Thanks for the info; I would love to learn how to bud roses!!

Many thanks, Kim. Very informative. On the flip side, do you think that there might be varieties that are so vigorious that budding would lead to "too much" growth? The reason I am asking is that I have a few Fairy Tale roses that are grafted on multiflora, which have become jolly green giants and much, much larger than I have anticipated. For example, although HMF says that Red Riding Hood should be around 26 inches tall, mine have stiff canes that are easily 8 feet tall. I moved my Golden Fairy Tale this past fall (which also have a few 8 feet tall canes) to the back of my yard, and was surprised to see how extensive the root system has become. On theory, would they behave more "normally" if on own root?

Annie Laurie McDonnell came to mind when I read this, Kim. It's healthy and putting out some tiny new leaves, but is growing at a truly glacial pace. It's probably time for another fish and kelp application.......

Ingrid

You're welcome! The Heritage Rose Foundation has an article on their web site Burling wrote for them, including photos of the procedure. It's actually rather simple and straight forward, and appears to be quite similar to how you bud Fortuniana. Burling prefers Pink Clouds as it accepts scions for her in Visalia most of the year. It roots easily, too. I can share cuttings of Pink Clouds if you're interested.

I doubt budding is the issue with the Kordes roses over growing their stated sizes. Many of the later Kordes roses are overly vigorous when unleashed in the US climates for the same reason many of the Austins are. They're bred from climbers and other more "vigorous" stock to be vigorous and cold hardy in harsh, short, cold climates. Once turned loose here where most of our conditions don't keep a lid on their vigor, they go wild.

Think back to all the wonderful reports from Britain about how New Dawn was such a mannerly, smaller climber to about 10' x 10' (thank you Mr. Beales!). I don't know about where anyone else is, but in my climate it eats houses. Same for many of the "smaller hybrid musks" such as Ballerina (3' - 6') and Robin Hood (4' - 5'). Here, both went well over the first story of the house the first year with Robin Hood producing two to three inch thick canes with wild abandon. Where the conditions stiffle that vigor and keep it in check, they remain the expected sizes. Grow them where the climate encourages them to "achieve" and that's what they do. I honestly doubt you'll find them significantly less vigorous own root unless your soil and water aren't to their liking and the stock is adjusting it for them.

If you're not expecting any freezes, Ingrid, Annie would probably appreciate a snack. I'd go for it. I'm not fertilizing anything here due to the lack of ground water and suspected buildup of salts from the irrigation. Even with plenty of water, most foliage is looking very tired and stressed. Kim

Thank you, Kim, for explaining the genetic background of the Fairy Tale roses. This might also explain why some of them do not repeat that well for me.

BTW, grateful for all of your clear, insightful postings, which have help me enormously. I might take up budding too just for the fun of it, and we have tons and tons of wild multiflora here for that (and a limitedless supply of RRD vectors as well).

My pleasure Farmerduck. You're welcome! Everyone interested SHOULD take up budding roses. Budding, like so many other pursuits (bread making, sewing, canning, etc.) has nearly become a lost art. We CAN do things like this as long as there is interest and time. They aren't really all that difficult as long as there is interest in doing them and someone is willing to share how to do it.

Very often, our issues with roses are simply they are unsuitable for the climate and conditions we force them in to. It's what I've called "growing penguins in the desert" for years. It's why so many old European garden roses are so terrible in my savannah climate and why so many Teas are so terrible (or impossible) in Upstate New York, and other colder, shorter season areas. Why so many Austin roses are climbers and sometimes once flowering here when they are such splendid garden plants were they were bred and selected. Every rose, every plant is good somewhere, but that doesn't always mean they are good everywhere. Unfortunately, much of the time, we can't know that until enough people experience the issues and share the knowledge. Sometimes, the distributing nursery actually tests them and reports on the issues before you have to be the test subject. Such as when Conard Pyle released the Eyeconic series. They discovered they prefer warmer, drier heat and can experience greater black spot issues where it's warmer and wetter. It's why they are, or weren't supposed to be, pushed in areas where black spot is a greater issue. Hopefully, with more of the Kordes roses becoming available here through Newflora, more pre sale testing can be possible so more of the potential issues will be known and shared prior to "polar bears appearing at your local Home Depot in Palm Springs". It's so common all over. Just recently, Kippy related how she sought the flowering cherry which will flower where she lives, only to find those requiring much more chill than they will ever receive there. I don't know about you, but I'm getting dizzy from all the head shaking! LOL! Thank you. Kim

