hhmmm....if you send me a snail mail address by E Mail to sctierra at sonic.net (please reformat address to email standards), I'll send you the books and printed materials I no longer use.

Steve

I must ask one question.

What do you want to do with your Greenhouse.

The way I think is I have a goal and then I work out how I am going to get to do what I want.

You have to tell us what you need a greenhouse for and we will work back from there.

To give you two examples.

1...... " Hi there!!! I live on a 5 acre homestead and I would like to start my own plants because buying bedding plants and veggie plants to fill my garden is expensive. I just need a place to start seeds and grow them on for 6-8 weeks in the spring. Also I would like to extend my growing season in the fall, have a few tomatoes in November when the outdoor tomatoes are dead because the frost killed them in the first week of October... Can you help me build a cost effective and energy efficient structure?"

or....

2...... "Hi there!! I live in an area that has a mid winter average low of -4F and a mid summer average high of 90+F. I want to grow rare amazonian orchids that need a temperature of between 65F and 75F all year round, also my plants need full shade at all times.... Can you help me build a cost effective and energy efficient structure?"

In zone 4b both are possible. The structures would be TOTALLY different.

Without going into great detail for example 1 it would be an above ground structure Lots of thermal mass in there (water), Back up heating (set at 33F), small exhaust fan, and an airlock type door to get inside it. Yep, a door you go through, close then open another door to get in the greenhouse proper.

Example 2 in zone 4b. A big hole in the ground and use artificial lights. A cave would be ideal!

What you build depends on what you want to grow.

Chris, I had to go back two pages and almost 20 new threads by plant.babies to find it: "...will be growing mostly tropicals/ houseplants and patio plants that don't take direct sun."

"I don't really have any other resources besides this forum for my learning curve."

With all due respect, plant.babies, this is nonsense.

This is probably the best forum on the web for technical GH information, that is true. But there are plenty of other resources for you...books, libraries, internet, other.

You would get a lot more out of your queries by doing a couple of things. First, as Chris said, decide how you will use the GH; remind us of this when you post a new question. Second, research it thoroughly using Google, the search function here at GW, and other sources. I can think of a few instances off the top of my head when your question could easily have been answered in this way, with one GW or Google search. Third, when you post your question, review the findings of your research (that helps the rest of us, even if we don't know the answer) and then be as specific as possible with your question.

I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh. But I'm afraid with all of your new threads on such a wide range of topics, that eventually forum readers will just turn off and you won't get answers to any of your questions.

SB

stressbaby,

Ooops!! I guess I should have searched a bit more and I would have found my answer. :)

plant.babies,

Have you actually bought anything yet or are you in the planning stage?

My first thought is you would be making yourself a lot of work by using a traditional greenhouse. Too expensive to heat/cool and shade.

If I was thinking about raising house plants and patio containers I would build something that looks like a pergola with a shed attached or a gazebo with an arbor extending on the east and west sides.

Or imagine a long thin shed say 6-8ft wide and 20-30ft long with glazing only on the south wall and maybe a few skylights in the south sloping roof. Paint the inside all white.

I don't know what you have available to spend but it may be more cost effective to erect a custom designed structure.

My greenhouse looks like a "greenhouse" but it has a solid north wall and north roof. At the moment it is totally useless. Too hot in there without spending a lot of money on cooling, and to be honest at this time of year everything is doing better outside.

Apart from funding how much space do you have?

You dont have to spend alot of money to cool it. I have been running a greenhouse for years, over 15 and depending on what you grow will depend on what you SPEND. Repeat....this is all about plants, remember, plants are what we are growing. If you dont understand your plants, a greenhouse is worthless. I cool my greenhouse with water. It stays about 85° F on hot summer days. Yes, it cost $800 to get started but if you are serious about success, then $800 is not a problem. If you want to grow a few flowers, then there are easier ways to do it.

People that grow general plants and flowers, dont need a greenhouse in the summer. People that grow orchids or tree ferns or maybe bog plants might need a greenhouse with controlled conditions.

