Aprille, canes of the LCl Sombreuil, spread out horizontally on a fence, can run 12 ft in Southern California. I remember Alchymist as being less-reachy. Maybe 7-ft?

William Allen Richardson -- the one I've seen most recently is a bit more restrained. Here it is on a tripod, in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden.

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Jeri

Here is Sombreuil on a 5' fence. It is easier to see the structure without the foliage.

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There are two theories here: You can look up the proper spacing for the roses you bought and subtract a couple feet because you know perfectly well you will be ordering additional roses once you see how gorgeous these are in bloom.
Or, you can be in total denial and actually plant the roses at their recommended spacing. But then, when you see they are gorgeous and buy more, you will have to squish them in between and that really could get cramped.

OK, knowledgeable and experienced ones. We have a climber with a height of 12'. 12' canes means canes going to the right are 12', and canes going to left are another 12' for a total of 24' of width, right? You didn't know such a dimwit would be a genius at math, did ya? OK, you have another rose, say Mermaid, that is described as 15' to 25'. Does that mean this rose can cover 50' of fence?

I hope someone answers this. Remember, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. And this one has always bothered me even though I think the answer is obvious. But then I'm not sure. Duh.

Sherry

24' minus the stiffness-of-the-cane factor. Some (many?) roses won't bend perfectly horizonally, so you end up with less distance on the main canes. So for example my fairly flexible Sombreuil has 15' canes, but I can only get them to arch over to a length of about 10', which gives me 20' of width with 15' canes. Another example my very stiff Altissimo, which has 12' canes, but won't bend more than a few feet over, giving me an 8' wide climber.

However, you also have to factor in the length-of-the-laterals-factor (secondary canes sprouting from the main canes). My Sombreuil, for example, can produce 5-8' laterals off of the main canes, giving a little extra length (the longest laterals grow lower on the canes--I don't get a 5' lateral growing at the end of a 15' cane, they grow closer to the base). On the other hand there was Eden, which produced laterals of about 12" most of the time, adding no horizontal width to the plant at all.

It is also important to be able to tie your canes on something. If you have a wood fence it is harder to work with. I have a 100' fencline and I have a chain link fence and behind it is the neighbors wood fence.

I can zip tie canes that flop out to the walkway and keep some of the monsters at bay! My spacing was wrong and I have been moving roses for the past two years! Give climbers at least 5-8 feet.

Thanks so much, hoovb. You just showed me that I have to move my Sombreuil to a spot on my fence, but first I have to move Belinda's Dream, but first I have to prepare a bed for her. Groan. All this after fertilizing and mulching BD's bed last weekend. One step forward and two steps back. Ugh.

Sherry

My Sombrieul is a monster. This is it's 2nd full year and I have 15 ft canes.

I would chuck the trellis idea and buy some eye hooks and galvanized wire. String the wire along the fence (the preferred height is every 12 inches). Then you can stretch the canes horizontally and tie them to the wire with jute twine.

I just did this with 2 of my climbers and I already have twice as many laterals as I did when I tried to use trellises. More laterals = more flowers. Plus the roses are flatter against the fence/wall and look better IMO.

I saw this method when I went to Biltmore and it's the way professionals do it.

Come again about Belinda's Dream and Sombrueil; if you proceed with your plan A, how far apart would the plants be? I have the same situation with Distant Drums & Sombrueil and the bases are five feet apart. I'm not a bit concerned about their roots competing, & since Sombreuil's on a 6 ft.fence they're both going to get enough sun. And Belinda is much more of a spreader than DD, Belinda typically wider than tall..

Thank you everyone for your advice. I'm wondering if I'm going to have enough space for the climbers ... I love buford's idea - DH would love it too, makes the job easier, our only problem is that two of the fences are pretty much about to fall over. One side was replaced earlier this year with that neighbour and this method will work with that fence. Will have to have a chat with the other two neighbours and see if they will split the cost (since it's a shared fence).

daun your chain link fence idea is also appealing, specially with the fences almost falling apart.

Jeri thanks for that gorgeous picture of William Allen Richardson. I'm definitely driving down this spring to check it out.

hoovb - thanks for that picture. It certainly helps to see how it's supposed to be.

Aprille

Neither of my Sombreuils have gotten as big as what others have here but my William Alan Richardson has canes of perhaps 25 feet. YMMV

One of the more tender Noisettes leaning towards the Teas.] William Allen Richardson [Noisette]; flowers fine orange yellow, of medium size, full, very showy and distinct; growth vigorous.

Hoovb, I also thank you for the pruned Sombreuil pic.

barbarag_happy, right now Sombreuil (planted last March) is at the corner of my patio. I had planned to do some sort of pillar, but last summer it took ill and has stood there as a 3' bare thorny cane with no change since June. Somebody here said leave it alone so I did. I see now that leafbuds are swollen so I guess it's not dead. But after seeing hoovb's photo I can see he is in the wrong spot. Belinda's Dream is in a 3x3 spot, obviously not appropriate. She went in the ground last February & is still tall & skinny. Local folks told me she gets to be 7x7 and mine is on fortuniana so who knows. But she has to get out of there. I've probably got 12'+ of east-facing stockade fence behind a Louis P & a Natch Noisette. Does Sombreuil bulge out more than 3 ft between the ground & head-high? LP & NN are pretty open bushes right now. I don't know what the future will bring.
Sherry

Aprille:

Thanks for this question and everyone for the great responses. Last night my husband and I sketched out our plan of attack for where the new and existing roses will be this spring. We want to put our climbers in the back yard against 6' wood trellis on a wood fence. I was asking myself last night if those trellis's would be wide enough but I think they will. I want to pair together Night Owl and Crown Princess Margareta, Joseph's Coat and Blaze, and Iceberg with Viking Queen. I'm assuming that with our growing season being shorter and winter conditions colder than yours Aprille the growth will be more restrained.

Thanks.

Kate

Does Sombreuil bulge out more than 3 ft between the ground & head-high?

*** DEPENDS, I think, on how on-top-of tying up you are.
It certainly CAN grow way out beyond that, but you can avoid it, if you keep pulling canes back.
We once grew Sombreuil as freestanding fountains, and they were thorny 20-ft.-dia circles of growth.
Spectacular, but vicious.

Jeri

I think I read that long-caned climbers can be turned back towards center. True? And I saw photos from Jon of Wessex where roses were "S-curved" up a wall. What do you do if your fanned-out canes run out of fence? Flexible canes shouldn't be a problem turning back, but stiffer ones might have to go vertical more before turning back. Or is this not done?
Sherry

What do you do if your fanned-out canes run out of fence?

Several canes I turned back and I did cut several long pieces off some canes that were getting too thin or could not be placed.

On modern climbers like Peace or Cl. Pink Peace I get a lot of laterals on canes up on over five feet and those laterals tend to be huge and very long.

It's best to train the canes as young as possible. Some climbers, like Iceberg, stay pretty flexible. But others get thick and stiff pretty quick.

I just want to thank you Hoovb for the photo of your pruned Sombreuil. It is wise of the poster to inquire about spacing of climbers BEFORE planting. Pruning climbers can be quite challenging and a picture of a freshly pruned rose is priceless! Is there a thread on the gallery that has GW forumer's photos of their pruned roses?