Kim,
The concept of a 'dwarfing' rootstock exists for many a fruit tree. These not only limit the size of the tree but often increase its productivity to size ratio. I infer that such kind of rose rootstock must / can surely exist, it is just that not much (if any) research has been done to find it or create it.
Nik

You'd think so, Nik, but as you said, no real research has been conducted and reported on to find one. I've theorized for many years perhaps budding to a mini MIGHT offer some dwarfing, but who knows? Their wood doesn't seem as long lived as types more suitable for roots stock and no one (not even I) have attempted and reported it. The closest I've encountered was in the bed of old Icebergs at The Huntington Library, in one of the corners around the huge Mermaid mound. Clair Martin, former Curator of Roses, would joke as we walked past that bed that the runt of the litter was the sole plant budded to Huey. All the others were head and shoulders larger and all own root. However, as unstable as Iceberg is, those other plants could easily have been rooted from canes expressing more of the climbing habit where the budded plant was selected from closer to the bush type expression. Though a dwarfing stock would be interesting and even fun to discover, why would it be needed? It would surely not be something commercially viable. There are just too many choices of roses which do what is desired without having to pay more for them to be "dwarfed". I honestly doubt there would be a viable market for it. Dwarfed fruit trees, absolutely. Dwarfed larger roses? I don't think so. Kim

Well, one reason would be for us warmies to enjoy more of the Austins for example. Or people with limited space to enjoy more of the ramblers or the big teas. The so called 'pot' or patio roses actually being suitable for the pot or the patio. I can think of quite a few reasons why such a rootsock might be desirable.
Nik

This past summer I budded Talisman onto Ragged Robin & it took. I couldn't believe the growth. Within a few weeks I had a big thick shoot similar to your photo--& it wants to bloom so badly--I keep dis-budding it. Far better looking than my poor little own root Talisman that's nearly 2 years old.

I'm trying to air root below the bud so I can take it off the Ragged Robin stem. I would love to try Pink Clouds. I think Champney's Pink Cluster might be good for my zone, also. It's easy to root, has nice smooth interfaces between thorns & is a happy easy-keeper.

"We" might find it desirable, Nik, but we're not the "average customer", nor do we represent the lion's share of plant sales. I wonder how many would be willing to pay $30 and more for a specially budded, dwarfed Graham Thomas when they can buy it for half that as a traditional bare root or own root? Not that those prices are what you can get them for, but you get the idea. Specialty budding things like that is very time consuming for little to no real reward. The reality of operating a "nursery" is you have to pump out the volume as cost efficiently as possible. Special projects like that are fun and interesting, but they don't keep the lights on. Kim

Since we are theorizing and speculating here I might as well continue to do so. CA and the warmer States represent a considerable share of the US market. To a lesser extent and regardless of the current troubles so does Southern Europe with regards to the European market. Aus, India, China you name it... DA for example might decide to offer roses budded on different rootstocks for the warmer climate markets, the same way they offer their roses budded to different rootstocks for their European and US markets. It could be a viable and much cheaper alternative, although of course not a substitute, to developing roses specifically for these particular markets. In Europe at least, hybridizing is dominated by colder climate based hybridizers and their home markets and warmer climate customers are given the short end of the stick.

