I'll be interested to see what others have to say. The only observation I'll make is that regardless of whether they have blackspot now or not, they will/would have/have had it by the end of this summer or next anyway. You live in what is pretty much "Ground Zero" for summer blackspot infections.

Oh gee... that's real good news! LOL... guess roses aren't a good thing to grow around here... maybe that's why I don't see too many rose gardens?? Hmm.

ttfn
Cheryl.

Hi Cheryl--don't be too upset so quickly. Here is what I would suggest you do to get rid of and then prevent fungus issues with your roses. I have 300+ bushes and this works pretty well for me.
First off you need to get rid of the existing blackspot. You need a 1 or 2 gallon sprayer that can be purchased fairly cheaply at Lowe's, Home Depot, or even some local garden nurseries, or Sam's, etc....You also need a spreader/sticker like Indicate 5 or whatever these places carry. If you can't find a spreader/sticker you can use liquid dishwashing detergent diluted to 1 teaspoon per gallon of water in your sprayer tank. Then you need to purchase and add to the tank some Mancozeb Flowable fungicide also found at these places for about $25 according to the package label dilution instructions. Be sure to put the spreader/sticker in the water first and mix it around and then add the Mancozeb and thoroughly mix it in as well. Spray your roses making sure to get the topside and underside of the foliage. Also spray the ground around the rosebush as many fungal spores lie there inactive until splashed/blown from the ground onto the bush. You need to do this three times three days apart to kill the fungal spores.
Then you need to spray preventatively. This can be expensive depending on the fungicide you use. I use Honor Guard (generic of Banner Maxx), Compass, and Mancozeb for this. The Honor Guard and Compass can be found much cheaper on Ebay than any where else I have found. There are also some cheaper you can get at the big box stores by Bayer and Ortho companies but you would have to spray more often--like every 7-12 days depending on how much fungal pressure you have in your area. Ortho changed the name of their preventative from Funginex to Ortho Pride I think. You can also use Daconil which is available at those places as well. Whichever of the preventative fungicides you choose, just be sure to rotate them every other spraying. There are also some more green or organic type sprays, but I haven't had much if any luck using those types of sprays.
I always use a spreader sticker and then add the Honor Guard and also mix in the Mancozeb, diluting both according to the manufacturer's directions, to the tank sprayer. The next time I spray-about 17-21 days later, I use only the Compass. I rotate the fungicides like this to try and prevent the fungus from becoming resistant to the chemicals. You can mix the Mancozeb with either of the other fungicides with no problems, it's your choice.
I would suggest that you be safe and wear a mask or respirator and long sleeves and pants when spraying. Also keep the pets and kids out of the garden until the spray is all dry. Spray early in the morning is best I think. And I always water my roses thoroughly the day prior to spraying so they are at their absolute best hydration.
A good rule of thumb is to keep your rose bush's foliage dry as much as possible, especially at night. Wet foliage encourages fungal growth. Once a month I do spray all my rosebushes very good with wate all over to rinse off any accumulated dust/dirt and even some of the fungus spores. But, make sure you do that early in the day as well so that the rose bush's have a chance to dry before the cooler temperatures of the night.
THis program has really worked well for me and I am glad to say I have very little problem with fungus in my garden so long as I get started spraying the roses when they first start to leaf out in the spring and stay vigilant with the spray program throughout the entire growing season until the first frost.
Hope this helps you out.
John

If you want to keep the roses, they will need to be sprayed. However, for 4 starter roses, you don't need to go wild. Get a regular spray bottle, buy some Bayer Advanced Disease Control (only at Lowes an look for it with the organic proucts, not that it's organic, but they shelf it there), a bottle is about $14 and with 4 roses will last you the whole year and longer. Mix it and spray these once a week to start, then every two weeks. If you find you like growing roses you can then go whole hog and get a bigger sprayer and all that other stuff. The Bayer is systematic, so once you get on the two week schedule, you don't have to worry about the roses getting wet or staying wet or any of that stuff. I live in Georgia and the BS season is longer here and the Bayer is enough. Be smart and wear gloves and eye protection when spraying.

