This situation is not unlike that of a 19th-Century cemetery in Santa Rosa, CA.

Vintage Gardens collected there a huge, magnificent specimen of 'Devoniensis.' Subsequent to that find, the rose was killed by overenthusiastic "pruning."

The cemetery's roses are now being restored by a group of volunteers, but though Vintage has donated small plants for the cementery, that Devoniensis will never again grow well in the place where the original was, because there are now huge trees shading and crowding that place. The replacement plants of 'Devoniensis' have been planted in areas of the cemetery which have some sunlight.

I suspect that the only way to replace a rose garden in that place would be to re-site it, away from the trees.

Jeri

I have a shady garden, weak zone 5a sun. Roses that bloom well in shade for me, listed from least shade to moderate shade:

Lynnie, bred by Kim Rupert.
Marie Pavie
Bolero Floribunda
Honey Bouquet
Pat Austin
Wise Portia
Mary Magdalene
William shakespeare 2000
Golden Celebration
Christopher Marlow

The above can do with 4 hours of sun. Other roses listed as partial shade BUT requires more than 4 are: Queen of Sweden, Crown Princess Magareta in my garden.

The ones I don't grow but Al in shady garden here in Chicagoland grows are: Peter Mayle and Home Run.

I wrote it wrong, it should be "from most shade to moderate shade" The top of the list bloomed in 2 hours of very weak zone 5a sun. The bottoms need 4 hours. I have 26 trees.

My neighbor has Pink Gruss A. It was loaded in Thanksgiving (6 hours of very weak Chicagoland sun). Al stated that Home Run bloomed very well in shade. Cantigny Rose park here (1,200 roses) kicked out Knock-out to replace with Home Run.

I'm vitamin D-deficient from lack of sun in Chicagoland. The roses I listed bloomed in 4 hours of sun, except for stingy Crown Princess Mag. and Queen of Sweden.

In my garden, Archduc Joseph, Pat Austin and William Shakespeare prefer full shade.
The New Dawn, Aimee Vibert and Madame Alfred Carriere have all been planted in full shade under trees, and have climbed through the trees into the sunlight.
Daisy

Kittymoonbeam in another thread mentioned Autumn Damask grows in partial shade in her CA garden. I'm impressed with my neighbor's Pink Gruss A. blooming that much in our very gloomy Nov. weather. (cloudy all month).

Below link shows a picture of Peter Mayle blooming in morning sun only, in the cold zone east coast. More than one person growing that one in partial shade.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:233473}}

Antique Rose Emporium has this list of roses that will do well in partial shade. They also have these roses!

Here is a link that might be useful: ARE Partial Shade Rose List

Strawberry, I got a Crown Princess M. by mistake this year and was wondering if I should grow it in a pot or the ground. It is on Dr. Huey roots. I remember you saying Dr. Huey would make some DA roses stingy because they could not get enough water to bloom. I was thinking of trying her in a pot to get her to go own root like I do with Palatine plants. You know so much about DA roses in alkaline soil and I have had good luck with all the ones you said were good in your garden. The spot I have is 5 1/2 hours of sun next to Crepuscule. I thought those would look pretty together.

I like Iceberg for partial shade as well as Gruss An Aachen. I am trying out Madame Alfred Carriere for a semi shade position and that rose can grow! To the top of my plum tree in one season!

My Etoile de Mai grows and blooms at the foot of an oak tree. They're not OGR's but the Hybrid Musks Vanity and Nur Mahal are good in shadier spots.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Hi Kitty: That's a great idea, forcing CPM to grow own-root in addition to Dr. Huey. I dug several Knock-outs - the one I never water with tons of blooms had both own-root plus Dr. Huey.

Dr. Huey has an advantage in alkaline soil with its big root, forcing it to grow own-root on top of that make the overall root even bigger, extracting more water & more blooms. Your sun in CA is more intense than my sun in Chicagoland, so CPM would do fine with your 5 1/2 hours.

Hi Kitty: I will clarify own-root and Dr. Huey so people won't misunderstand me. I have 45+ own-roots, and dug up many roses, here is what I observe in my garden only:

1) Own-roots are wimpy, they do better in partial shade for the first few years, until their roots grow deeper. My Mirandy's blooms fried as own-root, but a friend in CA said his Mirandy blooms are fine on Dr. Huey.

2) Dr. Huey is great for heavy clay with its deep root, except for flash-flood region like my Chicagoland. I have many wet spots that Dr. Huey perished completely. So I planted own-root Romanticas and they do great in wet spot. When I attempted to plant annuals next to Romanticas, it was impossible. Romanticas' roots are shallow and knit across the surface. It's an advantage for a wet spot, but not winter-hardy.

3) Austin roots are deeper, thus David Austin roses are hardier than Romanticas for cold zone. There are some Austins with wimpy roots: William Shakespeare 2000 and Pat Austin are best in partial shade. I dug them up, and their own-roots are pathetic.

