Elizabeth:

I too plan to use my GH as a fish room, but have to contend with sub zero temps in winter, so one of my major considerations was heat and while I would also prefer to rely on ambient air temps to heat my tanks, I don't dare in our climate. Your weather is far less extreme from season to season than our over 100 degree swings from high summer to deep winter.

Your ability to rely on air temp when cool nights hit will also depend a lot on tank size, but you presumably already know that.

You are correct to think that keeping your GH cool in summer will prove a greater challenge. It will. Given enough BTU's, you can heat a tent in the Antartic, but the heat that can build up in a GH in sunlight even in winter is amazing, and AC isn't really a practical solution, so yes, do site your's in a shadier spot.

To release excess heat, you will need automatic vent openers and intake and exhaust fans operating off of a thermostat. If you build your GH with a fairly high roof, you can also use outdoor, wet location rated ceiling fans.

Also think about an automatic misting system, to both cool the air and cut down on evaporation from the tanks. If you are using glass covers, you may want to switch to screens in the height of summer, to allow the tanks to release more heat.

I haven't yet put any fish in my GH, as we ran out of weather (and energy) to get the last of the interior work done this fall, but I did set up some plant tanks, just to see how they would do in the cold with tank heaters and the GH furnace thermostat set at only 50 deg. It's proven how well both the GH and the tanks hold the heat, and I'm getting some real good plant growth, but I still won't commit any fish to it until we have had at least a few 90 deg. days this summer.

I seem to be one of the very few GH forum members who is primarially a GH aquarist and would love to connect with another, so if you too would like someone to "talk" to about GH fishkeeping and compare notes, please feel free to email me directly.

I spent over a year researching just the right GH, then another 6 months on the foundation and the need to accomodate both water and drainage for tank maintenance, hold a fairly steady temp year round, and also prevent the invasion of pests, and would be glad to share what I learned with you.

Drea

You need to build a greenhouse with removable vinyl panels for the side walls and with an inner screen on the walls to keep out insects. The roof and ends can be permanently covered with polycarbonate panels. This strategy should be enough to eliminate overheating in the summer and should provide sufficient heat in the winter. I know: It's what I use in North Florida to grow fish in a greenhouse. Tomorrow night it will be 17 degrees F. Next summer, it will be 102 degrees in August. This design is sufficiently versatile to meet your needs. If you want more cooling, add an exhaust fan and shutters at opposite roof peaks. Even more cooling can be had with a mister system, especially effective in your climate.

Search 'tilapia' on this website and you'll find some pictures and descriptions of my greenhouses. I hope this helps.

Hi Bird,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I'd love to hear from you, and see pictures of your GH fishroom if you have them. Warning though, I'm still very much at the 'dreaming it out stage', so like with your project, it might be quite awhile before I take any action, even if I decide to do this. GardenWeb won't let me email you!

Are you using natural sunlight for your aquatic plants or lights? How do the misters work? Seems like a real possibility of some serious electrocution with the lights and filters and things, so I must be misunderstanding.

What kind (brand?) of greenhouse did you use? Did you have glass or twinwall?

Stone,

Thank you too for your reply. I'll have a look at your setup, think I saw a few pics before of yours. I'm thinking the removable vinyl would have to be custom, or is there such a kit? Do you put the panels back on at night?

Regards,
Elizabeth

Hi
Have been doing something similar for several years though I use a semi-open shadehouse since I'm in zone 10 Florida. This was originally a screen room that has had many remodelings over the years. Began in 2002 to bring all my systems into one. Last March I added a seep wall that flows into a 150 aquarium and attached the 5x10 and 2x6 lily pools into the system I use 500 watt aquarium heaters
but the low has only been 42 for 3 hours .I'm attempting to bring the large pool into "blackwater" as I want to keep Altum angels and Discus. All told there is 1500 gallons of water not including the mardh area. At present the shadehouse is 12x21 but planning to expand to 21x21,barring any major hurricanes. lol
Probably can't be of much help to anyone as our climates are so different. Have tried many different wall coverings over the years and all left a lot to be desired.
Used lattice on the roof without shade screen but did use hardware cloth mostly to keep things out but I also intend to keep my nectavore birds in it. So hoping I can get them to breed.
Supposed to drop to 39 to night so will see. I can pump
heat from the house if necessary but want the orchids to stay in the 40's for at least a few hours. So I'm not learning much
Good luck with your project.I absolutely love mine!!!
gary

Elizabeth:

I have a BC 12 X 16 Cross Country, the Anniversary Model, with the sloping roof, raised on a short kneewall to give a 10 height to the roof. No photos yet, as it's still a work in progress and for now, it's blizzarding again and other than absolute need to go outside, we are snugged in for winter.