Also, while we are on the subject, I'm also wondering why no 'sandwich' grafting techniques have been investigated in rose production. These are not uncommon in fruit tree propagation. I know, I know, I'm letting my imagination run wild. I guess what I mean to say is that there so much more with regards to budding and rootstock use that has not been investigated / exploited in rose production since rose research has been, understandably, centered on the all important issue of hybridizing. This is in contrast to fruit tree research which has given great attention to rootstocks and interstocks along with hybridizing new varieties. This is not without commercial reason but still one can wonder what if.
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Mon, Feb 3, 14 at 16:38

I have two points to make. The first is long term vs. short term. Grafted roses give quick gratification but unless they go own root or extra measures are taken to keep the graft strong, long term they go into decline as the graft and eventually the canes wear out. Here in SoCal with the grafts above ground they gradually wear out and the rose declines. This doesn't happen with own root roses. They just get stronger and stronger.

The second point is growing conditions. In CT my grafts were below ground in moist compost where they stayed alive and produced basals indefinitely as well as root balls. Whereas these exceptional growing conditions are required in a cold inhospitable place like Connecticut they are not generally found here. In fact just the opposite is true and while this may be good enough for grafted plants to thrive as mine are I don't think it is good enough for tiny own rooted plants to be competitive. And so I would say that if you give them the extra care and super conditions they need to get going the comparison with grafted plants will be quite different. And one or two years wont do it. It will take at least 3-5 years.

I know that some roses are very weak on their own roots and weak grafted as well so if you want to have these in your garden they should be grafted. However, if a rose is strong on it's own roots why would you not want to have it that way and avoid all the graft issues?

It's not just size though, I am inclined to agree, Nik, it seems weird that more research and experimentation has not been done regarding rose rootstocks - after all, grafted vegetables have suddenly appeared on the market.
Because grafting isn't just about size......
it affects

growth rate
amount and complexity of maintenance
ease of harvest
productivity
preciosity
senescence
hardiness
adaptation to different soils and soil conditions
drought tolerance
how well the tree will be anchored
whether the tree will need permanent or temporary support (not just how well it's anchored)
fruit size (bloom size?)
resistance to certain diseases
resistance to certain pests
rootstock and scion graft compatibility
tendency to sucker

I do know that Harkness, for example, developed their own preferred rootstock (whether it is still in use I don't know)....but this strikes me as nowhere near exhausting the possibilities.

I have no doubt you've experienced decline with some grafted roses, Henry, but your statement that all budded roses decline with time isn't universal. My kid sister has three Queen Elizabeth which are budded on Huey (the suckers prove it) and they grow well in to her mature apricot tree. People have stopped her for years asking what the pink flowered fruit tree is. All three were planted in 1966 by the woman who built the house. They are bush forms, not climbers, but they are huge and completely productive. They receive the water they need and have very seldom been whacked severely. There is another QE here which was planted in a severe situation on the south west corner of the house when it was purchased in 1975, and it's also still going strong. There is a basement level with the windows above the plant on the first story of the house to give you some perspective of the plant's size. I'm certain of the planting time as I live with the person who planted it.

I encounter them more often than you think and what they all have in common are they are seldom to never pruned to the extreme and they NEVER have the soil beneath them disturbed. No mulch dug or worked in to the soil and NO "cultivation" anywhere near their roots. Yes, I know, both of my personal examples are the same variety, but they're the ones I touch and live with regularly. I had budded roses I moved from previous gardens when I created the old Newhall garden, then grew there the 18 years that garden existed which never declined. A lot has to do with the durability of the variety, with at least as much having to do with how they are treated, nor not mistreated. Kim