If you are going to do this smart, you need to know your plant. Now, on the other hand, more people need a greenhouse in the winter than summer. Why, well, if you can grow your tropicals outside in the summer, you might need a place for them in the winter so you dont freeze them. This is great and saves you a little money.

Remember know your plant and what it will do, this is the key to growing any type of plant.

I give you a example of what I do. I use my greenhouse in the summer to grow tree ferns and orchids, most of my orchids can go outside under trees and shaded areas. My cymbidiums can go out in the sun or bright area. The palm trees go on the patio, everything else stays in the greenhouse. Why, because the tree ferns grow better at 85° F so outside in the 90°F would not do. All in all each plant has a place and I dont have to run a bill up trying to care for stuff, in the winter, I fill up the greenhouse and slam the door. Everyone is happy. :-)

orchiddude,

I am sorry to disagree but it does cost a lot to cool a structure in summer that is built like a traditional greenhouse.

The best anyone can hope for is the temp to be the same as the outside air. Big exhaust fans.

Your greenhouse isn't a big poly covered see-through box sitting in the yard is it?

chris_in_iowa: The best anyone can hope for is the temp to be the same as the outside air.

Not true. You might, with a bit of thought, come up with a way to keep the temperature about the same as the nightly minimum dew point.

Chris....you missed my whole point....its not the cost that I wanted to think about, it was the plant. MOST don't need a greenhouse in the summer if they are going to grow flowers for the summer or make a few cuttings. Why, because they can go them outside with no problem. Plants of this type don't need a greenhouse and it would be stupid to lock them up in one. On the other hand, if you grow a plant that needs a controlled environment then you need some type of greenhouse.

You are correct that it can cost a fortune for everyday plants because everyday plants are not suppose to be there. Just think of all the water and air movement that would have to go on. Lots of work, kick'em in the yard and your free.

But on the other hand, I only have 2 hands, plants that are made for these conditions can be grown in a greenhouse in the summer with the proper tools. Its all about the toys we have. LOL :-)

I am going to build another greenhouse in a few years. Its going to be really cool. Did I say cool? I mean cool with toys and stuff. Anyway, something to look forward too. :-)

Its amazing what atomize water will do.

From what she has told me in emails, "d' wants to grow fresh market herbs and to meet her customer's needs for a steady and relaible supply, will need to operate her GH 365.

Due to zoning restrictions, she is limited in the size of GH she can erect on her property, so a 12 x 16 about as large as she can get in a standard sized kit.

She is also seeking a grant for her project, and as such, will need to have literally every penny accounted for in her application, because 99% of the work in grantwriting is the research.

Modifying a grant after-the-fact is a good way to lose the funding, so while I agree that "d" may need to do some more deep thinking about what she needs to grow the plants, I understand her frustration.

I've spent many years wanting a GH and yet when it came time to actually place the order and spend my budget wisely, I got different answers from every vendor and would never have received the same genuine, qualified information from them, as I have on this Forum.

Rather like my GH heater: I got the answer I needed because Cris and Nathan gave me the right questions, which led me to seek a definative answer from a H/AC pro. who also had no financial interest in my decision.

But even then, my budget was self imposed and I can expand it at need, pretty much as I please, while "d' is under severe restrictions. If she goes over budget, she could end up SOL.

Nevertheless: "d" I still think you are missing two valuable resources: your own U of O Ag. Extension Service and local Soil & Water Conservation District.

So near to the heart of Oregon ag. country, they may well be a lot closer and more accessable to you than you realize.

Welcome back Orchiddude. You can offer some real good advice because you have real experience, I for one have missed you.
I know you use the Aquafogger and I really need one. My misters only keep my greenhouse at or 1 or 2 degrees below. I probally need to run them more ofter and need a few more misters. But due to back surgery I only go to my greenhouse once a month. My DH does the best he can but just doesn't like to deal with the timers and such.
Could you give me your cost estimate for running the Aquafogger and fans. All things electric.
My electric bill is around $105-120. a month year round.
All I have are exhaust fans, HAF fans, one ceiling fan and vents.
I need a cost comparison to see if I can justify getting an Aquafogger.
I know our greenhouse sizes are different but maybe I could multiply the difference.
Gotta go for now. Thanks

Hey Cactusfreak, thanks for the welcome back.

