Hey,Mike. I'm almost embarrassed to post considering my verbosity on the Puddling Clay thread. Looks like I'm first up today and while I can suggest here, I'll definately get kicked to the side by the guys who live for technical stuff or plumbing. I'm going to assume your pumps are external. In zone 6 you should not have a problem with the bottom intake icing up but it sounds like the streams are going to be your major problem area and depending how deep the skimmer is, it could freeze as well. Here, in zone 5 the ground has just begun to freeze and any water flowing over it will lose heat really fast, much faster than the water that is circulating in the pond itself. In fact my thermometer says the water temperature at 2' is still 40oF while the top of the water is trying to freeze and will as soon as I switch off the pumps. If it was me, I would play around with some thermometers at the beginning and end of the stream and see just how much heat is getting lost. I don't know how deep or long the streams are but I would think about turning one off for the rest of this winter (if not both)and covering the other like an enclosed chute, to prevent any more heat loss than absolutely necessary. Of course that won't be pretty but mountain streams freeze before the flatlander creeks anyway. Sandy

Surface ice should not be a problem for a pond without fish. I would worry about your streams getting redirected. Ice build up and particularly snow can easily shift the flow of a stream. At the volume you are pumping, a slight change in direction could empty your pond in minutes.

I had an ice dam start to back up my waterfall a few years ago and I now shut it down before the cold weather arrives.

I never had more then seven inches of ice on my pond although I do use a bubbler.

Mike, Johnkr's caution about ice dams being created and water being diverted away from your pond, is worth noting.
There have been many posts about this happening in ponds, where the waterfalls/streams, are left running all winter, in the colder regions.
There again you will probably see post from other pond owners, who say they leave their waterfalls/streams running all winter without any negative happenings.

It could be a gamble, but if you feel your streams are such, that there could be little or no chance of ice damming and subsequent water loss, then go for it.
I would be keeping an eagle eye on the streams just in case.
But remember most freezing temperatures happen after dark:-(

As the others stated an ice cover on the pond's surface should not effect the flow through the bottom suction pipes.
"Horton"

Hi - I have always wondered exactly what an ice dam was until I woke up this morning and looked at my pond. It is 8 degrees F. The falls are pretty though.

Maybe this is not the best idea I have had in a while. When I read about ponders running all winter, I failed to note that it is only in Fl and southern Ca?

Here is how I led myself to this point. My pumps are external and are supposed to be fine in the winter. They are in an insulated pumphouse. My streams are each 3-4.5' wide with several falls each, and my volume is roughly 5000 gph per stream (can go higher--or lower of course). I also have roughly 100'+ of pipe carrying the water. And I forget, a 6x8' upper filter pond fed by a falls coming from underground.

With all that, my "thinking" was the amount of water and velocity would keep me running just fine, ice of course, water in tunnels from time to time, but nothing could freeze solid.

Looking a little scary right now but that might be the fact that this is my first time seeing it like this. Horton, I grew up on the NY/Ontario border--I know winter and I thought about the hydro dams looking like my pond now. Ah, but it has been a very long time, and I forgot about ice jams and the like.

Are my assumptions wrong, in theory? I don't know about temperature changes Sandy, when I took physics Newton hadn't been born. I do know something but maybe not the right thing.

The consensus here is I should shut down for the winter. But also that the water should be OK to be pulled in from the pond and if it doesn't freeze mid-course, out it comes and it is the ice dam to be my nemesis? I know where it will be too.

I could tear down and winterize in 2-3 painful hours and admit defeat. I am a competitive person (stubborn, compulsive?) willing to wait it out. It can get worse than it is with days or weeks of really cold temps.

A last question right now. My dam may develop in a pool above one final fallstone--that's what it looks like now. The water is only a few inches deep. Could I put any kind of bubbler (assume no heater on the liner) here. If I can keep this partly free I might survive.

Post some pics later.

Thanks for your comments and help. Believe me, I am not ignoring your insight and experience--why post?--but trying to understand the variables and my (risky?) options.