Camps,
It sure affects all of those (and more, like growth pattern since it can affect internodal length, fruit quality and virtually everything that is controlled by natural phytohormones in the plant), I just took the opportunity to discuss size, growth rate and growth pattern. I'm more than sure that lots of things could be accomplished by judisciously choosing rootstock but it just doesn't happen. Maybe this research is too costly and time consuming, on top of the equallly costly and time consuming hybridizing business, to be undertaken by a rather declining industry. After all, to my knowledge, most of the research in fruit trees and rootstocks is undertaken worldwide by publicly funded institutes. On top of this, at least in the US, it seems that there is this trend for own-roots as if this is the answer to all things bad about roses. I have nothing against own root roses as long as the plant is viable, and I'm sure there are many advantages in some cases, but it seems to me that own-root is considered by some to be a more natural or 'organic', to use a fashionable term, way of growing roses, as if there's much which is natural with most of the roses we love. Most of them couldn't even be born, not to mention thrive, in nature if it were not for man.
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Tue, Feb 4, 14 at 1:28

Kim:
I hope it is okay that I posted a link to your "I am NOT an expert" which I found very interesting on budding vs. own root roses. It appears to be a reprinting of a post. I wonder what "Jim" had said to spark your reply, but as with all your posts, I am grateful that you did.

Here is a link that might be useful: I am Not an expert

Thank you, Jasminerose. I'm glad you enjoyed it. IIRC, "Jim" stated something like budded roses were the only way to go, which is often true with many roses and in quite a few climates. As with most things, though, absolutes often just don't hold up. Kim

The hard pruning of the older budded roses sometimes makes them decline rapidly. I have seen this when people who have had roses for 10-20 years pass away or move and garden crews come and start heavy pruning. The formerly big old rose that was mostly left alone is cut back and never recovers. Most of the time, they get weaker and weaker until they are removed. For years they stood there in semi neglect covered with roses all year getting only sprinkler water, mulching and minimal deadheading by the owner. As you say, the disturbing of roots leads to suckering and rapid decline.

I like own roots and also grafted roses. I don't feel biased and like whatever I feel is best for the plant. There are some roses I bought as own roots because they aren't sold grafted and I was hoping I could do it myself one day.

Plant grafting history is lost in the centuries with some evidence that the Romans practiced rose grafting. Rose grafting was already established in Europe before the 20th century to the extent that somebody saw fit to write a book published in 1905 titled 'The History and Culture of Grafted Roses for Forcing'.

As Kim says, there are no absolutes.
Nik

Yep, to be honest, I have a mixture - some grafted, some budded by me(on a mixture of stocks including at least one briar/rubiginosa) and some grown own root from cuttings.....I am probably missing the finer differences but after a few years, I cannot say I really notice many. Maybe over a couple of decades? The main annoyance, of suckering, tends to be fairly rare on laxa but anyway, I generally see this as free plants and a definite plus. I will say that I get a bit impatient with babying own root roses along in pots for a year or so (too much of a risk to get them in the ground (after treading on more than one and hoeing one into oblivion).

"There are just too many variables in roses, as well as in life, for anyone to make an absolute, blanket statement and expect to be correct". Kim Rupert

Kim, so much depends on the variety. I would guess that you probably can't kill Queen Elizabeth in SoCal no matter how it is grown or what you do to it. It would want to become a tree if you let it even in Connecticut. I also have had grafted roses that were in the ground as long as 40 years and were still thriving. I had them where the base of the rose spread out over a foot and there were 10 or more major canes springing from the base. In fact, I posted a picture here once of my grafted Touch of Class that had 19 major canes from the base. That had to be a record. This is all due to growing conditions which are never going to be possible for me to duplicate here in California where the soil is bad and it is hot and dry and watering is a major concern. Time will tell if grafted roses will hold up but my experience so far looking at roses in various gardens is that they do not.