Because of our winters, the entire GH foundation is insulated under and out 2 ft and the floor, which is currently only half done, will be 12 x 12 glazed quarry tile.

There is a channel drain across the floor center width of the GH that drains to a sump located under the sink, which will have a 5 gal. point of use water heater. The sump is connected to a long gray water line, set at 4 ft., comfortably below our frost line. Ditto the water line.

The GH is heated with a 45,000 btu dual combustion nat. gas furnace that burns only fresh air from outside, and so far, it's proven both effective and cheap to operate, even with the sub-zero weather we have had for the past few weeks.

The GH came with 4 roof vents that will be fitted with screens and to keep insects from being sucked into the GH through the intake vents, we constructed 6" deep shadow box frames, fitted them on the outside of the intakes and mounted screens to the faces. This allows the shutters to open without hitting the screens and provides a handy "box" to fill with thick foam insulating for winter.

Our biggest challenge was to devise a means to mount the ceiling fans, and was one of the reasons why we built up, to get a higher ceiling inside, to allow us to mount the fans and leave plenty of safe space under the blades.

We will mount 2" square aluminum tubing across the width of the GH 8 ft. high, connecting them to the polybars that form the "studs" then cross them down the length, creating a grid of ceiling rafters. We will then have a secure and sturdy frame to mount the ceiling fans and long strip lights.

One of the greatest advantages of using ceiling fans is their ability to suck a LOT of air up from the floor and out the roof vents and mine will be mounted under just off center from the roof vents, at opposite ends of the GH, so they can be set to pull up in summer, and to run each in opposite directions in winter, to circulate warm air throughout the GH.

I too am very sensitive to the need for care regarding electricity around water and the GH has it's own weatherproof, grounded circuit box. I also have a absolute loathing of extension cords, so will have outlets set every 2 ft in a line along the walls at about 48" with all wires in PVC.

I'm also planning an air line along at least one length, connected to one of my big blowers, but haven't yet decided if I'll use rigid pipe, or stick with the clear 3/8th vinyl tubing, which is cheap and pretty easy to cut and change, but needs more support.

Don't laugh, but those blowers may have been the real driving force of my decision to get the tanks out of my basement. Being able to connect as many tanks as I want, with all the force I need with enough left over to require bleeding off the excess is wonderful. A 50 CFM air pump can blow out a dozen 100 gal. tanks and then some, but oh, the racket!

Misters are simply very small water nozzles, set in narrow tubes, that can be set on timers, or manually operated. I first experienced their ability to cool air while sitting under an awning on a patio in AZ in August and was amazed at how well the misters mounted under the awnings kept the temps so much less than just a few feet away, where we could have fried eggs on the hoods of cars.

You asked about tank lights. I honestly don't know yet, but expect to need them if I'm going to use the GH as a fish room year round. I do know I will use only strip lights mounted above the tanks. No hoods; just glass or screen covers.

The few tanks currently in the GH have lights on them, set on timers. I also only have a small air pump plugged in, to run vey low pressure airstones; just enough to keep the water from becomming stagnant. One tank is filling itself with Java Moss and the only "live" things in them now are blood red ramshorn snails; my prime algae defense and snacks for my Clown Loaches, that love them.

But I haven't the heart to dump even some cull Gups out there just yet, let alone any of my Clowns, 3 of which are now at 14" and I am pretty sure; a trio. That's my real ambition; to get Clowns to spawn.

I'll get back here with an e-address for you ASAP.

Birdwidow, Stoneunhenged, between the two of you, I ought to be able to figure out most of what I am wanting to do. I have thought about raising Tilapia or other edible fish in a GH environment. My thought is the integrated growing philosophy. Have the fish in "tanks" (55 gal plastic barrels) which will give me passive solar gain, as well as a heat sink, and then use the "fishy" water for watering plants in the environment. I understand that this system is viable for people in my zone (I think I am at the borderline between 5 and 4; Kansas City area.) Of course in my zone I will have to supplement heat in the winter and figure out some means of cooling in the summer. (Any thoughts on using in tank fountains for adding air and cooling the water?) I know I will have tons of questions, so I hope I don't become a pest.

Moke:

I'm still very much a neophyte on GH's, but can honestly claim some level of expertise on keeping fish, so, with the sincere hope that you won't be insulted by my response..... I've never considered keeping any fish for the table in an indoor tank, but to sustain a supply of them would indicate breeding and I honestly don't know how you would get even a single pair of any food sized fish to spawn in any tank less than 500 gallons. Unless you plan to buy fry, and rear them for the table?