Mike

Mike,I would guess that we all understand your dilemma.
But in the end you will be the one to decide if you take the chance or not, of a an ice dam being created and the consequences of that happening.

You know your pond, how your streams run and where the trouble spots MAY be. And that is what you will have to base your decisions on.
I have often thought, many times, about leaving my waterfall running for the winter. Then seeing how the ice can form a dam and divert water away from the pond so quickly, I chicken out on the idea.
It would be a real wake up call for me, to see an empty pond first thing on a cold winter morning. LOL
I hope everything goes without a problem for you and your pond. There is nothing like the sight of the water rolling down a stream, bordered by snow covered banks. I can not fault you for wanting to have that pretty view in your garden.
"Horton"

Today's Lesson: It was 12 F when I went out, water froze instantly when I broke the ice.

The water level was quite low but I saw no signs anywhere of overflow through the snow. Then I realized that a significant amount of water was now ice.

The skimmer intake was blocked by screening to stop leaves and the screen was freezing over as the water dropped. The skimmer was only providing limited water.

I removed the screen, threw in a hose to top the pond off and the skimmer started doing what it does and there was a surge of water in the streams and ice began to let the water flow freely. The streams are deep, 6-12" purposely to prevent overflow. Shortly all was normal.

The one thing I wanted to avoid in running in the winter was having to go out and top it off when it was 12 or whatever--turning water supply on then off, draining hose, wet and cold. That will be part of the process for this winter pond as water keeps changing states.

The lesson learned today is that I need to keep the water flowing vigorously to overcome the ice blockages and I should be OK. Changing water level, which can be abrupt overnight, will have to be monitored, with an eye on the skimmer.

I took a couple of pictures of the icy situation and will post them later if anyone is interested.

You folks were right on with your advice and I hope I found the problems specific to the set-up and will be OK until the next problem, of course.

Mike

Horton - for most of my life I was an avid boater. The only problem I ever had was that the season was too short. I did my best to lengthen it to the point of pulling one out in a blizzard and getting frozen in NY Harbor for the winter with the first ice there in over 20 years. So there is my good judgment dealing with the seasons lol

Your comments strike home. Of course it is my choice, of course I will try it and hope to work out and anticipate kinks now, of course the surprises I never anticipated.

The unnerving comment is that it sounds almost inevitable I will experience an ice dam. You've got me thinking about that. And where my trouble spots MAY be. Losing water is scary because I only have one neighbor within sight or sound of my pond - 40 feet away, downslope with a big patio to become an ice rink I suppose.

I am thinking that with vigilence, wide and deep streams, a solid flow, and much dumb luck I will do alright. But please tell me, are there signs such a dam is developing--early warning? Is it wise to keep ice broken up in streams or is that worse?

Here are summer and winter pictures of part of my landform. If you folks have any comments, see any potential trouble spots, I sure would appreciate the help.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/mgeca/th_ForumPics001-1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/mgeca/th_FirstIce007.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/mgeca/th_ForumPics004-1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c267/mgeca/th_FirstIce011.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Thanks all - look forward to hearing some more if interested (and pics come through)

Mike

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That's better. Most of what looks like water off the final fall stones is ice, but once I turned the volume up it is mostly water.

In the third and fourth pictures there is a flat pool area behind the fall stone. That is where I see potential trouble.

The streams are deep--will that help?

Mike

Mike, didn't mean to unnerve you. LOL
It was just the chicken inside me coming out on the side of caution. My concern is that people read posts where other pond owners run their systems all winter without mishap and decide "Hey he can do it", why can't I?" and unfortunately, they end up being in trouble! So I tend to try and point out the possible heartbreaking scenario that could occur.

Your streams are beautiful, both with and without the snow covering along the banks. You have certainly put a lot of work and effort into design and creation of those streams.

I figure with a good volume of water going over those falls you should be okay.
I would venture [read "gamble"] to say that the sides of your streams look quite deep enough and should compensate for any ice build-up along the edges.
I would also imagine you would see potential trouble spots, where ice is starting to cause diversion of the water. They could be taken care of, by even placing a flat stone or two to in the right place to re-divert the water.