I just checked the temp outside at 91°F and the greenhouse inside at 80°F. Looking good so far.

Now, with the lady that wants to grow stuff year around. There are 2 ways to keep it cooler, 1 is to have a HIGH ceiling, this gets the heat off the floor and up and out of your hair. This is good during the summer, but bad in winter. You kinda need an ajustable roof thingy to make it work better. The other way is to use water.

With the fogger that I use, it blows air @ about 2700cfm (I think, dont hold me to it). You can get different sizes to do different things. The trick that makes it work great is the distance from the fogger to the place you need cool air. My greenhouse is 18x25 (I think), been a long time since I measured it. I get nice air flow and a cool breeze . Its really cool when it rains and the fog rolls out the door. I will get a picture of that next time we have a good rain.

As far as price, I spend about $25 on water each month in the summer. I dont run this all year, dont have too, just about 4 or 5 months a year. In winter I send about $100 to heat the GH, $90 most months, 4 months out of the year. Cost wise, I think its cheap for what I do.

Hey, everybody.

Cactus, how can you survive by going only once a month to the GH?!?

Orchiddude, that's quite a differential. Right now, I've got 96.4F in the GH and 95.2 outside. It sounds like I need the misters on more frequently, too, huh?

Still skeptical about the fogger in my situation given my hard water.

SB

Orchiddude-Great to see your postings.Lots of us have missed your expert advice.Your advice on how to set up my heat system works perfectly...at the time of year I need it(cold weather).It is amazing how little propane it uses.When the weather knocked out our electricity last winter-my vent free heater kept on ticking!Orchiddude,again,thanks for advice on that vent free heater.This forum is indeed the best place around to get technical advice from folks who have greenhouses,and know their stuff.It's about time to have the Tank Refilled.Been thinking of getting a misting system for those late spring/early fall days when My plants are in greenhouse.I don't even try to keep plants in there this time of year.The type of plants I grow do much bettor out in the sun!

Stressbaby...I am not sure what my TDS are in my water, we have alot of limestone in ours. I guess I have had my fogger for 8 years maybe longer and I run the hard water through it. They recommend cleaning it every 3 years, I think. I have never cleaned it. It needs cleaning. You are not going to have a problem with the hard water, it slings the water out so fast and it so small of drops it doesnt have time to touch anything. LOL. You can stand in front of the fogger and NOT get wet. Thats how little the drops are. Plus you have a flow gauge that allows you to adjust the amount you want to put out. Oh and they make a smaller model now days for the smaller greenhouse. I had forgot about that in the earlier posts.

Trigger.... I am so glad your heater worked. I tell you what, these vent free heaters have saved me a ton of money and when all else fails, its still burning. I am so glad I could help.

Now there is one other idea that I found while I was in DC a year ago. I went to the greenhouse their by the Capital and they several different cooling systems but the one I found interesting was the one that came on with a timer and it looked like smoke coming up from the plants. It turns out that they use a fogger that puts out a fine smoke like mist that uses water and pressure. Its so fine you can not feel it with your hand but you can see it. Its so cool. I emailed the greenhouse later and got the name of the produce and they sent me some materials on it. I misplaced the paper work but can give more details later when I find it. I am thinking of using this as a small cooler later on.

hmmmm.... well, it's really not nonsense that right now you guys are the only place where I can find a lot of regular, average people (ok, you guys are above average) who have built gh's from scratch!

I did find my AG agent, but he is out of town. I do plan to meet w/ him to go over plans for the gh, and get help to hook everything up once it arrives, but I need info NOW so that I can get my Plan submitted and get the gh put up before Fall comes around.

I have chosen the Cross Country 12x16 "Traditional" Triplewall. We have high sustained winds here, and I think it will be strong enough.