If so, then yes, no reason why you couldn't rear for the table in a GH or for that matter, a large tank in the garden, at least in the warm months, but NOT in 55 gallon barrels.

In considering the size of a tank for live fish, surface area is as important as total liquid volume, so a 20 gallon long tank, at 13 W X 13 H X 30 L, would support as many fish as a tall, 55 gal. barrel.

The so-called "rule" about X gal. per inch of fish is pure hokum: it's bulk, and a single fat, round food fish about 8" long lips to end of tail, will bulk more than, and require a tank as large, as would 100, 2" Neon Tetras.

As for fountains to cool the water: there too, I haven't considered it for myself, but from what I have read here, would think that that misting the air would be more effective, and the tanks will maintain pretty much the same temp as the air. However, the smaller the tank, the faster the temp will flux and quick changes in water temp is also the quickest way to kill the fish.

There is a great discussion going on now on another thread, about heat sinks. Read the posts and decide if you will have the space necessary to use any tanks of water as a heat source, and keep in mind that if those tanks house live tropical fish, and Tilapia are Tropicals- you will not be able to allow the tanks to lose heat, so would need tank heaters and a reliable source of heat for the GH.

The real issue for keeping fish in any GH, is the sheer amount of floor space necessary to hold the tanks, because any fish intended for the table needs to be large enough to provide meat, and a single Tilapia large enough to produce just 2 fillets, would need at least 30 well filtered gals.

I don't mean to come across as totally negative about your desire to rear food fish in your GH, but there are realities involved, mainly cost-benefit ratios.

We got rid of our brooder because it simply made no financial sense for us to rear day old chicks just to keep a few dozen dual purpose hens. Between the cost of the Starter, electricity to heat the brooder, Grower, grit, etc, it proved far cheaper (and a lot less time and effort) to just buy well started pullets. It's really makes no financial sense for us to keep the few chickens we do, other than to cater to my taste for real, all flavor, free range meat, and truly fresh eggs for breakfast.

And, why most people grow tomatoes ripe to eat just about when they get cheap at the stores. We want the flavor.

You are right on target about the "fishy" water however, as long as you allow the mulm to settle and use only the clear top water, otherwise the mulm will quickly coat and seal the surface of the soil in a pot and concurrently, stink it it up. Straight from the tank is great for large plants in the garden though, where you can rake and cultivate the ground around the plants, then water well.

HOWEVER... a couple of 1000 gal stock tanks in a GH just large enough to give you some walking space around the tanks and to hold the filters and pumps, with soil heating coils under the tanks and stock tank heaters in them, just might do the job for you.

I priced a 1000 heavy plastic stock tank just today at our local farm supply store: $299.00. (Blaine's Farm & Fleet)

Birdwidow, thanks for the info. We used to keep a few tropicals when I was a kid. (Angel fish, swordtails, the usual WoolWorth's variety of fish. My older sister was the manager of one of thier local store's pet/toy/school supply departments.) The reason I was thinking about Tilapia was that they do not reproduce in waters with an average temp of less than 60 degrees, which means that they wouldn't survive to reproduce if accidentally released into the native environment. (A problem we are experiencing from other species.) As to the tank info, A BIG THANK YOU!! I was thinking of the 55 gal food grade barrels, so available on the market, due to price than anything else. The 1000 gal tanks you found are just about as cheap, when you compute the number of barrels needed to get the same volume of water, the only down side is S&H on something that large. If I put them in the center of the structure I should have enough space to put planting racks around the outside walls. The problem I was concerned about with large tanks is one side being shaded half the day while the other one is getting full sun. I had looked into the large vat type tanks that stand several feet tall, and not the lower stock tanks. And you were right about buying fry. I have a number of hatcheries available here, and depending on the species, I can get just about anything that the DOC allows.

Moke:

You are right about shipping something that bulky, but if you are near a number of hatcheries, are you also within a reasonable driving distance of a farm community? If so, stock tanks, small to huge will be available at most any good sized farm supply store in that area.

They come fitted with drains, and you can make your own sump filters. All it really takes is a series of rectangular plastic tubs, a hole cutter, bulkheads and some sumbersible pumps, all of which are fairly cheap.

I haven't a pond, yet- I'd like to have one- but do keep many tropical breeder tanks, so buy my filter media from pond suppliers and cut it to fit. Ditto charcoal. Buy it in bulk, and it's pretty cheap.

Also; if you plan to purchase fry, are you planning an all in- all out operation? If so, then you can start the fry in the big tank. Otherwise, you would need another one to start them in.