So keep the eagle eye open anyway and stay out of New York harbour between November and April unless you like ice fishin'. ;-)
"Horton"

Horton - Thank you for the nice compliments on my streams. As they really took on an appearance this past summer after 2.5 years of effort, I said, I like this, lots of people run all winter...as you say.

I regret my brash attitude based on too little knowledge. But you didn't really frighten me too much -lol-just gave me the info I was posting for.

Now it is snowing hard and ironically there is very little to see--snow in the streams with water running underneath. At least the water is still coming over the falls.

My immediate problem is the skimmer, pretty big. Since it skims from the surface and the surface is ice, the intake isn't as it should be--I don't think. I can't tell if the 2" pipe is sucking water or not, but the water level isn't down in the pipe area and water is flowing in through the bellows.

The skimmer and a 2" retro bottom drain go to one pump, joining together just past their respective sticking gate valves. The warning always is not to restrict flow prior to the pump for more than a short time. Both pumps are external.

Do you think a slower flow from the skimmer puts a strain on the pump? Could I close (maybe) the gate valve and just let the other line provide the water with no bad effect? Obviously a bit concerned about playing with those valves given their difficulty in operation.

I'd like to get the skimmer out of the loop until conditions ease--it will freeze but did so last winter with no problem.

Or, could I put somekind of bubbler/heater in front of (inside?) the skimmer?

I am confused about water flow, what is best under the varying circumstances. My instinct is to leave as is or reduce a bit. On the other hand, I have another 5000 gph to throw in until my wife sees the electric bill and I end up in an igloo by the pond.

I think I will lower the pond 2-3 inches as water is too close to the top of the bellows opening for these conditions, in my opinion.

During one of my regular visits to the window during the night - sleeplessinpa, where are you Sandy?, chip in - I decided to shut the whole thing down for the winter, just nurse it until a thaw, just another of my "no problem, we can do this" decisions. Nah, if I can nurse it to a thaw I will have experience to finish the experiment. One hopes!

So, I am stuck until it is warm enough to dismatle without instant water freezing and have to live with it. OK. Any thoughts on resolving the skimmer issue, water flow?

Thanks for comments on depth of streams--the intent was to prevent overflow and I hope...eagle eye the rule of the days.

I dreamt I was in NY Harbor last night LOL--more anon, its snow angel time.

Mike

Mike that is wonderful!!!!! You have given me new ideas for my foutrh water feature this spring. Mind you mine are small ponds compared. What a great waterfall and pond. Two years it took you. How much rock I am wondering? Thanks for posting the pictures. Barb

Thank you Barb. My pond isn't very big compared to the streams, but it was all the space I had to work with. A big part of one season was spent digging the pond and installing a ground water drainage system and overflow system. Water was within an inch of the surface at times. Then a filter pond, streams, lots of hiddens like a 5' concrete retaining wall to hold back mudslides in one location.

If you want a little better look, go to the Gallery and look at my post New Pond in Late Summer.

Rocks? Check the Gallery post. I am guessing around 6 pallets (9 tons) and then all the huge rocks (many of which are not in these photos)- may 3-4 pallets worth bought by the pound.

All the rocks were carried from an alley street behind us to the pond site. About 100' and more. Took three days to get the large vertical stones in place.

That it gives you inspiration is flattering. I bet your water features would inspire some of my work too. In fact, much of it is derivative and it seems we all owe each other some thanks for advice and inspiration.

You have any pics to post--great to see some.

