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treenutt

compost vegetable garden

16 years ago

After my fall garden, I leveled it and covered it with dry mulched leaves. Now, I am planning on planting early season crop of vegies. I have access to all the compost I can use. (Uncle is organic gardener and composts with horse manure and other variety of good stuff) Of course I have to haul it all in myself, but not a problem there. Question is: Do I just throw the compost on top of the mulched dried leaves and plant directly into the compost or do I till up a couple of inches? Or carefully rake it? It is not a raised bed. Thanks. Eric

Comments (15)

  • 16 years ago

    Eric,
    To get the maximum benefit from your Uncle's compost and your leaves, I'd till them in. I think the plants would be able to utilize the nutrients better if they were distributed at the root system and lower.
    Why couldn't I have an uncle like that! Some folks have all the luck (and good relatives) . . . .

  • 16 years ago

    Eric, there will be a difference of opinion here. The more recent theories about soil amendment would propose that plants get their nutrition from the very top layer of soil. Therefore, you lay organic material on the top of the soil and don't attempt to till it in.

    BTW, compost is a weak fertilizer. Compost is considered a soil amendment, not a fertilizer.

  • PRO
    16 years ago

    "Eric, there will be a difference of opinion here". . . "you lay organic material on the top of the soil and don't attempt to till it in."

    Wouldn't the differences of opinion, be a result of the varying soil conditions, and the need for soil amendments - beyond fertilizer requirements? Obviously, tilling the compost into the soil, will improve the soil's health in term's of tilth and aeration - more so than simply leaving it on the surface.

  • 16 years ago

    Do you understand what it is that changes the soil's tilth? It's the organic acids such as humic and fulvic acids that are the result of the breakdown of compost. Those acids denature soil such as clay soil. Those acids are long lasting and will leach into the soil without help.

    But when you bury organic material into the soil, it slows down the rate of decomposition of that organic material.

    It makes sense to till things like phosphorus and potassium into soil, but not compost. But there's another issue with tilling - it's the destruction of the soil's ecosystem, the fungi in particular.

    Many people are moving in the direction of using compost as a top-dressing and not tilling the soil once a garden bed has been created. That's the way I'm going. I'll till the soil, add some amendments such as superphosphate, humic and fulvic acid, sulfur, and then apply compost on the surface. I'll mulch over the compost and dig through the mulch and compost to plant, and hopefully will never till the soil again.

  • 16 years ago

    I don't 'till' my raised beds -- but do scratch compost into the surface when prep'ing a planting site.

    Am I getting the picture right -- that humus is sort of a 'middle man' between the plant roots and the nourishing elements locked in the soil? And that compost is the 'parent' of humus? And that mulch is the protector of the parent and middle man?

  • PRO
    16 years ago

    I've read those books too Eric and understand some of the basics of soil science ;-)

    Last Fall, I broke ground in several sections of my home property for new gardens, both vegetable and decorative - to which I had added several inches of aged compost I had developed during the past few years. Additionally, based upon recommendations by my co-op extension's soil analysis, I tilled in well-rotted manure along with the compost. This spring, I will till in dried blood (nitrogen), bone meal (phosphorous) + wood ash (potassium)as organic fertilizers - in recommended proportions.

    I've always used compost as a top dressing to our existing beds - but the new gardens will benefit from tilling it under. Subsequently, I will simply lay more compost from the bins on top of the beds in the fall, with some top dressing applications throughout the growing season.

    I'm certainly no soil expert - but was simply implying that your generalized suggestion may be misconstrued.

  • PRO
    16 years ago

    . . . the above post was directed to idaho_gardener, not Eric - the OP. ;)

  • 16 years ago

    Barb asks, "Am I getting the picture right -- that humus is sort of a 'middle man' between the plant roots and the nourishing elements locked in the soil? And that compost is the 'parent' of humus? And that mulch is the protector of the parent and middle man?"

    Barb, that's the exact theory that I'm working from. The humic and fulvic acids make trace minerals available to the plant in a form the plant can use. They also act as food for fungi. Fungi create a cooperative relationship with the roots; the roots supply food (glucose) to the fungi, the fungi transport phosphorus up to the roots.

    Feed the soil food web, and the soil food web will feed the plant. The compost 'lives' in a dark, damp, environment with access to air, so the mulch on the compost helps create that environment. Compost that's buried decomposes more slowly.