In truth, research into rootstocks had its heyday back in the 30s and 40s.....most of the stocks we use for fruit date back over half a century, originating in just 2 research stations. Every so often, there might be a newer (usually dwarfing) rootstock - I think Gisela5 for cherries was one of the latest....although I think there are newer CG types, not available here in the UK and yep, it is generally an effort funded by joint academic and commercial enterprises, with huge govt. subsidies.
Have you come across grafted tomatoes and peppers, Nik? Anyone in the US? Naturally, the cynic in me suspects a scam.......and they are at least 5x as dear as a non-grafted plant and15 x as much as an F1 seed

Yes there are grafted tomatoes here in so CA. They are grafted to big roots and pushed in a greenhouse. The idea is to get a big plant faster at the start of the season for these super productive pricey designer tomatoes. They are supposed to produce 2 to 3 times as many gourmet tomatoes as a regular plant will. I have not tried it yet. If you only had room for a few plants and wanted top quality,I could see the reason for paying more.

Hmmm, well if you have 2-3 times as much sunshine, nutrients, water, carbon-dioxide.......
I dunno - vegetables obey the law of limiting factors more obviously than all other plants (annuals) so pushing one of the variables for growth will only work inasmuch as every other variable allows. Obviously, it is creating a potential optimum in one area....but these claims of 200-300% yield increases need a more nuanced assessment, I would say....but then again, like any industry, hyperbole is part of the marketing package (racket).
Course, I could be completely wrong (and jaded) - anyone actually tried these and noticed a difference (perhaps one for the veggie forum?)

Just to throw a bit into this mix, when I visited Harkness last July, they use R. 'Laxa' seedling plants as does David Austin, imported from Europe.
As for budded versus ownroot, it is my opinion that it depends on the variety. The other thing I might add is that my roses are budded, but I plant the union below the ground to achieve the support of the stock and the progression of supplementary roots from the desired plant.

Glenburn,

It is interesting what you say about DA in Texas (?) using Laxa (not R. laxa I should add, that is another species). I was under the impression, just by reading various discussions here and there, that they used multiflora or Dr. Huey. Actually they state on their site that they use the latter. They offer also a limited selection of own-root bareroots which they don't do in Europe. I suppose they have tested these plants and have seen they perform well on their own roots. It is interesting to point out here that own-root does not have to mean bands although this is often the case.. One can offer field grown ownroots as bareroot or potted plants.

Camps,
with regards to the citrus industry, research into rootstocks has certainly not stopped in the 30s. Much of it took place in the 60s and 70s and I believe that it is still going on and new rootstocks are created and tested continously.

One thing that people in the US should be aware of is that virtually all major hybridizers in Europe graft their roses early during their selection process. Which means that the roses they decide to market have in general not been selected or tested based on their own root performance.
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 0:44

Glad you bought up the difference between bands and field grown own root, Nik, because there is always a misunderstanding about relative sizes (although not on these forums where we all know better). A 2 year old field grown own root rose is the equivalent age to a first year grafted plant.

I did see a short film about stenting - where a short piece of internodal stem is simultaneously rooted and budded under mist - keep meaning to have a go.

Citrus, apart from a hard-pressed Meyer lemon is an unknown quantity for me, Nik...........would love to grow them...and in fact, there have been some successes in the south of the UK and in polytunnels. Just moving one large versailles pot, in and out of the greenhouse was enough to convince me that citrus have no part to play in my future (because if global warming increases enough for them, we will be under water in East Anglia),
Do you grow them? What do you garden on/in, Nik? Are you urban or rural? I spent some time in Greece (and the islands) as a young traveller (who didn't?) and mainly recollect immensely hilly terrain, lots of stone and deep fertile valleys with peaches up near the Albanian borders. Also much greener around Saloniki/Thessalonika (had to go and punt some blood (as you do). Spent days and days stuck in a truckstop outside Polycastron (think that's the spelling) Have to confess, Athens was not really part of my itinerary though.

Yeah, I think DA does use Huey....Glenburn (Irish) possibly refers to the DA operation in the UK. Given the difficulties involved in international plant movements, why would you(bother with laxa when Huey is easily available).