Thanks again for the kind words - Mike

Mike, my skimmer freezes up every winter but since the bottom drain piping is connected to the same line I don't worry about losing water flow.
In any case I just use a 500 GPH pump to keep the flow going and the pond surface free of ice. A different scenario than your system.
I by-pass the waterfall completely, with a half inch pipe directly into the pond from the 500 GPH pump that is located in the 50 gallon sump.
I think maybe you should take the skimmer out of the picture until next spring, if it is freezing up already.
"Horton"

Mike, my skimmer freezes up every winter but since the bottom drain piping is connected to the same line I don't worry about losing water flow.
In any case I just use a 500 GPH pump to keep the flow going and the pond surface free of ice. A different scenario than your system.
I by-pass the waterfall completely, with a half inch pipe directly into the pond from the 500 GPH pump that is located in the 50 gallon sump.
I think maybe you should take the skimmer out of the picture until next spring, if it is freezing up already.
"Horton"

Horton - I am past the panic button at last. I was readying my pond--moving rocks out of streams that cause splashing, cleaning everything, right tools at hand, the usual. It was nice, temps in the upper 30s, a little skim ice in the morning. Then I woke up to 8 F and everything had iced up over night. That's what you said--that's when nature gets you, while you sleep.

I never anticipated it would happen like that--I saw a gradual process with all my water staying basically open. To find everything buried and have no idea what was happening or what,if anything, I had to do.

Today I was back in stride, evaluating systematically based on the help from everyone here. Good flows even under snow, no build-up anywhere, and my skimmer is working perfectly. When full to the top of my overflow, the water is within an inch of the top of the skimmer opening--I lowered the pond an inch and all is fine with the skimmer.

We are looking at 40s up to mid-50sF next week so the ice will melt into the pond, go into the overflow and I will have my pond back to usual. Until next time.

Now I will be prepared in my head for the next time. I will know what to look for, look out for, to add water as ice forms, skimmer, etc. Less fear of the unknown trashing an expensive toy.

I think I said when it thaws I will shut it down. Strike that--I'm in for the winter or disaster, whichever comes first.

You said something about being chicken, conservative with stuff like this. I don't buy it at all. Being prudent and informed and acting in your best interest is smart. Only the individual can determine what is in the best interest and act on it (or, as some might do, ignore). You have your comfort zone, I've not found mine altho I have many advanced degrees from the school of hard knocks LOL You've been around ponding for a while, I'm at a point of experiencing firsts still. Less reckless and impulsive as I "mature" more prone to these little worry bouts and then still pushing on.

A couple of questions. One, you mention shutting down skimmer if I am having ice problems. Does that mean close the gate valve if I can, let the second intake to the pump provide the water? It seems as long as I have one pipe working that closing off the second doesn't constitute cutting down flow on the intake.

Your set-up with 500 gph pump and 1/2" hose. How is that arranged so it keeps your pond free of ice? I have thousands of gallons dumping in each end and that doesn't keep much open. I'm interested in trying something to keep the pond fairly free. Could you help me here?

It's really nice to have this kind of help, a sympathetic ear, folks to calm a dizzy old guy down and set him on the right course.

Mike

I have been delaying turning off the pumps since DH likes the way the water freezes coming out of the skippy. I figured since the pond was as full as it can get I could get the shopping done before there was enough of a dam to make a difference. WRONG! By the time I got back the water had dropped almost six inches. Fortunately there was a hose in the basement that was still flexible. I knocked some leaves into the water when I was putting the hose in and I am thinking of not taking them out since I don't want to disturb the fishies any more than necessary. That may be a decision I will regret in the spring.
Ice is going to form anywhere there is the slightest splash and anywhere the water surface is in contact with air temps at or below freezing. It is fascinating to watch the crystallization process happening. I don't think the volume of water is the essential element when an ice dam occurs, it is the amount of surface exposed to the freezing temps and where there is a substantial splash the water freezes really fast because the splash itself exposes more surface area. Really turbulent water may stay open longer but it has a different pattern than slower water as dwell time is less. By the time the water reaches that last fall it has lost a lot of heat calories which is why it seems to ice up so quickly(if I am guessing corectly).
Oh, those rocks are nice! They say home to me. Maybe if I am a good girl, DH will make me a gift of a couple of pallets of rock slabs for Xmas. Sandy

Your stream is lovely, especially the winter pictures. I have a similar size stream with similar flow, but I opted to not leave it running all winter. It was simply too stressful for me to worry about it. The only other thing I will add to what has already been said is to caution you on the danger of power loss. If you lose power long enough for the water in the pipes to freeze, you run the risk of them cracking.

