A tandum dump truck load will get you started.

Johm

LOL! Thats what I thought!

You only need to put on 1" of compost. If in addition you add a dusting of slow release nutrients such as soya meal or canola meal you can grow most things successfully.

Here's a bit of arithmetic for for figuring how much you need. (John is correct, BTW)

Let's say you have 2400 square feet of planting area and you want to amend the upper six inches of soil. You need a maximum cover of three inches of compost. That comes to 600 cubit feet of compost or a bit more than 22 cubit yards (27 cu.ft in one cubic yard.) Two dump truck loads will give you that. Standard bed sizes are 7 and 11 cu.yds of amendment.

I usually apply about an inch of compost over my beds twice a year and work into the upper soil. This is my maintenance rate of application; these beds of veggies have been in production since 1995.

Here is more math for you to think about, if you want to add 2 tons per acre (sorry I think in acres) which despite what all the dump truck drivers above think is a fairly significant application, you will need 225 lbs. Of course that is dry weight, figure somewhere around 1000 lbs wet weight which really isn't all that much, nice big back yard pile (until you decide to move it then it will seem like a lot). Do that every year and I would think you will be in pretty good shape.

Without more information I, nor anyone else for that matter, can accurately assess your requirements. I am not a gardener but I'm thinking I should need to know a few things first before I send you off to obtain truckloads of anything.

What type of garden, flower, veggie, perennial plants, other? How long has it been a garden and have you been adding any OM to it in the past? What makes you think it needs compost, poor growth, bad tilth, other? Do you till? Others will ask about worms, we've pretty well debunked that one. If you have them, great, if not, then that may not necessarily mean much. Do you need to have this garden all spiffed up this year or can it be a work in progress so to speak?

When you ask about the size of the compost pile, are you talking finished compost? (Which is often 50% of what you started out with as raw materials.) Did you want to buy it or make it?

With some information we might be able to come up with a few plans that you might try. Without it, we might be leading you down the garden path (pun intended).

Lloyd

Ok pt03,
What type of garden, flower, veggie, perennial plants, other? Vegetable.

How long has it been a garden and have you been adding any OM to it in the past? It has been a garden area for years before I took it over. It had not been used as such for about 6 years. I don't know what OM is. I have grown winter rye each year. Last year and this year.

What makes you think it needs compost, poor growth, bad tilth, other? I figure, sooner or later, it will need or benefit from it.

Do you till? Yes. Fall and spring.

Plenty of worms!

Do you need to have this garden all spiffed up this year or can it be a work in progress so to speak? Garden produced wonderfully last year. I suspect it doesn't need to be "spiffed up".

When you ask about the size of the compost pile, are you talking finished compost? (Which is often 50% of what you started out with as raw materials.) Did you want to buy it or make it? I would love to make it. I suspect I do not have enough material to do so. Tons of oak leaves. And of course residue from garden.

Thanks Lloyd.

I disagree with pt03, I have been a gardener for 50yrs and you donÂt need a lot of fancy information to get started. At one time my garden was 20Â X 70" and I added 4 cubic yds of finished compost per yr. ItÂs almost impossible to add to much compost. Any organic material you can get your hands on will be beneficial as long as itÂs not toxic. If you need credentials I can take photos of the veggie harvest in Aug. and Sept.

John

Ferti-man, 2 tons/acre is pretty light application may 4 cu.yds of finished compost. At least out here we tend to shoot for between 5-12 yards/acre, bedding up to close to twice that concentration. At least for organic producers in Cal. San Joaquin Valley and on good lettuce and brassica ground. Where are you doing business?

You only need 1" of compost over your garden. Even if you think you need more, calculate for 1" and then scale up. Despite what you hear, you can add too much compost to a garden or field.

For 1" of compost you will need:

35' * 70' * (1/12)' / 27 cubic feet per cubic yard
= 7.56 cubic yards

The bulk density varies but 800 lbs. per cubic yard is in the ball park:

7.56 * 800 = 6,048 lbs of compost

Assuming an N-P-K value of 1-1-0.5, we have 1 lb. of N for every 100 lbs. of compost. Nitrogen is usually the limiting nutrient factor, but you could also calculate for P or K. Also your compost may be better or worse. Anyway, we have:

60.48 lbs. of N

Since there is only available N in the Dry Matter (DM) we have to know the % of water. Assuming a good compost of 30% moisture content, we have 70% DM :

60.48 * 0.7 = 42.336 lbs. of N

The next factor to consider is nutrient release rate. Compost is a slow release fertilizer. Assuming a 30% release in the first year, the amount of N available is further reduced.

