There are lots of systemic pesticide granules on the market, but the problem is they need to be applied long before you see the damage. It takes time for the plant to absorb the chemical and protect itself from bugs that like to eat it...

At this point your only hope is to spray the new brand new buds with something like Bayer Tree & Shrub Insect Control (Imidacloprid) and hope the new buds open...

Another choice is to replace the roses that attract the thrips... or to wait until they go away, they don't like the heat of the summer...

Also, are you SURE that the thrips are the reason that your blooms aren't opening?

Here is a link that might be useful: Bayer Advanced Shrub Protect Granules

You might have to wait a while (maybe a whole year) for the natural predators to get the thrip population back under control. If you start spraying then that won't happen.

Systemics (and lots of other insecticides) are not specific and thus kill good guys, including bees. I used to dip my buds in diatimatious (sp?) earth. It seemed to work. It gets the chewers but not the pollinators. Time consuming, but worth it.

I wanted to add that I've heard that systemic insecticides don't work very well on thrips because the petals don't take up very much of the insecticide. I know it doesn't work on japanese beetles. If I were you I'd try spraying a few of the buds with insecticide and see if it helps, but still leave some of them alone to try to attract predators. It must be very frustrating to have this problem when everything else is going well.

aggierose, I know some people are not going to like this but go ahead and use the insecticide spray. Buy yourself a 1 or 2 gallon sprayer and mix up orthenex it's endorsed by the American Rose Society or another brand like Bayer that kills Thrips, Aphids etc... and controls black spot for roses. Usually the best blooms of the year are the first flush in the spring. I grow roses to enjoy them and Too many times my first blooms were eaten and destroyed by thrips, what a big disappointment. Here in VA I have the first bloom in spring to really enjoy because by the end of June the Japaneese Beatles are here and then the blooms are eaten and gone in one day.

Cindy

Back in my early days I used Dy-siston granules every spring on my potted roses. After a few years I stopped and I didn't notice one whits worth of difference in the bugginess of my roses. The really "bad" bugs; Cucumber beetles, Grasshopppers and Thrips, are not affected by anything short of nuclear warfare, and the annoying ones like Aphids can be taken care of by less drastic means usually.....The exhibitors will tell you that the only thing to do for Thrips is to spritz Orthene every 3 days on the buds. Following this routine you can then expect an explosion of spider mites that will quickly become immune to the miticides you must constantly use against them. So you may end up with no Thrips but lots of spider mites instead. I don't blame you for being ticked off at Thrips. You might try just a couple times with Orthene on your most susceptible roses and see how that goes for you before you commit to the more drastic 3 day routine.

At this point I think I am going to take my chances and use the insecticide and see if it gets rid of my thrips. Last year I had thrips so I put down the bayer insecticide/fertilizer combo. My thrips were gone after I used it. I just really wanted to stop the insecticide use this year. I know that it will kill the good guys too, but I am a little confused on that. It will only kill the bugs if they eat the plant, right? So things like ladybugs and lizards won't die just because I sprinkled an insecticide on the ground, right, or am I totally wrong? I have tons and tons of good insects all over my yard, they just won't make their way to my rose bed. I think it is because the rosebed is completely surrounded by concrete (driveway, alleyway, etc)on all 4 sides with no other plants anywhere near. My good guys will still have plenty of yard and plants to thrive in far away from my roses.

[quote]"The really "bad" bugs; Cucumber beetles, Grasshopppers and Thrips, are not affected by anything short of nuclear warfare"[quote]

hahaha I like that and its so true. I purchased something this year that my local nursery recommended. Its called Bonide Sysemic Granules with 2% Di-syston. Also I got the Bayer 3 in 1 Insect Disease and Mite Control for the spider mites. I swear I will not go through this year what I went through with the trips last year, they were brutal! If I have them that bad this year I am putting my helmet on and will be throwing hand grenades into the whole mess, this is war!

also just want to add that some products will say that they will "kill" the thrips and other pests but some products say that they will "control" them. I wonder if there is a difference?