Apols. for capital letters and such - despite years of gardening, I still fail on spelling and most aspects of nomenclature. As for single quotes and double quotes, cultivars, varieties, subspecies etc.etc......I know there are conventions but fail to know what exactly they are.....so simply ignore.

Camps.

I didn't realize Glenburn was not talking about the States, my mistake. Got confused by the phrase 'imported from Europe' but I should have known better... lol

I live in an ex-rural, ex-seaside summer vacation place that is now mostly part of the sprawling Athens suburbia, about 40 km east from the center of Athens, by the sea. Yes, I do grow citrus trees as a hobby, I got about 30 of them in my garden, various kinds and varieties and I also grow some in pots (mainly until I can bud them to some suitable rootstock). Citrus are grown commercially in Southern Greece at low altitudes relatively close to the sea. Northern Greece, mainly stone fruit country as you noticed, is already too cold for them as are places in higher altitudes and places too far inland. Citrus and England don't mix well, I know, unless one wants to grow just rootstocks like trifoliate orange and its F1 hybrids which produce inedible fruit, just for decorative purposes. Even under cold glass growing citrus in England should be very iffy, I think.
Nik

PS. How on earth can one get stuck in Polykastro, a small rural town north of Salonica on the road to Bulgaria? What on earth had you been doing there? That place is really hot and humid in the summer and can be bitterly cold in the winter.
Pic of Polykastro in the middle of nowhere..
http://www.kilkis24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/polykastro1.jpg

Here is a link that might be useful: An Engish citrus lover's interesting site

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 8:19

Camps,
Just a pic of the place I live, taken from the hilltop behind my place which is a bit downhill from there.

I think we have digressed too much from the thread (and forum) topic. Sorry
Nik

Here is a link that might be useful: Where Nik lives

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 9:37

Oh don't worry....I have permission to waffle (there have been vague attempts to keep me on track but they fail). Yeah, I was hitching around with my youngest (Rowan, 20months when we started and nearly 4 by the time we got back home for good)....and had gotten a lift with a German truck driver and his 9 year old daughter...we were stuck waiting for lorry parts (I agreed to hang around because of Nicola, the little girl - we camped in the back of the lorry and played a lot of cards). I had a vague idea I might try and blag my way into Albania....but ended up getting a visa to go through Bulgaria. You know.....no sort of plan whatsoever but was travelling on the good karma of a small child ....which obviously worked because we had a fabulous time in Greece, everywhere we went....at least back in 1979....

Ooh citrus, so jealous. I hover over my lemon as though it was a consumptive invalid, a permanent battle against scale, aphids, leafdrop, cold, blossom fall.....but that fragrance takes me somewhere much warmer than East Anglia.....and we eat the rare lemons with huge ceremony and fussing.

I have some bitter orange seeds (Poncirius trifoliata) - should I grow them and attempt some budding? I know it is likely to fail but honestly, this is the story of my entire gardening career - insane (and short-lived) enthusiasms where reason and rationality are thrust aside in favour of mad novelty.

Bitter Orange was a common landscape tree in this are after WWII. There is one off the deck in back which the squirrels always kept stripped until there was more activity out back. Now, it's loaded with "fruit" though all it's good for is ornamental use and cooking. A highschool friend's parents had several as lawn trees. His mother used to laugh herself silly over the kids walking to school seeing their loaded "orange trees". They'd strip the fruit and she'd find is torn apart littering the street for nearly a block where they'd tried eating it and found it incredibly inedible. The rodents LOVE them. Kim

Hi Camps,
Poncirus trifoliata (syn. Citrus trifoliata) aka trifoliate orange is not what we usually call bitter orange. Citrus aurantium is the bitter orange (the Brits tend to call it Seville orange and love the marmalade made of it, we also candy the peel and make bittersweet syrupy desert out of either the peel or the whole young fruitlets - see pic), it is also used in the perfume industry, and is what Kim describes. It is also a very good rootstock especially for dry, alkaline and calcareous conditions (just like mine) but unfortunately is very susceptible to the Tristeza virus.