I second what Buford says....I have 300 roses; mostly HTs and have high BS pressure here. I only use Bayer Advanced Disease Control and it is a great product....even keeps the divas clean and BS free.

Regarding the suggestion to use Mancozeb, the National Institute of Health in their April 2010 newsletter reported on recent Mancozeb health research "Pesticide Use Linked to Thyroid Disease Among Women":

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2010/april/science-intramural.cfm

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

Cheryl, actually there are some noteworthy rose gardens that are legitimate day trips for you. Longwood Gardens in Kennett Square has a nice rose display, so also does Hershey Gardens in Hershey, PA, and the Brooklyn Botanic Garden (and the latter two are larger than the one at Longwood). Those are just the first ones to come to my mind quickly without thinking about it. In addition, Conard-Pyle Nursery, the owner of the "Star Roses" trademark, is in West Grove, PA.

Roses are a blessing and a curse. They are particularly beautiful to their fans, but as with many plants in their family (the "rose family", aka "Rosaceae"), they are rather famously susceptible to more than a few pests. If you live in areas of the country where the warm weather is humid you will contend with blackspot on your roses, but not with rose rust. If you live in areas of the country where the warm weather is dry the opposite occurs.

So it goes.

I want to thank everyone who has replied and offered some help/advice as I was much more upset when I first realized that the roses were infected when purchased. After reading all the replies though has eased my mind that I will have no problems dealing with BS.

I am curious though about this being an area where BS is so prolific because my landlord has about 6 roses that he planted in the hedgerow and that he doesn't care for at all but they don't have ANY signs of BS at all! They get full sun and even though they were purchased for $2.00 a piece from Home Depot and weren't large or even healthy looking they bloomed quite well last summer and are already quite green and have quite a few buds. Hopefull once I get rid of the BS on the roses we bought I won't have to worry about it anymore. You see the roses will be planted in an area that gets full sun and has a regular breeze blowing pretty much all the time.

I will be going to Lowe's anyways as I need some wood and other supplies for my raised bed I'm making so I will be sure to pick up some of the Bayer stuff y'all mentioned.

Once again, thanks so much for all the detailed response! It is appreciated more than y'all probably realize. :-))

ttfn
Cheryl.

mystic_dragon72,

Some roses are more blackspot resistant than others, that would explain your landlords roses not having BS.
You will just have to see how your roses do in your area.
If they continue to get BS, you will have to spray from the time they leaf out in Spring until frost or plant more BS resistant roses. Best of luck!

You will need to treat your roses regularly with the Bayer Advanced Disease Control for Roses, Flowers and Shrubs as per the schedule on the bottle, through September. The fungicide treatment will not erase the existing blackspot damage. It will prevent future outbreaks. You will have to continue treatment, even if no additional spots occur.

Next year, you will start the application about a week after pruning, which will be in early April. Even if the roses look "clean". Blackspot spores are always present in the environment.

I would suspect that your landlord's roses are not hybrid teas and might be Knock Out. Knock Out is disease (blackspot) resistant, and does not usually need a regular fungicide treatment.

Depending on where you are in SE PA, there are many terrific rose growers in your area. Send me an e-mail, and I will put you in contact with them. A couple of them usually have open houses at the end of May.

Also, there are rose shows in the area in June, Moorestown (Moorestown Mall, first Saturday in June), Philadelphia (Morris Arboretun, first Sunday in June), and Kennett Square (Longwood Gardens, second Saturday in June). You can see roses that are grown in the area and talk to the people who grew them in their gardens. Let me know if you want more information.