4) Most Old Garden Roses are sold own-roots, some are pathetic like Comte de Chambord with own-roots like alfalfa sprouts, which broke off when I transferred. One person said Comte de Chambord does well in partial shade ... mine did lousy in full sun. Comte de Chambord, Louis Odier, and Paul Neyron are listed as partial shade. Paul Neyron is another wimy root that could not handle full sun above 90 degrees, and disease-prone. When I put Pau Neyron in morning sun only, he did great.

I'm glad Kitty brought up Dr. Huey. I will clarify further so I won't be misunderstood. My point has always been Dr. Huey can handle dry clay well, but own-root can handle wet weather better.

Golden Celebration is blackspot-prone for many people if grafted on Dr. Huey. Dr. Huey is a deep-root system, and CANNOT handle poor-drainage, water-clog clay. Take mauve Heirloom hybrid tea grafted on Dr. Huey. It was great in a pot, but once transferred in wet clay, it broke out in BS. I dug up Heirloom , and Dr. Huey shrank in that wet spot. Dr. Huey' roots disappear completely in 4 Knock-out roses, and they grew shallow upper own-roots in that wet spot. The plants shrank in size as well.

My Golden Celebration is own-root, gets from 2 to 6 hours of sun, depending on the shadow of my house in late fall. As own-root, my Golden Cel. is 100% blackspot free, even in week-long rain. Its root system is extensive, but shallow all over the surface like Romanticas. My plant is small as own-root.

The smaller the rose compared to the root, the healthier it is. By the 3rd year, nitrogen fertilizer makes the rose becomes much larger than the root, and the root cannot support such big mass. Most roses are healthy the 1st year, and decline with diseases in 3rd year. The advantaqe of own-root is the mass of the rose remains small compared to the root. That's the reason why some smaller own-root roses are healthier.

Someone asked the question if own-roots are healthier? My answer is it depends on which root is bigger for that wet or dry spot. It depends on which root is more efficient in getting the maximum water and nutrients. One person report "Love Potion" has less BS grafted on Dr. Huey, compared to his other wimpy own-root plant.

My healthiest own-roots? They are the ones with the biggest root system. Comte de Chambord has the most blackspots, and the wimpiest root whitish like alfalfa sprouts. That one needs partial shade.

oldroseguy,

One you might consider is the tea rose, 'Mons. Tillier.' I grew this under some tall pines on the eastern side of my home in north Alabama where it only got morning sun. Others on that east side were Cramoisi Superieur, Perle d'Or and Mutabilis all of which seemed to do fine with morning sun until about noon, if my rememberer still works. they were shaded by the house and trees the rest of the day.

Live oaks have more overhanging branches than my pines did, though, so I'm not sure.

Ghislaine de Feligonde and Veilchenblau also did well in those pines with some morning sun. Up by the house where it got very little sun, a little direct afternoon and a smattering of morning, was the earthkind rose, Spice.

A hedge of knock outs back there between my neighbor and me didn't do that well because of the shade, but the CS, PdO and Mutabilis seemed to be fine.

Something else that did really well in the partial shade to my surprise was Limelight, the paniculata hydrangea. I put it there because I knew there wasn't enough sun for a rose; I didn't expect it to become as large and floriferous as it did there.

hth and good luck.

This is Mons Tillier, late April 2009, north Alabama
{{gwi:233474}}

This is a shot in August 2009; you can see the Limelight in the middle, MT on the right and that is GdF on the left.
That Limelight is probably 5 or 6 feet behind the MT, although it looks like it's right beside it.
{{gwi:233475}}

Marie Pavie does really well for us in shade and is totally healthy, smelly and floriferous. The California sun is very strong and many roses here can tolerate more shade than they could further north and I'm assuming the sun is equally strong in the Deep South?

p.s. I think Daisy's 'Archduc Joseph' is the same as Mons. Tillier.

Hi oldroseguy,

I'd suggest buying the biggest roses you can, that like partial shade, and even then growing them up a while in large pots to give them a better chance in the difficult conditions once they are planted.

Antique Rose Emporium is a really good suggestion, maybe giving them a call and describing what you want and the garden situation would be helpful. ARE does send larger plants than many online rose nurseries, and their roses come potted (I think in 2 gallon sized pots). Getting roses from them means higher shipping costs than from some other sources, but one is getting larger plants too which is a plus when one wants bigger roses sooner. They place a lot of importance on growing healthy roses and in addition the likelihood of getting a rose free of RMV is high.

Melissa

I am getting ready to plant my Mutabilis in a few weeks. Several are planned for a part sun location, has anyone ever grown them in that situation?

Lucille, my Mutabilis gets morning sun, afternoon shade, and after two years is starting to get huge, and blooms prolifically.

