I don't understand why that's so odd. I experienced the worst ice storm in this area in 2000. I was outside with the hose spraying my smallish oak tree that was hanging to the breaking point. I melted the ice and saved the tree without a broken limb. I also saved my crepe myrtle that way. Every single tree in this area had severe damage except the 2 that I sprayed down with water. I deiced my sidewalk in a matter of minutes. The water just runs off. Now if the water stands there and refreezes that's a waste of time. My areas were slanted and the 55 degree water de-ices quite well.

I entered a convenience store and watched with amazement as the manager hosed down the walk to melt the ice. He gave me a blank look when I suggested it would freeze again and make a bad situation worse.We live on the wet coast where freezing temperatures make the 6 o'clock news. He had recently arrived from Asia and was not familiar with Ice Melt.

anyone know of a device to use via a garden hose that uses salt to melt ice? standing in 1 place for 20 minutes is a huge waste of well water, this is why i can't understand this behavior.

my question is not will water melt ice, i thought i covered that.

tom

Your homework: Go visit with your neighbor. Then report back what you learned.

tomplum,

did you read my initial post? IDIOT neighbor, we'd both prefer to talk with charles manson than each other! don't you think i'd have asked him if we were on speaking terms?

tom

Well, I don't worry about what my neighbor's do as along as it don't affect or effect my side of the street or fence. He's paying the water bill so why worry about it. Be a good neighbor and mind your own business as as you say he's paying for it so let him along.

how is this a huge waste of well water? it is going right back into teh ground from whence it came.

i bet you think all those citrus farmers in FL are idiots too for putting sprinklers on teh citrus groves when temps get below freezing. the warm(relatively) water from teh sprayers is warmer than the ice and melts its. then the majority of that water drips off and very little freezes back. the farmers don't turn teh sprinlers off, so the water never refreezes.

is it POSSIBLE someone could address the question?

is there a home unit that hooks up to a garden hose that deices a driveway?

tom

If there is, I don't believe any homeowners on this forum has it. Just a wild guess. Haven't ever heard of anything like that for the homeowner/consumer, but in the commercial or agri world...maybe.

Hot water does not always freeze faster than cold water.

Hot water does not always freeze faster than cold water.

Hot water has more energy in it. Cold always freezes first all things being equal.

-br

It is correct that sometimes hot water freezes faster than cold water but only under certain conditions. This apparent quirk of nature is the "Mpemba effect," named after the Tanzanian high school student, Erasto Mpemba, who first observed it in 1963. Click on the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mpemba Effect

"Hot water does not always freeze faster than cold water.

Hot water has more energy in it. Cold always freezes first all things being equal. "

Go to a hockey game and watch the Zamboni resurface the ice.

First the mpemba effect.
Cool article.
Notice first that it doesn't always work.
Note also that physicists in the 1980s were unable to conclusively demonstrate this relationship.
Further notice that With the cooler water at the bottom, this uneven temperature distribution creates convection currents that accelerate the cooling process
In other words while the mpemba effect may be fascinating it doesn't earn the title "reliable" or even "repeatable."

Did I not say "All things being equal?"

Now to the zamboni:
I'll resist the temptation to be a smart __ here, oh it hurts though.

I've never seen a pair of Zambonis resurface ice; one being marked hot water the other cold water. (So they could be timed.)

If I were to design a machine to spray water on ice though I would add a heating element to keep my machine from freezing up before I finished. Wouldn't you?
The zamboni has no bearing on the "mpemba effect"
But it was a funny suggestion.
-br

You did indeed say "all things being equal", but I think that is what the Mpemba effect is about. With all things being equal warmer water will sometimes freeze faster than colder water. The cooling mechanisms are an attempt to measure what is affecting the rate of freezing. Convection is a physical process that the colder water will also experience, just as it will experience evaporation.

In the end, based on current experimentation with all things being equal, warmer/hot water does not always freeze faster than cold/colder water and vice versa. I disagree about your repeatable and reliable statement, the affect is repeatable and reliable otherwise it would not be an effect recognized in Physics. Because they do not know what causes the effect, makes it neither unrepeatable nor unreliable.