I have no clue what type of roses my landlord has as I have pretty much no knowledge about how to tell the difference between them and I was never really "into" roses... or any plant that requires a lot of care. Guess my login should have been "Lazy Gardener"!! LOL

Don't get me wrong here I absolutely love the way roses look... I just didn't want the hassles of caring for them. I remember my mother going out twice a day to care for the few rose plants/bushes that she had and thinking to myself that I'll NEVER do this!! HA!! Was I wrong. Turns out my DH is the one that wanted the roses and so he's going to be the one that has to care for them! :-)

I live near Reading, PA in the Oley Valley and have heard of quite a few "professional" gardens that grow roses and have regular shows but I was commenting on the fact that I don't see any homeowners with roses in their gardens.. and if they do have them they're usually climbing roses or bush roses or even "wild" roses that they have cultivated and pruned to make them prettier. I don't know if I'd ever travel specifically to see any gardens... we just don't drive around to places like that as my DH drives for his job and doesn't want to go anywhere on the weekend so we work around the house.

ttfn
Cheryl.

The active ingredient in the Bayer spray is tebuconazole. Even though it is produced by a German company, Bayer, it appears that the European Union has banned it from sale after 2018.

"Permits for 22 substances known to cause cancer, harm human reproduction or damage the hormonal system will not be renewed under the new law. Exceptions will be made only for cases where there is no alternative product, or where the harvest is seriously threatened as a result of the ban.
Most of the pesticides concerned are produced by German chemical industry giants Bayer or BASF, and include Amitrol, Ioxynil, Tepraloxydim, Epoxiconazole, Iprodion, Metconazole, Tebuconazole and Thiacloprid.
It won't happen overnight: two of the fungicides Carbendazim and Dinocap  will be banned already in 2009, but permits for other harmful substances will only run out in 2018."

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/265134

Cheryl, you have e-mail, I sent you the name of a terrific rosarian in the Reading area who can help, and point you to local gardens and members of the Reading-Berks Rose Society who will be glad to help. Reading-Berks RS's rose show is June 13th.

If you don't want to spray, plant the Knock Out shrub roses, which come in several colors.

You will never "get rid of" blackspot on Tamora, Chrysler Imperial, or 99% of other repeating-blooming bush roses. However, you can grow them disease-free by spraying the Bayer Disease Control every two weeks.

Yes, to henry's point, don't drink the Bayer advanced disease control, just spray it on the roses. You'll be fine.

Here is a bed of Knock Out at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. This was the first Knock Out released and it's a rather intense bright pink. There are now Knock Out cultivars in other colors as well, including a much more gentle pale pink and a red.

The comment: "Yes, to henry's point, don't drink the Bayer advanced disease control, just spray it on the roses. You'll be fine." actually is not that far from stateing the actual problem. The concern is not about drinking the pure tebuconazole, it is about drinking water contaminated with tebuconazole after it is sprayed.

Why is there a concern about drinking tebuconazole contaminated water? The first paper below illustrates one of the chemical properties of tebuconazole ("Endocrine disrupting activities in vivo of the fungicides tebuconazole and epoxiconazole"):

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/kfm227v1

The following 2 papers discuss what happens to the tebuconazole after it is sprayed i.e. does it get into the water system and can we remove it:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es8009309

AND

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGF-4XK45HD-G&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F15%2F2010&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1312023362&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fe890bbdbe872113dcd4fc81b3594d2a

henry - thanks for the info on the potential health concerns with the use of the Bayer fungicide although I doubt that it would be an issue with the amount that I'll be using... not to belittle the merit of the problem and I understand that if everyone were to use the same thoughts as I just stated it could have a very detrimental cumulative effect BUT since I live in an area that is surrounded litterly by thousands of acres of farmland I'm pretty sure that the amount of groundwater contamination the farmers are responsible for is far more detrimental than any kind of effect I could have. I do however appreciate the information as it's always good to be completely knowledgable about the chemicals we expose ourself and our families/pets to.

To everyone else that replied recently about the knockout roses... I am going to be treating the plants I have purchased as I think I will have no problems controlling the problem on those 4 plants. I will also be looking into getting the recommended variety for the rest of the bed in order to limit the probability of making the problem worse.

Thanks one and all for reading/commenting... I always appreciate EVERYONE's opinions!

ttfn
Cheryl.

Apparently some feel that homeowner use of tebuconazole (as, for example, contained in Bayer Advanced Disease Control for Roses) is safe. I was curious whether the State of New York had taken a stand on this issue as the following on line seller stated "not for sale in New York" ( http://www.yardlover.com/bayer-advanced-disease-control-for-roses-flowers-and-shrubs-quart-concentrate ).