42.336 * 0.3 = 12.7 lbs of N

Most sources will say that you need 4-6 lbs. of N per 1,000 square feet per year for healthy plant growth. So based on that requirement and your 2,400 square foot garden, you will have:

12.7 / 2.4 = 5.3 lbs of N ---------> BINGO!

There are some assumptions about your compost and if you have different numbers, you can refine these calculations.

Next year, there will be some nutrient release from this year's application and you will need to estimate that.

If you are growing high demands plants, then supplement that part of the garden with fertilizer. Seed meal is a good choice.

John

As I stated I am not a gardener, nor a financial expert nor a lawyer. But I do know that before one gives any kind of advice they should probably know more than what was presented. I would not advise mailman to spend his money nor time on something he does not need imminently. Sure OM is good, and if you have it, by all means add it, but if the garden doesn't need it immediately, then I wouldn't go out of my way to add more. (Meaning buy it.)

As you know, with yourself being a steward of the soil, OM (organic matter) is vital to healthy plants. I have just recently learned this in the past few years. I was raised in the country and worked on several large farms but it was never explained to me. We used tons of fertilizer because that was the way it was done. Kinda embarrassing to admit that, but that's the way it is.

Now for mailman, one question I left out was climate. But this this is what I think I would do if I were you, based on my climate. From what I understand, veggies are more demanding than flowers as far as soil goes. Having read that your garden produced well, it is probably not crucial that radical steps be taken this spring. If you have some compost now, then by all means work it into the garden this spring. Over the summer re-build the compost pile with the intent to use that material in the fall along with any bags of shredded leaves/grass mix you can beg or steal (try to get it without any chemical applied). This I would also work into the garden in the fall when you till. Theoretically the tilled in material would decompose in the soil and be nicely broken down by spring. I would also build another compost pile in the fall with the intent of also using it in the spring as necessary. If you can store some leaves for use as mulch once the garden sprouts that might be good too. With this type of cycle the OM should oughta be okay. I would not at this point call up and order a truckload of compost.

As far as fertilizer, it might become necessary, I don't know. I would bet there are tons of books about vegetable garden nutrient requirements. I might pick up one of those at the library and study it over the winter. Might also look at soil Ph, another area I know little of.

It took us farmers a few years to deplete our soils, you probably didn't deplete yours (you have worms). fertilizersalesman said it well, do something every year and you should be in good shape.

Some folks will be along shortly to advise against tilling. I have no issue with them. I like to till, I like the smell of freshly turned earth, I like the smell of compost. I am willing to suffer the slings and arrows, it won't stop me from turning the earth. To each his/her own.

Lloyd

Disclaimer: I don't grow a garden. (but I would like to)

Do till and do till often. :)

Thanks all for your help. I do have an abundant supply of leaves,however, they are mostly oak and I heard they are to be used sparingly.
I have to till because I use a cover crop of winter rye and it needs to be turned into the soil.

Before anyone can tell you how much you need we need to know how much organic matter is in your soil now. What you want is a humus (residual) level of organic matter of around 5 to 8 percent. How much you need to add to your garden then is determined by that number.
It is an old myth that Oak leaves, or any other leaves, should be used sparingly, add them to your soil with no fear, that cover crop will also add organic matter to your soil and that needs to be considered in computing how much compost you need to add. Generally you need to add, to a fairly decent soil about 1/2 inch of compost to maintain a good, healthy soil, if your current level of humus is in that 5 to 8 percent range.
Also that cover crop does not need to be tilled into the soil, it can simply be cut, or knocked down and covered with newspaper.

IÂm not recommending that anybody go out and buy compost. If you donÂt generate your own and you donÂt live in the desert South West, you should be able to get all you want or need for free.

I worked in research and development for 40 yrs and problem identification/solution was a major part of my job. Prior to society getting there hands on me and molding my little pea brain, I was raised by Pennsylvania Dutch farmers. I participated in and learned there gardening techniques.