Best of luck to you - I too have read tons of posts where people have kept their systems running all winter. So I guess it can be done. For me, it was just too much to worry about ;o).

Good day Mike, Yes I believe you could shut down your skimmer and the flow from your bottom suction pipes will be enough for your pumps to do their job without a problem.

The small pump I use for winter is, as I mentioned before, situated in my 50 gallon sump that is fed by 3" ABS piping, underground, from the bottom drain of the pond.
The 1/2" hose goes from the pump in the sump, under the decking next to the pond and ends up about six inches below the surface of the water.
I have a short piece of PVC pipe attached to the 1/2" hose, that sits at about a 45° angle, pointing up toward the surface of the pond.
This creates a strong stream of water roiling across the surface,which in turn keeps a large opening in the surface ice.
The pond does have ice around the edges most of the winter but the small pump circulating the water, keeps the pond free from freezing too deep. There is constant circulation between the pond, via the bottom drain to the sump drum and back through the pump to the pond's surface.

In the spring I take the 500 GPH pump out of service and operate two larger submersible pumps, that pump to the filter system and the waterfall. One of the pumps is a 2000 GPH @ 129 watts, the other is 900 GPH @ 65watts, [approx] they are controlled through a timer and relays and by-pass switches, to run alternately.
I figure there is no need to have the large pump running constantly. So to cut down on energy use the pumps run alternately 24/7.
I hope that simplifies my set up for you.

Sandy, Ah the stand-by "still flexible" hose, ready in the basement! Yes siree, got one too, since being caught short one cold winter, when the water level in the pond dropped for some undertermined reason and I had to do an emergency top up from the laundry tub faucet.
Good plan.
"Horton"

Ah Autumn - you made my day; I temporarily ran out of things to stew over LOL. I did forget about power outage possibilities and have read several posts, but usually in relation to loss of oxygen for fish. Highly unusual here but of course possible when we have the blizzard of 08 and four feet of snow obscuring the pond! Not buying a generator, maybe a treadmill for local kids to "play" on.
There's one of those uncontrollables.

I have seen pictures of your pond/stream and it is really special. You have a great setting with the distance and twists and turns possible with topography. I enviously took inspiration from your pictures.

Sandy, I can tell you some of those slabs weigh close to half-a-ton and getting them to the site and in place was awful--give me a lever long enough and I can move the world. Whatever. You had to be a very good girl to get some of those. The cliche, be careful what you ask for.

I sort of understand what you are saying about heat loss, top to bottom. I remember an irony from physics that changing state from liquid to solid actually involves heat somehow.

I removed all the stones that were causing splashing in the summer, generally those covering the liner on the side of the stream, on the outside of the bends. I also cut back water flow modestly in an attempt to keep water on the stream bed. My uninformed thoughts about volume and velocity of flow were that too slow could get covered over easily but faster would always move snow or go beneath it, flowing. It worked this time--but even a blind dog can tree a critter once in a while.

Horton, I do understand your arrangement now. One of my handicaps was that I had no room for any buried barrels, containers of any type. Had I known! we installed a patio before I decided on a pond, it could have been smaller and the pond environment larger. Otherwise constrained by walkway, fortuitous storm water drainage system and slope. and more ground water than can be imagined (why the ground water system is there and no water evidence in an 85 year-old house, knock on wood). I started a modest 6'x9' pond and ended up as you see. So by-passing the falls would require a whole different approach, if possible even.

My skimmer quite circulates the surface water as I observe everytime leaves fall in. I was banking on that fact to keep the pond surface ice-free.

I have a pump ready if I need to pump down some, another hose ready to top off. Now I add extra care looking for ice dams forming, thinking of measures to protect against freezing if I lose my power--and that is probably the short list of what I should know--the unknown awaiting.

It is thawing now, almost back to "normal" conditions. You can bet I am saving this post for the next freeze. The die is cast this time, better informed or foolhardy as I may be. Hopefully smarter when I re-vamp in the spring?