This is what I could find: a January 10, 2007, State of New York letter to Bayer:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/tcmtb-ziram/tebuconazole/tebucon_den_0107.pdf

In handling any garden chemical, you should wear waterproof gloves, a hat, long sleeves, long pants, and shoes--the main concern is dermal exposure. Women of child-bearing age should be particularly careful. Ideally, get someone else to do the spraying.

The New York regulatory decision said this about tebuconazole as a spray: "a value that can now be considered to provide adequate homeowner protection, as long as homeowners do not use more than 30 gallons of diluted product (0.75 fluid ounces of product per gallon of water) per day." This gives those who spray a gallon every two weeks a rather large margin for error. The regulators turned down the application because they judged tebuconazole was not significantly safer than available products, not because they judged it to be more dangerous.

But synthetic chemicals should always be regarded with a certain amount of suspicion.

michael, thanks for posting that. I was suggesting the Bayer to my mom to use and that's when I found out it was banned in NY State (I'm originally from there). I read that same report. 30 gallons a day? I have 100 roses and use maybe 5 gallons every 2 weeks or for about 6 months out of the year. Do the math, LOL. And originally they had the threshold at 100 gallons a day. As you said, take precautions that are necessary. Thankfully I don't have to worry about the childbearing age thing anymore :)

There were a number of statements in the New York letter in addition to the comparison with other products. The statements should be viewed in context of what is being discussed in that section.

The summary statement FOR THAT SECTION is: 'Based on the limited information that was provided in the registrants response, and from our limited evaluation, the NYSDOH cannot conclude that the Bayer Advanced products pose lesser risks than the alternative products. Given that tebuconazole has carcinogenic potential and overall does not appear to pose lesser risks than the alternative active ingredients, we continue to have reservations about registering these three Bayer Advanced products in New York State.

The next section covered "Environmental Fate Risk Assessment".

The model was based on: "An application rate of 0.007 lb. ai/1,000 ft.2 and 12 applications per season was modeled for groundwater impacts."

The model produced the following: "The model projected breakthrough in year three and steadily increasing values which exceed the NYSDOH proposed drinking water threshold for impacts to human health (6.2 ìg/L) in year nine."

The final summary was: "When used as labeled, this product may cause unreasonable adverse effects to human health and the environment."

Please notice that Bayer apparently did not address the "carcinogenic potential" question.

------------------------------------------

In an earlier post in this thread I documented the problems with tebuconazole in water systems. What about in the air?

Dry tebuconazole has a vapor pressure. If you are not familar solids having vapor pressures, think of moth balls. Of course a moth balls is an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Lets say you decide to cut some sprayed roses and put them on the kitchen table. (I will not discuss the dermal exposure when handeling the plant outside (say to smell the rose) or when carrying the cut flowers into the house. The New York paper touches on the last point.) The question I am now bringing up is: is there the potential that rosarians may be contaminating their inside air with tebuconazole from their roses?

Title: Suitability of small environmental chambers to test the emission of biocides from treated materials into the air.

Authors: Horn, Wolfgang; Jann, Oliver; Wilke, Olaf.

Authors affiliation: Federal Institute for Materials Research and Testing (BAM), Berlin, Germany.

Published in: Atmospheric Environment (2003), 37(39-40), pages 5477-5483.

