necessary minerals and vitamins. This I use as a foliar feed and occasional drenching. Again it is available from feed stores.
This works me. Less labor. No tilling. No hauling. I agree my needs are different being only two.
My garden did well.I buy comost humus at fall close out sale. Usually 75 cents a bag.I buy fist emulsion at close out sale. Now it is selling at Lowes closeout at 2.85 a quart.

Local feed stores do not carry bony meal or rock phosphate.
I purchased Epsoma bulb fertilizer at close out sale 15 dollars for 25 pounds.
The only tools I have is a mini spade, a hand trowel, cobra head weeder, bulb planter and a rake.
Now I see 7-10 earth worms for a spade.

Well, you are certainly correct - the cheap price is a direct result of a grain-glut. Created by non-sustainable and destructive fossil-fuel based commercial ag.

Things are probably different in the arid southwest, but in most parts of the country turf doesn't need fertilizer to do well if leaves and mown grass are left where they fall. The resources given to lawns in this country would easily feed the populace, particularily if we composted our own bodily waste - or even just used all the urine to compost leaves.

As commercial ag collapses everyone will learn firsthand I suppose.

Will using rabbit chow as an ammendment, cause more rabbits to visit my garden?

pnbrown, so if I just keep adding leaves, compost, awesome black peat/humus from our pond, manure we should be ok. It all feels ok and we have tons of worms, but I've never tested the soil, but the freezers are full of produce, but then I hear this new talk - to me - about bacteria etc. and achieving that and can one achieve the bacteria/fungus with what I listed above or does one have to add something more. I do try to stay with less is best and trust that feel. thanks,

Below is a link to a message I just posted today over on the soils forum. As the first reply says, it's sort of hard on the brain; however, I find the subject to be interesting and related to this thread. It involves the man made incorporation of charred "biomass" (plants and trees) into the soil hundreds and thousands of years ago. The apparent effect is that the soil has remained exceptionally full of microbes (and fertile) while left unattended for hundreds of years.

I might also add that no protein was added over the thousands of years, so clearly there is more to good soil than "feeding" it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Terra preta

pnbrown, I have been watching this forum, but have not noticed a real solution for the transition from destructive, non-sustainable large scale farming to organic bliss....let me know. On the other hand, I have added protiens in the form of eggs to several types of soil and have seen excellent results. Just to the average guy, it seems the "microherd" is there in many different types of soil and just waiting for the opportunity to multiply. This is just the opinion of one person's experimental results...very little pier review. dchall, thanks for including eggs in your list, had not seen them in many lists before.

I don't think there is much doubt that pumping a bunch of protien into or onto the ground will stimulate a lot of plant growth. My question is merely how sustainable a practice can that be on a large scale?

I've read about "terra preta" in the book "1491". It's a quite interesting phenomenon, apparently. It's worth noting that so far this has been noted only in the tropics, where obviously certain conditions exist that do not in cold climates. Frost, in particular, might break down and interrupt and thusly prevent the peculiar process of clay particles and microbes adhering to charcoal and forming a sustaining and building cycle. Just a very un-informed and non-scientific opinion.

Nevertheless, I've witnessed that building cycles can be set under way in cold climate soils (which are also much more forgiving of mankind's machinations, fortunately for us). In particular, that the more a field is allowed to behave like a forest the better the performance is in a low or no-input scenario (highly sustainable). I don't mean to allow trees and bushes to grow rampantly, but to decrease the per-unit production (IOW, use more ground and sunlight to produce the same amount of food - a useful strategy in many parts of this country where much cleared or formerly cleared ground is available) so as to allow for much more of the bio-mass to remain and lay on the ground. In my experimantal plot I probably leave more than 95% of the produced bio-mass in place, along with some small inputs which more than compensate for the removal. Even without the small inputs I think the process would sustain and slowly build in fertility.

Sustainable practice? To feed the world? If we ever go to a situation where we control the recycling of absolutely everything that dies, including people, we might be able to sustain the recycling of protein. I don't really know. For my garden; however, it works for now.

I don't think it's nearly that extreme, yet. If we were'nt so wasteful of resources that could be used to grow food, and could thusly save vast amounts of fossil-fuel resources, we could quite concievably sustain the current population indefinitely.

The hindrance is that a much larger percentage of people would have be involved in agriculture in some way. Every suburb could be nearly self-sufficient in produce, at least.

Regarding sustainment: I have mentioned this many times on this forum, but I know several people who raise cattle with nearly zero inputs. Calcium is an input and a few other minerals that the cattle remove from the soil, but that's all. These ranchers use no seed, fertilizer, herbicide, insecticide, miticide, dewormers, hormones, antibiotics, or anything else. They don't even irrigate. They just add water troughs and the minerals (calcium and seaweed) and that's all. They have no trouble raising fat cattle on the grass that grows in Central Texas (not known for lots of rainfall). Because they have stopped using the -icides, their land has improved markedly and continues to improve as they increase their stocking rate. These guys carry twice as many "animal units" per acre as their neighbors because they have so much healthy, natural (native) grass. Meanwhile their neighbors are buying the latest and greatest seed every year, which of course requires you to tune up your fertilizer regimen and get rid of the weeds. They also deworm their cattle which kills the dung beetles which bury the dung down in the soil where they, and other creatures, decompose it adding fertility right where Nature intended for it to be. The "organic" guys have tall grass from fenceline to fenceline while the neighbors have scrub, rocks, washouts, and very little cash at the end of the year. This is not only sustainable (except for the calcium an seaweed) but extraordinarily profitable since the inputs are so small and the stocking rate is double. And I hear people all the time saying they're lying about this or that because you can't do it that way, but they do. If you go back to a system more like what Mother Nature developed, you can sustain the system and still profit from it. But in our arrogance we have to tinker with things, and it seems we are trying to tinker ourselves out of resources.

Yes, I recall your descriptions on that before, seems very sensible and creditable. I wonder why the minerals get depleted so much? The cattle are eating the grass, and then crapping it back out- a building cycle for insects and microbes. Periodically, some of the cattle bodies are removed from the site. So much minerals are embodied in the cows? Then the bones, hides and other excess should be returned to the land whence it came. Probably those portions of the animals contain most of the minerals.

Aren't new minerals gradually produced by the weathering of rock, pebbles, sand, etc? If the cow-bones were left on site and the meat removed didn't much exceed the natural release rate then near-total sustainability could be achieved.

dchal: thank you for your answer(Nov. 29) to my question. I confess, however, that I don't understand it. Doesn't the forest sustain itself with a leaf mulch? Doesn't the leaf mulch in my vegetable garden become part of the soil vey quickly? And doesn't it the become part of the soil organic matter, which is the home of soil microbes? And what could be a superior source of protein either in a naural system or in my garden? I know your words are learned, but I genuinely can't understand what they mean. Regards, Peter.

Frankly, looking back at your original question and my reply, I don't understand it either. The time it was posted would seem to indicate that I should have been thinking relatively clearly - maybe I was on my sinus medicine??? I'm looking for excuses now.

So no, I don't think you can overdo mulches.

In addition you can supplement your mulch program with the addition of protein. Natural sources of protein are dead animals, dead insects, dead microbes, and dead plant material. Mulches usually are higher in carbohydrates than in protein, but you can add ground up grains, which are high in protein. The highest is probably soy. The cheapest is the free coffee grounds you get at Starbucks. I'm going to get a bag of alfalfa pellets (rabbit food) tomorrow to fertilize my lawn.