Time for a swim-the microbes must be inactive right now, right Sandy?

Mike

Mike, if you can take a swim in your pond now there isn't a microbe alive that could bother you, lol!!
This Global Warming thing is starting to get me a little crazy. 24 hours after I turned off the pumps because the ice was starting to take over, everything has thawed out again. Auggh! The fish are swimming and the sleet storms that were supposed to hit us last night are nowhere in sight. I suppose I might be a tad early in my expectations. The first year I had fish in the pond I wound up draining the water and catching the fish to take them to somewhat warmer quarters in the garage on Christmas day. Horton may remember that. I was complaining about the stock tank heater I had been using for years wouldn't turn off and all the shrubs around the pond were sporting a lovely frost from all the steam that was escaping the pond. Even after Horton told me how to reset the thermostat I was too cowardly to risk trying to keep it going.
Now I have to admit that it wasn't really steam it was instead, fog that formed because the water temps were higher than the air temps. The effect was lovely but rather unnerving to someone who had spent the previous twenty five years in Wisconsin.
You might be interested in the first serious frozen dam I had to contend with in Wisconsin. It was early March and the first spring in our new earth shelter home. I was on the phone in the kitchen, talking to the contractor, when our dog started to step down into the living room. She jumped back in a panic and I looked down to see the whole expanse of carpet waving up and down. I told the contractor I wanted him there in the next hour with a jackhammer and a good pump. I hung up and went looking for the Little Giant pump I had stashed in my house and garden hope chest. All the heat vents in the house were in the floor and they were all full of muddy water which came from the 10 foot wide swale that was dug behind the house to redirect the spring melt into the woods. Sometime after the swale was finished and the real winter freeze began, someone had dumped a load of rock, dirt and other debris across the end of the swale. There was a lovely waterfall coming over the side of the hill almost directly into the cut in the foundation for the utilities and from there into the ductwork. It took a week to get all the water out of the ductwork and the carpets and even longer to get rid of the mildew and moisture. If that was not lesson enough, it happened again when I was in Colorado with the boys to attend a wedding. My sisters were all within earshot when my DH called and demanded I do something about it. I won't say anything more except my sisters never again failed to believe anything I might say about his reaction to a household crisis. I just wish I had thought to give him the number of the contractors cleaning service. Sandy

Just wanted to say your set-up is soooo beautiful.
You have truly created a backyard retreat. Looking forward to seeing more photos
this spring/summer of your creation. Great job!

Joann

cliff and joann - thank you for the compliment. I enjoy all the pictures ponders post and find all of their efforts interesting and attractive in some special way. How people adapt to their physical setting is of interest to me, along with the use of space, personal aesthetics, budget and all the rest. Ponders move tons of stone and deserve a blue ribbon for the effort.

Autumn, your advice is turning the tide slowly here despite my making lame jokes about power outage. I told my DW she has the final vote in what I do here and she said, close down or you will worry and fret yourself to a terrible state over things you can't control anyway. Power outage got her I think. Flowing ice water is all in the pond now, not the ponder. Who would have thought.....

Sandy, I have summer property on eastern end of Lake Ontario. On a 75 degree day the Friday following Thanksgiving some 25 years ago (snowed 16 inches same day the next year), I was persuaded that I should have the last swim of the season. As I waded in I knew this wasn't to be pleasant. About to back out, I heard a chicken clucking chorus from the shore-loving family trying to freeze-dry me. The instant I hit the water I knew I had made another bad mistake. No microbes.

I have long been interested in your earth shelter home. It seems that was the time alternative living styles were popular, energy efficient. It seems it took courage, perhaps against convention, perhaps people considering you unusual, so to speak. Very solid ecological choice as it seemed at the time. That is quite a story of a river of mud running through, however it got in the residence. I always wanted a geodesic dome for the possibilities of using and rearranging space. With the right setting, a wonderful pond could complement a dome beautifully.

- Mike

Sorry I gave you yet another thing to worry about, Mike. But it does make for an easier winter for us ponders when we don't have to worry about any harm coming to our beloved ponds over the winter...