I plan to use an 8 ft. (Nathan's design) fish-pond along the back (N) wall. The N wall will be half solid, well-insulated. My hope is to use the pond water to spray into a vertically-hanging hydroponic setup.

Black-painted drums along the S and W walls, and insulation around the foundation. We are lucky to have a re-build-it center where we can get thick insulation panels for cheap.

I plan to sink the floor 2-3 feet so that the apex of the gh is at 12' feet or so. We are one of the sunniest-winter places in the country, so it's probable that I will actually have to cool the gh at times in winter. I have very low income, so need to run all the systems as inexpensively as possible.

I had already decided on the AquaFog XE400 -- glad to know it works so well. I am going to use hanging HAF fans that are up out of my way.

I will have a pool cover in winter, and Aluminet in summer if needed. My plants won't survive our desert temps "out in the yard" and I really need to use the gh 365 as someone said.

I'm planning to recycle rain-water, and the water that flows through the potting sink.

I am disabled, so will need as much automation as possible, and a few extra safety features.

:)
d

Plant.babies, it seems to me that you have a sound, reasonable design.

You may want the north side of your drums painted white.

I'd still like to know for sure what you will be growing. ;-)

I would dump the barrels and save the room. I think its more cost effective. You can probably make more money with the room, than save on heat. We had a long talk about this years ago. Anyway, what would you like to know? You ask the questions and we can give you ideas and real world knowledge.

Talk to us, and maybe we can help ya... :-)

Yep,I agree with orchiddude,It does not take long to run out of space in a greenhouse.I had planned on installing a sink and cabinet in the greenhouse but I've since decided it will be bettor installed outside!!My greenhouse is 14'x 20',and I'm already considering doubling it.I'm also moving my benches around to maximize space-and deciding what I'm gonna leave out of it this year!!My relatives plants are gonna have to go elsewhere this winter!A small 27k btu ventfree heater takes much less space than hundreds of gallons of water.

Um.....

I have four 8ft by 4ft benches in my greenhouse and there are also 20 or so 30 gallon trash cans in there too.

About 600 gallons and they do not take up one square inch of plant growing space. Where I put them is a secret....

orchiddude, You said, "Chris....you missed my whole point....its not the cost that I wanted to think about, it was the plant." I think we are on the same page here. It is the PLANT! If your plant needs full sun in the middle of summer and your greenhouse is a glass box designed to let the maximum amount of light in then your cooling requirements will be huge.

If the plants need partial shade then your cooling costs reduce dramatically.

I am set up for maximum solar gain at a low sun angle. 2 months in spring, 2 more in fall.

As to any other input I have, (after having waited 15 minutes for my computer to unfreeze due to iv.doubleclick.net to do what it was trying to do) I am having difficulty posting here.

Gardenweb is a good site to read. The ads are killing me off.

I think everyone is arguing at cross porpoises. Plant.babies hasn't made her aims entirely clear, but my general impression is that she wants to make something that is relatively self-contained in its demands. She, like me, wants a greenhouse that is cheap to make and cheap to operate and is in it for the hobby, not for the money.

chris has some excellent experience dealing with cold climates being in zone 4. orchiddude has excellent experience dealing with warm conditions and growing tropical plants. (I don't think tropical plants are on the menu though.)

I don't know whether the barrels are a good idea or not, having a thousand gallons in a tank full of fish will certainly reduce the freeze potential of the greenhouse, and having good sealing and insulation will reduce the unwanted heat transfer, whether in or out.

A cheap way to cool is using mister nozzles directly off the mains/town water (producing say 100um drops). They will use a lot more water than fogger based systems (with say 10um drops) due to the lower surface area for evaporation. They won't be affected by any but the hardest water. However, if you can use the misters and have most of the water land in your fish pond, and then water your plants using that water you may find that the misters are one of the most cost effective coolants available (costing a few tens of dollars to install and a few dollars per year in water to operate).