If you are well handy with tools, you could also build your own. Buy 3/4" marine ply, some angle iron for bracing, then seal it all with a good epoxy enamel and line it with pond liner.

Matter of fact, a long shallow raceway is about the best configuration of all. Drain out from one end and pump the filtered water back into the other through a spray bar, and you would have a nice little current and aireation, all at the same time. Get real ambitious. Add an automatic water change system, and your could spend more time eating them, than cleaning up after them.

Check out the size per gal. of aquaruims, and think about how cheaply you could construct what would cost a fortune in glass or acrylic.

2'D X 3'H X 12'L is one brodacious tank; in the + $6,000.00 range easy. Build it yourself, and it won't cost more than a few hundred. But it would support a whole bunch of Talipa fry. In fact, you could build several and raise the fish in them.

LOTS of possibilities.

I live in a farming community, so access to farm supplies is not a problem, and I am about 60 miles from Kansas City so there several suppliers/distributors of just about anything I need. Most of the hatcheries here raise their stock in ponds with raceways. Some still use ponds without raceways, but most of them are doing all in/all out operations, which was what I had planned on. (I assume you mean I buy and raise one or two broods of fish at a time and process them all at the same time. Uniform sizes that way, hopefully.) I have seen some of the hatcheries use the raceway tank made of poured concrete but the big problem is some fish end up skinned up from living in that sort of environment, something I want to avoid. I have a source of good, pure water here so I shouldn't have a problem with having healthy fish. (I have a deep well, that tests out very soft, no impurities. I know I will have to test my water after it is put into the tank and adjusted according to the tests, but no chlorine problem.) I like the idea of building a tank using 3/4 plywood, angle iron bracing, caulk, epoxy paint and a pond liner. The cost should be reasonable for my purposes, and construction is no problem for me. Thanks for your expertise and thoughts.

Moke: Yes, we mean the same thing on the all in- all out. It's how poultry farms handle it too, not just for even size though. It allows total sterilizion of the facilities between each brood.

It would work as well for fish, except that you really don't want to put them into uncycled water, so always hold at least 10 - 20% of old, filtered water from a healthy tank, to jump start the bio cycle in new one.

I'm glad you like the idea, because I just thought of another good reason to build your own, and also remembered another product that would be far better than pond liner.

You could use dense rigid foam to insulate the exterior of the tanks. Or, wrap them with the reflective, cell filled insulating used on water heaters.

And... forget the pond liner. Check out the wall panel section at Home Deport or any other big home center for the white plastic liners sold for clean rooms. It's sold in 4 X 8 ft. sheets, in several thicknesses. Cut it to fit the interior of the tanks, glue it in, and seal the seams with 100% silicone caulk. The stuff sold at the home center is identical as the silly little tubes found in pet shops.

The interior of your tanks will be white, and far more light reflecting for the fish as well as your own ability to see what they are up to, smooth as glass, so no abrasion and unlike pond liner, will have no creases to trap muck. You could trim the top edges with white vinyl cap, and use vinyl brick mold for cross braces, and it will not only be waterproof, it will be bright, and easy to clean.

You really do want to see see the muck, or algae in the tanks, to be able to get at it before it literally takes over.

Lastly: If you brace the bottom of the tank well enough, you can set it up on legs or stacked concrete blocks, set the sump under it, and let gravity do your draining. Just a few inches of slope to the drain end will keep the mulm flowing out. Then you only need a pump to put it back in. But you need a stop check on this type of filter, in case you lose power, to prevent the tank from emptying when the pump is off.

Have a ball, and post some photos when you are done. I'd love to see what you come up with.

Birdwidow, I love the idea of using the 4x8 poly board. I can get it at one of two farm stores in this area. They sell it in two different thicknesses that I know of. The primary use is for Dairy and Meat Processing operations. The only problem I can forsee is the weight of the water. I have helped pour concrete before into wooden forms, and the weight of the concrete often causes the forms to bow or blow out. I am afraid that a 3/4 inch thick piece of plywood, even with angle iron bracing will have these problems, so I am planning on building it with 2x4 or 2x6 framing like we use on commercial concrete forms, then fill the voids with rigid foam insulation. (3 and 1/2 inches of solid foam insulation will give about an R 17.5, a lot better than most fiberglass bats.) I will cross brace underneath and across the tops of the "tank" to add extra lateral support. As to sloping the bottom, that is also a great idea. I was thinking of using a swimming pool vaccum attachment on my shop vac, but the idea of a filter catching the muck as part of the pumping/aeration system is much more effecient, and less work intensive. Thanks for the great ideas.