You can argue all you want to boltonranger, but your statement of "Cold always freezes first all things being equal" falls to the Mpemba effect.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mpemba Science Experiment

If there's less water to freeze due to evaporation,
and If we are not "freezing" the same volume of water,
Then all things are not equal.(In my usage.)

I realized no one asked anything about hot water as I re-read the thread. The only person to bring up hot water happens to be the guy who wants to talk about the effect, and hijack the thread.

Sorry to the original poster, no I don't know of such a device.
-br

There was a post in there that apparently was taken out. Someone before me said something like "hot water always freezes faster than cold water", which led to my short missive that their over generalization was not always true.

So what is not equal about same volume of water in identical containers but different temperatures? If you read the articles on the effect you would find that experiments have been done to take away the losses due to evaporation and there are still cases where the effect is found. Viz., evaporation is at least not the only mechanism that contributes to this effect. I think you'll find that this discussion really does not matter to me. What matters is that the facts are stated fairly correctly.

This discussion is much more interesting than about some guy that can't stand his neighbors that apparently has done nothing to him but can't stop watching them. Hopefully OP can infer from my posts that I know of nothing that would help him figure out if his neighbor is smarter than him.

This whole thread was much more interesting until some moderator deleted 4 posts but allowed the original poster to call his neighbor an idiot.

funny how it was interesting when you (plural) criticized me but when i criticized my neighbor that was not acceptable.

why don't you give it a break rdaystrom, frankly i don't care what you think. and masiman i don't really care for your snide remarks either.

the thread is done, let it die. sorry i asked really, this used to be a good forum.

tom

There is a product that sort of answers the original question. Saw it on Ebay. See the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bare ground deicer.

thank you rdaystrom.

tom

and i answered your question as well. the water is above freezingand therefore melts the ice it is sprayed on. since your neighbor does this with success, i hardly think it is idiotic.

this forum is a good forum still in certain places. but when someone starts out calling names and arguing with all the posters who answer or attempt to answer them, threads ALWAYS go down hill from there.

Your comments rubbed me the wrong way and you had my comments removed.I did not recieve any reason for it.It is just gone.I just do not like when someone is judged by where they live.Just because someone lives in the right part of town does not make them smarter or have more money.Just like living in a trailer does not make someone trailer trash or a idiot.I live in a nice home on several acres in the country.But before I had this house built I lived in a 14x76 trailer for 5 years.Some of my best friends and relatives live in house trailers.I can not think of one who is not successful.They all get up and go to work everyday or are retired.A few of them never finished Highschool.One of them is my Uncle who lives in a trailer with my Aunt and never finished school.Because he worked to support his family after his dad died.Back in the 30's things were different then today.But he did very well and could buy a Mansion if he really wanted it.

THREAD CLOSED I DO NOT CARE FOR ANYMORE REPLIES UNDERSTAND?

TOM

How can you close a thread?

closed as in i don't need or want anymore replies. this is just a lot of crap. drop it. enough. keep harassing me and i will report the thread. understand? no reply required.

tom

Tjg, I only tried to summarize what you wrote. I am sorry if you do not like it but it was meant to be an accurate rendition of your statements. Frankly, your's is the same type of complaint that boltonranger had. If my statements are incorrect then please correct them.

I do not think the whole neighbor relationship part was at all germain to the question. I'm not saying that your thoughts toward them are wrong. But I do wonder how much time and effort you expend toward this non-relationship and to what end. Not a question for me to answer but one for you to consider. I think the less kind remarks in this thread unwittingly go to this same point.

This certainly is one of the weaker forums I have seen. Lack of edit capability and attachments. Seemingly arbitratry moderation. I really this forum could have much greater participation if these problems were addressed.

Let it go gentlemen.
It's Tom's thread; he thanked folks for their answers, and got what he needed.
Let's all be adults here and move on.
-br

hard to be adults when the OP is being so childish.

report the thread. that is the only way it can ever be closed. don't believe me, bring up any thread you want that is years old, you can still post in it.

no one is harassing you, you are being childish and reporting each person you don't AGREE WITH.