Abstract: "Biocides are used to protect materials that might be damaged by fungal, microbial or insect activity. The aim of this study is to develop a method for the measurement of these org. compds., which generally have low or moderate vapor pressures. The biocides considered in this study are permethrin, dichlofluanid, tolylfluanid, iodpropinylbutylcarbamat, octylisothiazolinone, tebuconazole and propiconazole. The emission from two com. products (plastic foil, wool carpet) contg. biocides and of seven types of biocidal formulations applied to wood or clay tiles were investigated in 20-l glass emission test chambers. Each chamber test was performed over a period of 100-200 days, and one investigation was conducted over several years. Compared to volatile org. compds., low-volatility compds. show totally different emission curves in chamber tests; maximal emission values may be reached in days or weeks. A period of 3 mo is sometimes necessary for the detn. of area-specific emission rates (SERa's). The SERa's (.mu.g m-2 h-1) from biocide-contg. products were detd. for permethrin (0.006), propiconazole (0.3), dichlofluanid (2.0), tolylfluanid (1.0), octylisothiazolinone (2.5) and iodpropinylbutylcarbamat (2). In most cases, the SERa stayed at its max. value or declined slowly over the test period. Addnl., a chamber test begun in 1994 with a piece of wood treated with a typical mixt. of biocides dissolved in a tech. solvent was continued. SERa's (.mu.g m-2 h-1) for dichlofluanid (0.20), tebuconazole (0.49) and permethrin (0.08) remained detectable after the period of nearly 9 yr during which the sample remained continuously in the chamber. This test proved the very slow decrease of emission of low-volatility compds. like permethrin and tebuconazole."

---------------------------------
Title: Multi-residue analysis of 30 currently used pesticides in fine airborne particulate matter (PM 2.5) by microwave-assisted extraction and liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry.

Authors: Coscolla, Clara; Yusa, Vicent; Beser, M. Isabel; Pastor, Agustin.

Authors affiliation: Public Health Research Centre (CSISP), Valencia, Spain.

Published in: Journal of Chromatography, A (2009), 1216(51), pages 8817-8827.

Abstract: "A rapid, confirmatory method was developed to det. 30 currently used pesticides (CUP) in fine airborne particulate matter (PM2.5) at trace concns. This method includes PM2.5-bound pesticide microwave-assisted extn. (MAE) followed by a direct injection into liq. chromatog.-tandem mass spectrometry (LC/MS-MS). Main parameters affecting MAE extn. (time, temp., vol. of solvent) were optimized using statistical design of expts.; matrix effects were also evaluated. Recovery was 72-109% with limits of quantification of 32.5 pg/m3 for chlorpyrifos; 13.5 pg/m3 for fenhexamid, imazalil, and prochloraz; and 6.5 pg/m3 for the remaining pesticides with a 760 m3 collected air vol. The method was used to analyze 54 samples collected from 3 sites of the atm. monitoring network of the Regional Valencia Government, Spain, in Apr.-July 2009. In total, 19 of 30 pesticides were obsd. in at least 1 sample: omethoate, carbendazim, acetamiprid, thiabendazole, malathion, flusilazole, metalaxyl, azoxystrobin, iprovalicarb, myclobutanil, tebuconazole, triflumizole, cyprodinil, tebufenpyrad, buprofezin, pyriproxyfen, hexythiazox, flufenoxuron, and fenazaquin. Measured concns. were 6.5-1208 pg/m3. To the authors knowledge, 11 detected pesticides were reported for the first time in ambient air."

I have the full paper. Tebuconazole was detected in 7 out of 21 samples at one site and 5 out of 19 samples at a second site.

-----------------------------------------------

Title: Atmospheric trace levels of pesticides in urban area during active treatment period.

Authors: Scheyer, A.; Morville, S.; Richert, J.; Mirabel, Ph.; Millet, M.

Authors affiliation: Laboratoire de Physico-Chimie de l'Atmosphere, Centre de Geochimie de la Surface, UMR 7517 CNRS - Universite Louis Pasteur, Strasbourg, Fr.

Published in: Pesticide in Air, Plant, Soil & Water System, Proceedings of the Symposium Pesticide Chemistry, 12th, Piacenza, Italy, June 4-6, 2003 (2003), pages 811-821.