Last year was my first winter with my pond. It was an extremely mild winter at first so I kept everything running much longer than I expected to. We did have a few very cold nights in December where I woke to incredible ice build-up, but I was always checking the extended weather forecast and, if it was supposed to warm up again after a cold spell, I took the risk of leaving it on. But boy did I worry!!

I did eventually shut down my system on a mild day in early January - and it was not a day too early. Within 2 days of shutting down we got a horrible ice storm and lost power for 3 full days.

Again, I'm not trying to worry you unnecessarily. I do know many people leave their ponds running. But I tend to be a bit of a worrier so it was just a whole lot easier on me to know that my pond would be safe for the winter.

Hey Mike, The Earth Shelter or whatever name you call them are really a small nitch in real estate and the Dome Home and Foamhouse and the used tire home are even smaller. It's one of those things you either love or hate. I loved it and DH hated it. I've never been worried about people thinking I'm strange. Some of the best people I have known were really strange. I was interested in making the design work and my Accountant DH was interested in the energy savings that were promised.
My oldest son had a writing class in college and used our house as a major part of a storyline. The instructor handed it back and insisted he should write about something that was more familiar. The house he described was too unusual. When my son gave him pictures, the instructor thought it had been Photoshopped. The house was a joy to me, and a financial disaster when it came time to sell. Ditto for the Dome home in the area. For the first few years we had tours organized by the Power company and strangers barging in claiming they thought it was a model home as well as people who arranged to see the house privately. There were were six outsize sliding glass doors and a 32 foot greenhouse that was part of the finished architechtural design and part of the heating and cooling systems. We got awards for design and energy efficiency and rebates on taxes and an interesting 20 years in the Wisconsin woods. The folks who have it now got a bargain. Sandy

Hi - I guess I am a worrier, one of those traits that accentuate as you get older. Could be worse. I may have overstated a little, tongue in cheek.

Anyway Autumn, this is my first winter, sort of. I had everything running initially last November but without some trial time I didn't dare try for a winter run. This year I know the system and the reliability and figured why not--spent a lot of money on so-called 24/7 365 or whatever the cliche is, pumps, must be running is the normal thing to do.

My system couldn't be simpler--3 intakes including big skimmer to two pumps, 3 pipes uphill, few valves. Overflow system. When conceived, my goal was easy to install, easy to maintain, easy to drain.

My three delivery pipes each go uphill constantly to their outlets in the streams/pond. They are 3" pipes, meaning they don't fill up, just reduce friction head.

Last year when I disconnected (had but one pump then), I disconnected the pump and all the water in the pipes came back-flowing. Not fun, got real wet, but effective.I blew the pipes out from the top with a leaf blower, a little water came out, that was that. This year one extra pump and 3" line, same gravity set-up.

My thinking now is to just press on, enjoy whatever scene the winter presents, eagle eye on things, hope for no outage. But with an outage I need to quick disconnect pumps (being protected in my little pumphouse), let the water backflow, take pumps inside. A ball valve or two could be at risk but they are in the ground in boxes and simple to replace.

How does this sound as a plan? Seems awful simple if not a little uncomfortable at 3am, of course, in freezing rain.

Of course, for no reason other than I just feel like it, like Autumn I could always give it up on mild day in January.

What am I overlooking, underestimating? Look forward to shared thoughts.

Mike

Theres just to many other post on here to read them all so I dont know if anyone else said this before me . If I were you , I'd turn off all the pumps for the winter . I have 7 ponds for the past 10+ years and my filter and pumps are turned off of the winter . One reason is the warmer water is on the bottom of the pond were the fish stay and second , if your pond freezes , the water you are pumping out will continue to freeze to a point were there migt not be enought water left in your pond . Just buy yourself a few air pumps that you use for indoor fish tanks and use them to keep an air hole open in your pond . thats all I;ve done for years . Dont forget to cover the air pump from rain and snow . I cut a soda bottle in half and stick the pump inside . Rick