As always, it comes down to whole system planning and knowing exactly what you want to achieve with the greenhouse:

I want a sheltered warm room to sit in and read books, to start plants, cost little to operate and provide many happy hours. I have little money to spare, and like to live frugally. I value passive negative feedback systems that mean I am not reliant on power, fuel or water. I want my greenhouse to produce wealth by capturing rain and sunlight and producing food, fun and house warm.

Bihai wants to make a vista, filling the vision with a lush tropical escape. Having a beautiful design and lots of space to work is the most important goal

Orchiddude wants to propagate and flower many rare and interesting tropical species. The greenhouse must not move outside rather tight bounds, operating costs are not an issue (spending more per year operating than I've spent in construction)

Chris wants to grow veggies such as toms in an unforgiving climate. Performance and operating cost are key. Looks are a minor concern.

Birdwidow wants a space to enjoy her autumn years, and cultivate aquatic species. Budget is fine, time and effort are not.

We each have different aims and different incomes and it is important to recognise that different goal functions lead to different optimal solutions.

p.s. Chris: install firefox and use one of the many available blockers. I only see static ads, which is fine by me.

Well put, Nathan. We all have different aims. One of my aims was to construct a greenhouse that was architecturally compatible with the rest of my home and landscape. It's more expensive than Chris's, costs more to operate than yours, is not as big as Bihai, and has a less controlled climate than Orchiddude's...but it serves my purposes very well. If I want to spend more in operational costs than someone else, and I know the alternatives, that's OK, it's my choice.

It still comes back to decision number one: what do you want out of the greenhouse. Plant.babies has gotten a lot of sound advice and it sounds like she has a clear plan for her GH and her grant. But I am still not clear what plant.babies will be growing. Tropicals and houseplants? Fresh marker herbs? Aquatics? A little of everything?

SB

Nathan hit it right on the button.

Each of us has their own reason for having a GH and each intended purpose requires a specific type of set-up to achieve it.

I have been focused on the best means to operate my GH 365, and because I live in the midwest, must address a reliable means of keeping it warm in winter at a steady, relaible temp., because while I will be cultivating aquatic plants, I will also be keeping tropical fish in it.

I never thought about the heat retaining qualities of the water until Nathan brought it to my attention, but I will indeed have at least 1,000 gallons of water in my GH, kept at 78-80 deg.

Nathan's observations regarding the water so impressed both me and my husband, we checked out watering troughs, to see if we could find one to fit under a work table I plan for the center of my GH.

We did, and for $139.99, we can add another 300 gallons, in a tank that comes with a built-in drain, is designed to survive cows climbing over and/or into it, yet is light enough empty to toss into the back of a PU truck.

The point being, that as I've been searching for solutions, I've found dozens of products on the market that were unavailable just 10 years ago, or sold for totally unrelated uses and thereby not advertised in GH equipment catalogs.

Many of them can be adapted to GH use, and from some of the posts on another thread here, I wonder if some GH folk may be stuck with notions of what will or will not work, only because they have become accustomed to older or "standard" GH materials and/or methods.

Want a warm place to stand in your GH for a long time in winter, perhaps in front of your potting table?

Try a heated farrowing mat. They are totally waterproof; large and tough enough for an 800 lb. sow to walk and lay on; will warm you and ease your arches at the same time, and probably outlast your GH.

They aren't advertised for that purpose of course, but like my outdoor ceiling fans, will produce the desired effect wonderfully.

Not stuck. It is called CW for a reason. SB

wow -- you guys are all so helpful.

Sorry I did not state this clearly -- I think someone stated it for me in a few words, but then later I got lost in the thread and forgot to clarify.

Here's the gist -- our income is really low. I am disabled, so can't work 'retail' hours. I am a former teacher and ran two businesses in the past.

My *very small* operation is called "Plant Babies", and basically I sell small houseplant starts, a handful of herbs and patio plants at Farmer's Market and other open-air venues around the area, besides growing tropicals for my home. The Columbia Gorge population is hungry for organically grown anything, so I plan to do seeds and sell veggie/herb starts at the beginning of each season.