Coming back to trifoliate, it will thrive in your climate but it is a very slow grower. It is the only really decidous tree out of the citrus family and it's VERY thorny. It produces pretty but inedible (even when cooked) golf ball sized pale yellow fruit but I feel it makes a very nice landscape specimen. It provides some extra hardiness and dwarf characteristics to citrus budded on it. It will (mostly) come true to type from seed (a property not shared by many citrus) and that of course is one of the reasons it is used as rootstock. In citrus world, species and hybrids not coming true from seed are not generally used for rootstock. Citrus seeds tend to loose their fertility if they dry up so if you have had the seeds for too long sprouting might be iffy. No stratification or other pre-processing required. Temps >18C are required for germination.
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Feb 6, 14 at 4:55

Oh thank you, Nik, Kim. Of course, if I embark on this you will be mithered to death with frantic questions. Have already been out scrutinising the lemon which is probably a bit too wet - leaky greenhouse - and is looking sorry for itself(I know, I should check out the citrus forum but I am lazy....and shy).

Funny you should mention marmalade - the Sevilles are just on the tail end of the market now - I always make a batch as back-up in case we run out of jam - must rush and get a couple of kilos.
Is marmalade popular in the US? With peel or without? Thick or thin? purist Seville Orange or 'fusion'...citrus mixes and even........ pineapples and such (never)?

Also, the jam question. Jam.....I disdain common old jam. We have jellies made from juice strained through muslin - no pips, no skin, no pulp....but intense. So, what do Americans mean by 'peanut butter and jelly' (I know about peanut butter). Do they have jelly/jam/compote/cheese/conserve distinctions and if so, what?

The citrus forum is a nice and friendly place Camps. Actually most people in there are located in climates unsuitable for citrus (often much less suitable than yours, like Zone 5..) jumping through hoops to grow their plants in pots overwintering them in their basements with artificial light, than in climates like mine being able to grow the trees more or less as nature intended. I could never be as dedicated as these folks seem to be. So you will feel at home!

You're welcome to ask me any questions. One thing to know is that citrus in general like the air and soil to be humid but they detest their feet to be too wet or waterlogged. Also, for people growing them in pots in unsuitable climates, there has to be a balance between lighting received and temp (i.e. less light should be paired with colder temps so it's no good moving them in the living room for the winter, cold glass is the best as long as temps do not fall below freezing for too long and never below -4C) and they don't like great variations between soil and air temps. They usually respond promptly with leaf drop once they find conditions not to their liking or when they get shocked by an abrupt change.
Nik

It's possible to find pretty much any permutation of with or without rind marmalade here, as well as "gourmet" blends including lemon, lime, pineapple and other oddities. They have their uses, but have never been favorites of mine. The only way I find marmalades tolerable is for orange glazed beets, a recipe from the very old Fannie Farmer cook book. As long as the marmalade is sufficiently intense, it helps mask the "wet dirt" taste and stench of the beets. Another "not a favorite" of mine, but something enjoyed by "the rest of the house", and "he who complains, cooks", so I "enjoy" them with the rest.

The same wilth "jams and jellies". Too much of the "domestic product" is too highly flitered, strained, purified, concentrated and chock full of corn syrup. Fortunately, there are many sources of "imported" jams and jellies containing simpler ingredients as well as a handful of smaller US producers who use "real fruit", pectin and sugar. There are sources of peanut butter and jelly combinations in the same jars which I won't describe. Reading the labels, they appear as unhealthy to eat as they are disgusting to look at. Kim

Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches can be made with anything. The classic 'jelly' is concord grape jelly. About ten miles north is a pick-your-own vineyard, so I've made it a couple of times.

Sorry Nik, I meant England, DAR and Harkness use it, as for the USA, I believe the Good Doctor is the choice.
Regards David.