Abstract: "The authors' study consists in establishing a link between the concns. in pesticides in the air and in the rains in urban and rural zone and the agricultural activities in the Alsace area. As the pesticides expected in the air are present at very low concns., high vol. air collectors (gas + particulate) made at the lab. were used. Atm. pesticides were analyzed by gas chromatog. with ion trap tandem mass spectrometry. Then, a MS/MS method was optimized by parameters such as the radio frequency storage level and the collision-induced dissocn. excitation voltage. With this method, 26 pesticides commonly used in Alsace region were analyzed during a 1st campaign which was undertaken in urban area, before, during and after intensive treatment in maize crops (Apr.-May 2002). From this campaign, alachlor was detected at relatively high concn., during the treatment period (172 and 141 ng m-3 for the sum of the gaseous and particulate phase) but also in lower concn. before and after treatment period (6 ng m-3). This observation can be explained by regional transport of pesticides from surrounding region (Lorraine, western Germany). Some other pesticides were also detected (diflufenicanil, trifluraline, metolachlor, lindane, beta, alpha endosulfan and tebuconazole) but their origin is at the moment difficult to assess."
--------------------------------------
What is the long term effect of exposure to small concentrations when spraying, from drinking contaminated drinking water, and from breathing contaminated air?

This is where the precautionary principle comes in. Of course cancer is one concern, but another concern (particially because of the chemical's ability to stick around) is tebuconazole's behavior as an "endocrine disrupter".

Below are 2 recent examples.

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/kfm227v1

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123321191/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Don't return the roses. Chrysler Imperial is a fantastic specimen with its deep red color and strong perfume. Spraying with fungicide may not help clear the already infected leaves but will prevent it from spreading and defoliating newer growth
For the past couple of years I have alternated between mancozeb, triforine and folpet for blackspot with very good to excellent results. If the product you want is not available in your state/county you can always mail order for it, most will gladly ship it to you. Some local rose growers in my area also use sulfur and/or copper fungicides as well but I haven't tried these. If you want to try folpet, you have to get it in Canada as it is not available in the U.S.

Michael and buford, thanks for translating all that into everyday practical language.

One has to wonder who NY thinks the typical homeowner is who grows roses. Around here, that would mean they grown 3-6 roses! How on earth could they possibly use 30 gal. of Bayer Garden Disease Control on 3-6 roses? It is true that us rose forum types are more likely to grow 65 roses (myself) or 100 roses (buford), but 1-2 gal. per spraying is the most I can make use of.

Of course, there are forum members who grow hundreds and hundreds (and hundreds, etc.) of roses. I have no idea what they do or do not do since I cannot even imagine growing roses in those quantities, but I think it is safe to say that such rose growers are hardly typical home rose growers. Could they possibly use 30 gal. a day?

So somebody help me out. Who sprays 30 gal. of Bayer Garden Disease Control in one day? I can't imagine who NY has in mind as its typical homeowner.

Kate

"26 pesticides commonly used in Alsace region were analyzed during a 1st campaign which was undertaken in urban area, before, during and after intensive treatment in maize crops "

Well maybe they should go after the corn growers, and not the rose growers.

If one link does not work, use:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123321191/abstract?
----------------------------
Buford, the tebuconazole was not found due to its use on corn. They were surprised to find it and do not know where it came from: "Some other pesticides were also detected (diflufenicanil, trifluraline, metolachlor, lindane, beta, alpha endosulfan and tebuconazole) but their origin is at the moment difficult to assess.". The point here that it does escape into urban air. Which means people in an urban area will be breathing it. How much is a rose sprayer, the rest of the family, and his/her neighbors going to be breathing in? I cannot answer this question at this time, but it appears that the value is not going to be zero. This is one reason I recommend the use of the Precautionary Principle when there is some evidence that something can (using New York's statement): "When used as labeled, this product may cause unreasonable adverse effects to human health and the environment."

If you decide to try a copper fungicide it's very important to try it out on only a leaf or two at first and wait for a week or two to make sure nothing unwanted happens. Some roses have no tolerance for copper fungicides at all and will promptly drop the leaves that have been sprayed with them. (I know from personal experience.......)

If folpet is not available for sale in the USA then using it is probably illegal. Scott appears to have decided he is above the law when it comes to pesticides because this is not the first time he has indicated he acquires & uses banned pesticides.

At one time I had an extensive rose literature library including complete sets of the Canadian and American Rose Annuals. I no longer have any bound rose literature as we are now doing an extensive downsizing as our health problems will no longer permit our living on a large property, with a several level home, and a 1000 rose garden.