    I made some mistakes with burying stuff like coffee grounds and unfinished compost. I'm learning from my mistakes; OM goes on top of the soil. (I consider scratching the soil, maybe 2" deep, to be different than tilling. I dug up year-old coffee grounds that were 6-10" under the surface.)

  • 16 years ago

    It makes a big difference what type of soil you have also. For clay soil I'd work it in either by tilling or by hand. Until something breaks up the clay a little not much of anything is going to penetrate it to any significant degree. At least not for many years. Anything other than clay unless it's the first application I'd just lay it on top. I notice this the most at my parents house. My mom has 2 large piles of manure she gets from my uncle every year for the past 20+ years. you dig down a couple inched in you're in nothing but nasty mucky clay. Her asparagus bed on the other hand,which is only about 10 years old, gets tones of leaves and compost tilled in every fall. You can dig down a foot or more and have nothing but black crumbly earth......and tones of asparagus.

    Basically what I'm saying is when it comes to the need/benefits of working your compost into the soil it really depends on your soil.

  • 16 years ago

    As in most things, there are no "everytime" rules. 35 years ago soil in my city lot consisted of grey DG with a layer of dense red clay and another layer of DG. After years of deep digging [dug a drainage chanel around the house, using the clay to 'cement'rock planter walls - and with this rain, soooo glad for that dainage ditch] - sheet composting,etc, my beds are now filled with lovely loamy soil that I nver have to double dig again .... and a good thing, too, as at 73 years, all that shovel work is too much!

    Idaho gardener .... thanks for the explanation ... short and sweet. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we each strive for healthy soil life given what we have in the way of soils, time,resources, and physical energy. I don't have to dig up my beds now because in years gone by I did.

  • 16 years ago

    Whether to till or not depends on your soil and what is in it now. If you have a soil that has little or no organic matter you might need to till some in to get what will eventually become the Soil Food Web into that soil. However, the clay soil I worked on outside of Corpus Christi did not need tilling even though it had very little OM in it, simply laying compost and vegetative mulches on was sufficient. Within 6 months of being covered by a mulch that soil was soft and workable and in a couple of years any OM plunked on that soil was digested by the Soil Food Web in a short time.
    When you get ready to work that soil take a good look at it and see what really needs to be done. If it is wet and sticky you may need to remove the mulch that is there so the soil can dry enough to till, but if it is soft and you can easily insert a spade, fork, shovel in there is no need to till that soil.

  • 16 years ago

    thanks for all the ideas and tips. Let me see if I can bottle this info in simple steps. 1. native soil is on the bottom. 2. amend native soil as needed with organic amendments. 3. scratch or shallow till (2") of the native soil and amendments together. 3. lay down your compost. 4. plant vegies. 5. mulch to cover compost, weed prevention and help in retaining moisture.
    Sound alright? I will try these steps this year and if it doesnt work, then next year I might try tilling in the compost.
    Also, how many inches should compost be?
    Can I use old hay as a mulch? and how deep?

    Thank you everyone for all the info.

  • 16 years ago

    How many inches of compost you need to add depends on what your soil needs. You want to have a humus level in your soil of between 5 and 8 percent so you need to add enough orgnaic matter (that includes compost) to get there.
    You can use old hay as a mulch and how deep that mulch needs to be again depends on the conditions you have. Little rain and many days of very hot temperatures indicates a need for a pretty deep mulch while cooler weather with lots of rain indicates not much mulch would be needed.

  • 16 years ago

    Eric, I like your synopsis so much, I'm going to write it into my garden journal as a reminder. For amounts of compost to lay on top of scratched/amended soil, I think 2-4" is probably in the ideal range.

    I have no experience with hay, but I've heard others report that hay might have seeds that will sprout and create a weed issue. But some people have used hay as mulch with success. If you have a choice, I'd recommend straw, but if you have access to cheap/free hay, I'd use it one way or the other.

    I'm using grass clippings as a mulch on the compost.

  • 16 years ago

    Treenut, you'd better find out first whether the vegetable you intend to plant can withstand the goodness of what your compost consists of. Composts generally have high amounts of nitrogen and some vegetables cant take so much of that element, they might wither or not produce anything or produce too much foliage and no fruit.
    Some vegetables resent compost in even medium strengths.