So, while I am 'in it for money' in some ways, in other ways I'm not -- let's just say that I hope to make some money to supplement our lives, but if I don't make much I'm still going to be really happy, happy, happy to have a gh.

My lifelong dream.

I looked for work that I could do for the last five years, and it finally 'clicked' when someone asked me "what do you love?" I said 'my grandbaby and my plants'. So, she said "well, your house is a jungle, surely you can propagate these plants and sell them!". So, a week later I started doing just that.

Right now all the plants are in the house or on the fiberglass-covered N-facing 22x14' deck. It can get pretty hot and very windy, but the plants have been fine as long as they are watered, and when windy kept moist all the time. It's been 107 degrees out there, and inside the little slat-houses we built from old futon frames and cut-down 2x4's, it's been up to 98 degrees. It's cool to mist inside there and watch the temp drop 15 degrees!

Everyone keeps telling me that I 'probably won't' have to heat the gh much during the day in winter -- we are one of the top five sunniest winter locations in the country. This is a retirement destination. We're close to the Columbia River, so our winter temps are also modified by that. Just
6 blocks south of our home they get snow sometimes, but we rarely do. The last few winters our rosebushes were evergreen.

My Grant proposal is up to about $17,000.00, and that's choosing the least expensive but automated systems I can find!

I may be able to apply for other Grants on top of the disabililty Grant too.

anyway, thanks for being here -- someone is sending me books (my other love) about this topic.

Chris: I am really curious where you put the water-filled trash cans if not under the benches!

warmest regards to all,
di

Idea! Sorry for the threadjacking, Plant.babies.

BW, would the farrowing heat mat work effectively to provide container bottom heat to, say, my citrus containers? Is this link below the kind of thing you are talking about?

If you have a better source, I would appreciate it!

Thanks. SB

Here is a link that might be useful: Kane heat mat

Stressbaby:

CW?

Yes, the Kane heat mat is one version of a farrowing mat.

They are also used for whelping boxes and if the temp range on them would suit your citris plants; why couldn't it serve to bottom heat them as well as it does newborn pups or piglets?

I one that was originally used to toast early spring blizzard foals, and now have it under a 100 gal. tank, to warm through the substrate. It makes aquatic plants grow like dandelions in May.

Check out what's available in farm supply centers and pet catalogs, then turn your imagination loose.

BTW: it applies in the reverse too.

If a waterproof heating cable is safe to use in or under waterlogged plant trays, it's safe to use under the substrate in a fish tank, except when it's sold for plants, it costs half as much.

Electrical cords in a fish tank? YouÂre kidding right?

"If a waterproof heating cable is safe to use in or under waterlogged plant trays, it's safe to use under the substrate in a fish tank, except when it's sold for plants, it costs half as much"

Until the day it is no longer waterproof and you stick you hand in the tank. Trays on heat mats dry out. They also throw the switch on GFI circuits from leaking current. They ware out.
I hope it never happens to you and you don't have small children.

I'm thinking the manufacture has a different opinion..

"Electrical cords in a fish tank? YouÂre kidding right?"

No, I'm not kidding. Submersible tank heaters sit at the bottom of the tank and the cords obviously, go up, and out.

Ditto stock tank heaters, bird bath heaters, in-tank filters and underwater lights.

The most effective means of both heating any fresh water tank and stimulating root development in aquatic plants is heating cables buried under the substrate, but they are really pricey... unless labeled for use in the soil of seeding flats.

Same device, different labels and market; "upscale" aquariums, or plant growers, ordering from FarmTek.

Anyone who fails to ground every service box and use only GFCI devices anywhere near water deserves to get shocked, if only to wake them up.

But why would you think I was that stupid?

Sorry off topic. I once ran 250 gallon reef tank for over 5 years and would never run electrical lines in the water to heat. Period. Systems do and will fail.