If memory serves me correctly both the Canadian and American Rose Annuals had articles about using antitranspirants to protect roses against blackspot. When those articles appeared, I sprayed Wilt-Pruf on some blackspot diseased leaves and reported on this forum that the spots did not enlarge. Does anyone else have any experience with antitranspirants? I could see that this method would not be practical for those with large gardens but I would think that if one only had a few roses this may be a good alternative.

I found this regarding antitranspirants and blackspot:
http://www.rose-black-spot.com/natural.htm

Wow... didn't realize this was going to bring up such a debate on the use of chemicals!! Guess I understand though although I believe that we will never understand the complexity of how manmade and even natural chemicals affect us and our environment.

Just wanted to add that I appreciate all the help on my BS problem. I think I have a plan of attack and I happen to be someone who isn't against chemicals as long as it's done safely according to label directions and following other safety protocols.

ttfn
Cheryl.

York,
Thank you for your useful comment regarding copper, as I have never tried it and now will think twice before doing so.
Your second comment regarding illegal use of folpet is uncalled for. Just so you have the facts, I purchased it and paid for it in Canada, declared it at US customs at the border; the clearly marked carton and clearly marked bottles were inspected by US employees, I paid the duty tax, was told to "have a nice day" and cleared to cross the border back to the US. Do you still think that sounds like an illegal practice or an illegal good? I don't think so, so please stick to commenting on the areas in which you have strong expertise; the law certainly isn't one of those areas. Thank you.
We are here to help each other and give each other suggestions...suggestions that we will never all agree upon, especially in the area of insect and fungus control. There are those of us who choose to control chemically and those who don't, simple as that.

Henry, your own post says that they tested right after 'intensive treatment' on maize crops. I am assuming that if you do that, there will be residue in the air, especially if you are using 100 gallons of diluted spray. But as has been pointed out, most rose growers will not use that in 10+ years. Any chemical or even organic substance can be dangerous if used to extreme or incorrectly. I have to ask why no other state besides NY has banned tebuconazole. At any rate, I read the report, I read the label and use the Bayer product as it's meant to be used for home use, just like I use any other chemical outside or inside. I don't think we need to have a debate on every thread about a disease or an insect. As scott has said, some of us will never agree.

Regarding groundwater pollution by tebuconazole: the New York report says "While labeled use of the product might be acceptable in non-sandy areas of New York State, there is no apparent way to label the product to limit impacts to vulnerable/sandy aquifers in New York State." In other words, the threat of groundwater pollution seems limited to sandy and sandy-loam soils. On those soils it would be a concern, and the regulators have used a reasonable estimate of dosage rates per area dosed.

My question would be whether home gardens where tebuconazole might be used regularly (basically, rose gardens) represent a large enough fraction of, say, Long Island to affect water quality in the Long Island aquifers. I don't know, but it seems that area would be insignificant compared to the vast areas of lawn and farmland treated with chemicals (includinng nitrogen fertilizer) that can affect water quality. However, if you keep a large rose garden on sandy soil over an aquifer, the potential for chemicals to enter groundwater ought to be considered.

Regarding folpet: folpet (Ortho Phaltan) was withdrawn from the US market because it is a known carcinogen. It is also phytotoxic to roses in hot weather. I think it is used in Canadian agriculture (apples) but not legal for homeowners in Canada. So the story about a US gardener importing it legally from Canada sounds improbable to me.

Regarding copper: copper is more acutely toxic than synthetic fungicidses, and it does accumulate in the human body. It can also accumulate in the soil to the detricment of nutrient balance. Careful occasional use should be safe, but I wouldn't recommend it for routine use.

If you need to spray but want to avoid synthetic fungicides, the main options are sulfur, antitranspirants, and oil/bicarbonate mixtures. See the FAQ of the Organic Roses Forum. I can vouch that faithful weekly treatment with sulfur combined with severe spring pruning allows the growing of most hybrid teas (not the most susceptible) in a climate with very heavy blackspot pressure.