I have heard and it seems true in my garden that morning sun is superior to late afternoon sun if you are having shade for part of the day. If you only have a half day, it is better to have it in the morning if you can. I don't know why this is but I have had plants in that later day spot that would not bloom and grew stretched for the light, and when I moved them to a morning sun spot that had the same number of hours, they bloomed nicely. I prefer morning sun for all my fragrance roses.

Hybrid Musks can tolerate some shade, such as Lavender Lassie.

The Bourbon Zephirine Drouhin might be one to consider. Great fragrance.

Perhaps a Tea- Noisette: Mme Alfred Carriere, a vigorous rose, great bloomer.

Thanks to everyone who has responded with great information. The garden staff have read your replies.I agree with Mutabilis, it could probably bloom inside a windowless room!

'Mutabilis,' btw, will climb trees to reach the sun, if it is forced to do so.
The downside, of course, is that in shade, it (like most roses) will grow more slowly, and bloom less prolifically.

Jeri

We have a baby 'Belle Portugaise', on its own roots (from a cutting), growing in just this kind of situation: under a dead tree it will need to climb to reach the sun. We found it not far from 19th Century hort pioneer Francesco Franceschi's home and garden in Santa Barbara, so it's probably an old clone and hopefully pretty vigorous. So far it's putting on those nice, large gigantea leaves and looking full of spunk. I'll bet it will propel itself into the sun and hopefully bloom up a storm.

Good find, Linda. :-)

Jeri

I picked up a 5g of Golden Celebration when I went to watch Jeri prune the antiques, Kim hopefully remembers the bush.

I had planned on putting in a different area of the garden but since I have been working on the improved "party patio" I have been thinking of putting on the other side of the fence/bench. (I am leveling the patio, a good 18" on one side) so the neighbors 6 foot privacy fence is not so private for us anymore. I noticed that this area gets some good strong sun even this time of year in the mid morning, more since there is less fence to shade it now.

Do you think that is enough direct sun? Summer there is a bit more, but the nice developer of that complex put in a row of big trees to screen my parents mess from the high paying customers decades ago + the massive oak tree, so now almost half of the property is in shade this time of year.

Hi Kippy: that's enough sun for Golden Celebration. Our sun in Chicagoland is much weaker, my own-root Golden Cel. is vigorous and healthy with 4 hours of sun. A friend in Chicagoland has a a wimpy own-root, failure to grow GC in full-sun.

Golden Celebration is a water-hog. If yours is on Dr. Huey, it will do better in dry soil.

Cecile Brunner - two of them growing in partial-to-quite-a-bit-of shade in the Sacramento Old City Cemetery Rose Garden, and blooming away.

I think Brother Cadfael might be good in partial shade. I've grown this rose in two locations over the course of quite a few years (I got my first Bro the year it came out). In my previous home, BC grew in a northern exposure with part shade, and grew and bloomed just as well as my current BC which grows in an eastern exposure against a wall which reflects a lot of sun and heat. The current rose gets a lot more sun than my first BC. Diane

Clotilde Soupert, Dorothy Perkins, and Eutin are the best, from my experience with gardening in Mississippi.

Rosa Laevigata, of course, depending on the spot, and whether you are willing to keep it clipped as a shrub (or train it into a tree, or over a structure)

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier . . .

I'm linking to an excellent (as usual) Paul Zimmerman video in which he discusses the sunlight requirements of roses in general, and how to succeed in growing certain varieties in situations where the available sunlight is less than ideal.

Also, visit the Antique Rose Emporium website and review their page of roses for partial shade. Approximately 40 varieties are listed there, most of which are from classes of roses mentioned by Paul in his video.

Here is a link that might be useful: P. Zimmerman on Roses & Shade

Hi Lux: I appreciate the info. you gave about shade. It's good reference when people google "roses for shade". Thanks for taking the time.

Thanks Luxrosa. Wow, what a great response for help. We also have good success in partial shade with Cramoisi Superieur,Perle d'Or, Mrs B.R. Cant and Clotilde Soupert.
Slowly, Clotilde Soupert maybe winning my heart as the my favorite rose. Thanks again.

Bump this up to see Luxrosa's excellent info. on roses for partial shade. Below is a list of recommended roses for Colorado, which I AVOID since my garden is too shady. I visited my mother-in-law in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and the sun WAS INTENSE due to high altitude. The sun in Colorado was brighter & hotter than other places I lived in: MI, CA, CT, and currently IL. From below list, the only rose that take partial shade is Abraham Darby, the rest need full bright sun. I got rid of Lillian Austin since it was stingy in my shady garden. Below is a list of roses that thrive in full-sun & dry (as in Denver, CO, zone 5b and 6a with 17 inch. of rain per year):

http://denverrosesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/RecommendedRosesupdatedFeb2017.pdf