PhewwwwÂthat said I guess I should ask what is it about gardening that you enjoy? I am a gardener because I like to get away from social problems, fabricated emergencies and state of the art technologies ect. And the primary reason is to hang onto some tradition (I still use my grandfatherÂs manure fork). If you want some cold hard data on using compost, take a look at what some of the SFG folks are doing, some of witch are using 100% compost. And this summer take a ride and look at some of the Amish gardens. But if you like to garden with the latest technologies and with precision then forget every thing I said on this post.

John

John, I'm with you and your attitude toward gardening. I've been a professional one for a long time and organic farmer for over twenty years. I used to believe a lot of things told to me or I read and discovered on my own what works for me. My gratification about landscape work is either teaching homeowners the joys of gardening or doing gardening for their enjoyment.

Personally I wouldn't buy most any kind of commercial compost other than New Era brand and never a municipal one. Most are poorly made. We make by hand somewhere between 200-250 tons of finished compost a year, nearly all from farm and yard waste recycled from the 11 acre property where the market farm is.

My hesitations about unlimited use of finished compost has to do with need for good drainage and the need for some easily digestible organic material to balance all that carbon prior to cropping. Green manuring is a good solution. The other hesitation has to do with accumulation of boron, arsenic and perhaps some heavy metals that tend to concentrate in the mineral fraction of compost. This is an issue in my semi-arid region with high pH soils and waters.

kimmsr, I can't imagine how I would keep the newspaper down, yet alone see me laying it down over 35' x 70'. That just won't work. I certainly can't wet it to keep it there. the soil takes too long to dry as it is. I think tilling works best for me.

WhooooÂ. why does it take so long for your soil to dry out? That may be the first thing that needs fixin.

John

alot of posts here so I may have missed it but did anyone suggest mailman have his soil tested to see what exactly it's like now. He says the area was a garden years ago so who knows what the conditions are today, it may be in good shape. A current soil test and what is intended to grow will help determine what is needed to be added.

mailman22, I don't quit gardening in the winter. The vegies you see in the plastic containers are growing in 100% semi finnished compost witn no aminities added. Also this compost had no anamil manure in it.


john

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John reminds me of how the French market gardeners used to grow over winter times using fresh manures composting below or beside and below sunken glass houses. Or the layed down manure and bedding in layers topped with soil and allowed to break down for a while before veggies were planted in the soil and topped with bell jars.

Why would anyone want such a large garden plot? Many smaller plots are less work. easier to maintain, and allow a more efficient use of resources. However, no one should ever plunk a bunch of newspaper down on any plot and then go back and cover it, you cover the newspaper as you lay it down so it will stay in place.
That your soil is too wet indicates a lack of sufficient quantities of organic matter, poor drainage, that needs to be addressed. Start by contacting your local office of your state universities USDA Cooperative Extension Service then dig in with these simple soil tests;
1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.
to see what you have and get an idea what you need to do.
Look into changing to a more sensible garden layout of several smaller, like 4 x 4, planting beds that are more manageable.

Here is a link that might be useful: CES offices

A newspaper mulch is a beautiful thing.
This garden is 50 x 100, but I had help.(I hope this photo isn't too large.)
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/annpat/newspaper.jpg[/IMG]

kimmsr, I never said my soil was too wet. What I said was that it takes too long to dry. I should have been more clear and say that I would like to have the soil dry sooner so that I could work it earlier. It is NOT too wet.
I am certain the soil is healthy. I said earlier that I had tons of worms. I would not be exagerating to say a shovelful would produce a healthy meal for a half dozen hens.
I would like to be able to make enough compost to maintain my garden.
Again, everyone, thanks for the replies.

To much is never enough!

You will never produce enough compost to satisfy yourself, and the more compost you have, the more you'll want. There won't be any quenching that thirst. It begins with refrigerator gleanings and ends with you owning your own dump truck.

Here you go, annpat.

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I agree with annpat. I never have enough compost. I top my flower beds in early spring with 2-3 inches. That is the way I maintain my soil tilth. I have a large sweeping flower bed.I am horrible in math so do everything by sight. I also disagree with using oak leaves as a mulch. I have huge oak trees that overhang my garden beds. I leave the leaves there during the winter and remove them at the first warming in late winter or very early spring. I have done the chipping of oak leaves and they still just sit there and make layer upon layer of hard to dig in soil that the bugs love. I get rid of them down the hill!

OH! Thank you nygardener. That was nice of you. I was pretty embarrassed with that just hanging there.