Regarding tebuconazole/water contamination, the EPA is investigating:

"SUMMARY: The Environmental Protection Agency is publishing the third Contaminant Candidate List (CCL 3) since the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) amendments of 1996. The CCL 3 is a list of contaminants that are currently not subject to any proposed or promulgated national primary drinking water regulations, that are known or anticipated to occur in
public water systems, and which may require regulation under SDWA.
Today's final CCL 3 includes 104 chemicals or chemical groups and 12 microbiological contaminants."

http://www.fralerts.com/2009/10/8/E9-24287.asp

It is my impression that our federal government moves slowly.
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This what the EPA stated in a December 13, 2007 report:

( http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chemical/foia/cleared-reviews/reviews/128997/128997-2007-12-13a.pdf

First in the summary:
"A screening-level (Level I) risk assessment, based on proposed new uses, suggests that
levels of tebuconazole (parent compound only) in the environment are likely to result in
direct chronic risk to freshwater and estuarine/marine fish, acute risk estuarine/marine
crustaceans, chronic risk to mammals, a& risk to listed terrestrial dicot plants. Based on the potential for direct effects to these tqa, there may be potential indirect effects to species of concern that depend on these taxa as a source of food, habitat, pollination, etc.
Specific risk conclusions for each crop can be found in the assessment."

Please look at Table 1.

Concerning water contamination, the following 2 sections appear to apply:

"Ground Water Advisory )

Tebuconazole is known to leach through soil into ground water under certain conditions as a result of label use. Use of this chemical in areas where soils are permeable,
particularly where the water table is shallow, may result in ground-water contamination.

Surface Water Label Advisories

This product may contaminate water through drift of spray in wind. This product has a high potential for runoff for several months or more after application.
Poorly draining soils and soils with shallow water tables are more prone to produce runoff that contains this product. A level, well maintained vegetative buffer strip between areas to which this product is applied and surface water features such as ponds, streams, and springs will reduce the potential for contamination of water from rainfall-runoff.
Runoff of this product will be reduced by avoiding applications when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48 hours."

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As previously pointed out the European Union has acted. It is my impression that Ontario has a ban for home use; I am not sure about the other Canadian provinces. Could any Canadian readers speak about this?
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California in a July 16, 2009 report ( http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/risk/priot.pdf ) has placed tebuconazole in its "HIGH Priority" list to be studied for "TERATOLOGY".

Teratology is defined at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teratology

Additional information regarding antitranspirants and blackspot:

A video (there will be a short advertisement first):

http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn-about-Anti-Transpirants-30449984

A forum discussion:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0702582311408.ht

You know we have to worry about everything we come in contact and put in our bodies.....our food....red dye in ground beef, hormones in chicken, dyes in practically every food out there, too much sodium, no added sugar and/or no sugar added, plastic drinking bottles, make sure you wash your fruits and vegetables. Chemicals in toothpaste, in shampoos, in hand soaps, in laundry detergents, etc etc.....IT'S EXHAUSTING!!

the law certainly isn't one of those areas

When you can cite where in FIFRA you're authorized to use what no longer is labeled for use I'll be quiet. Until then, you had the good fortune to encounter a Customs inspector probably unfamiliar with the enabling legislation. It's not difficult to do when dealing with a law unfamiliar to most Customs inspectors.

I had a similar experience once while clearing an international passenger at Logan Airport once.

I work for the USDA's quarantine agency. I am familiar with at least a portion of the relevant legislation since I have to abide by it myself.

michael, I grew up on LI and it is just a spit of sand, really. But most places dont' have a very high water table. And yes, it is the land of lawns and I assume lawn chemicals. As far as tebuconazole getting into ground water from homeowners spraying roses, I would think it would be minute, unless they are pouring it into the ground.

This stuff can drive you crazy, if you let it. Have you ever gone to California? Everything in California causes cancer, based on the fact that everything there is labeled such. A few months ago, I bought a pole pruner to prune climbers and extend my reach for some larger roses. Well right there on the packaging it said 'this product contains substances known to cause cancer in the state of California'. WTH? I really don't want to know what the people of California are doing with pole pruners to get caner from them.

HAHAHAHA! oh thats a riot....thanks buford.