As long as these were made for underwater submersion and stated so from the manufacture I can see you point but you haven't stated that. Looks like you using one product for something it was not intended for. Waterproof does not mean submersible. My watch is waterproof... itÂs not submersible

Not that you are but yes there are people that will read your post and get miss-lead. Then ZAP!

Life is risky. rather than saying 'never this' and 'don't do that', we should instead estimate the chance of fatal electrocution. Is birdwidow more likely to die from heart failure upon discovering everything has died in her pond? From legionaires disease from the warmer water?

Personally I'd be quite happy with using these double coated, waterproof heating cables. With a GFCI and grounded tank water it's hard to see how a fatal fault could develop with any more likelihood that someone dying from say an electrical fire somewhere else in the house.

Mylu, do you drive, or regularly use a car?

"Chris wants to grow veggies such as toms in an unforgiving climate. Performance and operating cost are key. Looks are a minor concern."

Looks are a minor concern????? OUCH!! that hurt... :)

(Going to the store tomorrow for some fancy wood trim) I think mine looks great from the highway half a mile away.

plant.babies,

The trashcans are the bench legs. Nothing is fixed in there it all moves around depending on what I am growing or doing in there.

mylu:

You are correct. I failed to state that the cables are submersible. They are completely sealed in a thick PVC jacket and the cord is every bit as waterproof as is any other rated for outdoor use.

They can be controlled with a thermostat designed for underwater use.

I really am not careless; I just try to think outside the box, but the heating cables don't happen to be one of my own "crazy" notions.

I learned about them from a professional water gardener who uses them to extend the season in his ponds.

jeez, you guys are making me laugh out loud! :)

I too am planning on using my drums as bench legs Chris! Great minds think alike, I guess (TIC)

I probably will paint them half black/half white though.

I got a good quote from High Desert GH's in Bend Oregon. They convinced me that I do not need both an exhaust fan system AND an entire array of auto-vents.

I am going to get two manual-open roof vents along w/ the exhaust system.

birdwidow,

You are a student of Greenhouse 101.

First lesson. Look for equipment for "greenhouses", then look for the same thing under "agricultural" (or if we are going to get really clever "for outdoor use")

Second lesson. A greenhouse is a bathroom, a kitchen, a pond, a hog house, a turkey shed. (look at the products, exact same item from a "greenhouse" supplier may be four times the price.)

Don't get me started on hydroponics or irrigation 101.

Yeah OK i will rant a bit. If it is for "hydroponics" or "irrigation" multiply the price by four for standard, off the shelf pipe and fittings. The specialist stuff is specialist, but the pipe and fittings are way overpriced.

plant.babies,

My exhaust fans are 1170cfm and I have two of them and each has a seperate thermostat.

They cost me $30 each (well $29.95 really plus tax)

Did High Desert GH's talk to you about air exchange per min?

plant.babies, if you are fixated on painting half your water drums, technically the dark side should be a 'selective surface' such as black chrome. And rather than white (which turns out to have basically the same light emissions for IR) use alfoil. even better if the alfoil is insulated with bubbles or foam :)

That's good to hear birdwidow...didn't want someone else to end up..well...just widow...

Nathan, I'm not even going to go down that road with you.
And no I drive a big'o truck :)

Plant. You may want to reconsider not having auto vents. That means your going to babysit you g/h. you'll have to monitor your temp constantly. You much better off with vents on a thermostat.

Thank you mylu. I don't want that either, because what other woman would warm his bed, cook his meals, fold his underwear and then put up with playing second fiddle to an old car?

On the other hand, the old sod is worth a lot more dead than alive. Hummn....

I learned a long time ago to always look for the exact same items, sold with different labels for different markets.

Try this: Major pharmaceutical mfg. runs a batch of pennicillin of 250 mg. per cc, in 100 cc vials.

Some get labeled for veterinary use and sell for about $15.00, but the exact same drug, from the same run, labeled for humans: 10 X cost.

Looking beyond labels doesn't always produce useful results, but it never hurts to at least check it out.

As the Catfish said: It ain't necessarially so.

ok -- winding through the posts, pulling out relevant material (not that easy :)

use some kind of foil on the inward side of the drums - can you explain exactly what that is?

YES -- High Desert did talk w/ me about air exchange - the gh I chose comes w/ a 16" and 2 16" - exchanging (according to the guy) every 2 minutes or so if I remember what he said. It's possible he said every one minute.

OK -- so, of the "systems" I can purchase, which ones can I buy CHEAPER at 'agra' places versus 'greenhouse' places?

Exhaust fan w/ thermostat

Aquafog or equivalent easy-to-hang-and-use

Hanging HAF Fans

I have ALREADY decided on Ag/Farm for

safety walkway mats
heaters
watering stuff
alfoil

mylu: ah, you're more a fatal roll-over sort eh? ;)

plant.babies: I presume the reason you want to paint the drums white is to reduce the radiation losses to the south side (I'm dubious about this, as polycarbonate already gives you complete blocking of those frequencies). Anyway, if you want to stop heat radiation losses white paint won't help, because at the frequencies of light we're talking about, black paint and white paint are the same colour! However, metals do emit less heat (one reason why metal gets hot in the sun - it can't cool as quickly by radiation) so alfoil will stop more heat escaping.

Black chrome is the delux version. It is a special metal treatment that looks black to our eyes (and thus absorbs most of visible light, and hence most of the available energy from the sun), but is metal like at heat radiation frequencies, and doesn't emit much heat at all. So it collects all most all the heat that hits it. It is commonly used for solar hot water collectors.

I could be completely wrong, you might just like the look of half white, half black drums?

BW, could you give me a source for your data on penicillin above?

Before I officially call you on this, I want to make sure you don't have an obscure source that I don't have here in my office.

SB

Stressbaby:

My source of information about penicillin was our equine practitioner, who learned things in the drug chemistry labs at one of the most respected schools of equine veterinary medicine in the US, that drug mfgs. don't really want advertised, but it's no big secret either.

If you shoot up a TB stud that just sold for a hundred million and it keels over because the drug was bad, the "value" of it's life wouldn't be subject to courtroom arguements.

So mfgs. really can't afford to risk making vials of such a broad use drug any less carefully for veterinary use than for humans, and they don't. Besides; it's faster and a whole lot cheaper to just switch labels than set up a different mfg. process.

But I used penicillin only as an analogy to illustrate a point about labels on many items, and what they may actually be, in relation to a USE.

May we get back to GHs now?

"Try this: Major pharmaceutical mfg. runs a batch of pennicillin(sic) of 250 mg. per cc, in 100 cc vials.

Some get labeled for veterinary use and sell for about $15.00, but the exact same drug, from the same run, labeled for humans: 10 X cost."

First, penicillin for oral human use does not come in the concentration you give.

Penicillin for injectible use is traditionally given in units, not mg. After searching the web, I was able to make the conversion, and none of my suppliers has penicillin for injectible human use in the concentration you give or the vial size you give.

Finally, ten days of Pen VK 500mg TID for human use is about $8 retail...you do the math.

I totally agree with you, that products marketed for one use may be more expensive than the same product marketed for another use. But if the facts in your illustration are wrong, your point is not well made. Now, I'm finished talking about penicillin, because it is a weekend and I'm not on call. So back to greenhouses...

Nathan - i am missing our emails!

Well, the thinking on the black/white drums is - black on the side to absorb sun, and white on the inside to reflect light to the plants.

Don't know who suggested the black/white thingy cause I can't keep track of everyone here -- I'm not good w/ *just names* (and especially usernames), I need a face to go with it! My proofreading team of 55 (based all over the world) sends me pics, otherwise I can't keep some of them straight even after a year! :)

My Plan is progressing nicely, and is almost ready to be submitted. I still have not heard from my ag agent.

BTW -- my sister is a Vet Dr., and she says the same thing about *some* drugs -- she can get stuff supposedly made for 'animal consumption' (which is just as good in her opinion), far cheaper than stuff marketed strictly for 'human consumption'

d