You know, I was discussing thrips with someone else this morning.
We found that both of us have had the same experience.
In gardens that have really established a balanced ecology without insecticides, we do both see a few occasional thrips. But neither of us (in very different conditions, hundreds of miles apart, sees any thrips DAMAGE.

Jeri

Does it seem they like the lighter colored blooms? I had some last year but not enough to be a problem. I am concerned they may return and wonder what natural predator would be the solution. I have ladybugs and praying mantis around the garden.

I thought, after I posted, that there's something else I should have said.
If you have been spraying your garden, and you decide to change that, you won't find the transition to be entirely smooth.
We found, as have others, that it took time for the formerly-sprayed garden to make that transition.
The time-frame may be different, in different environments, but I'd estimate it was a three-year process for us.
At that, I think the whole environment continues to evolve, even now.
And the first year, in particular, was trying.
In our case, the decision was easy. Chemical sprays triggered seizures in our dog.
How do you say to a dog, or a child, that you're sorry about them seizures, but the roses must be perfect?
In the end, the decision was right for us, and our garden is a good and happy place, not greatly troubled by pests.
But everyone must find his, or her, own tolerance-level.

Jeri

i would think if you have a heavy infestation of thrips that if you refrain from spraying, the ladybugs or other predator will eventually find them. But if you keep spraying they won't have any food to stick around for. I don't spray anything and have never seen a thrip, i only saw aphids on the roses i had on the sunporch for awhile, i guess the lady b's didn't find them. but the ones in the yard never seem to have any. I only really see the lady bugs when they overwinter in my house, or an occassional rare one in the yard, but i know they are there.

I don't spray insecticides more then maybe once a year if at all. So to say that my plague of Thrips in the 2005/2006 years was caused by a continued use of insecticides would be incorrect. Aggierose is new to roses and I would venture to guess from her question that she hasn't used bug killers on a repeated basis either. Sometimes bugs are cyclical. Sometimes they just happen. Sometimes Man is not the sole causal agent contributing to the woes of planet earth. It is always best to take care of your little patch of ground by tending to it with a view to all it's creatures, but sometimes, as the old bumper sticker says, "S*it Just Happens.

Maryl, you are right in that I have not used insecticides much at all. I have a front yard full of many beautiful 6 feet tall azaleas and several gardenias and a backyard full of many other plants. They have never been sprayed with anything and nature takes care of itself. I just planted roses for the first time last year and I did use bayer granular insecticide some. As I have mentioned before I have many, many beneficial insects, lizards, and birds all over my yard that I see all the time but they just seem to be ignoring my roses. There have been countless aphids on the roses so there was definitely a food source available. I don't even really mind the aphids since I haven't seen any visible damage at all from them. I have spoken to several different nurseries and after I tell them that my rose bed is surrounded by concrete on all sides with no other plants around they have all told me that it will be very difficult to control pests without spraying because the preditors won't ever have enough plants to attract them. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to be happening in my yard. They also told me that there aren't really any natural predators for thrips because once they get inside the flower buds ladybugs, etc.,can't eat them. Again, I don't know if that is true. So, I know lots of people don't like this, but I have decided to use the insecticides just on my roses. I just spend too much time and money on them to watch them get eaten. However, I am willing to start by just spraying the buds first to see if that will do any good. Hopefully that will work and I won't have to do anything else. I have several hundred buds that I'm waiting to see if they open or not. If I get lots of flowers I'll be happy. Hey, any bug that wants to come eat all my leaves...feel free. All I care about is getting the pretty flowers!

Thanks for all the advice so far! I always learn so much here.

I never really sprayed insecticide, and didn't have thrips until my 4th year of roses. The 'theory' was that the 3 hurricanes we in the SE had in 2004 brought the thrips up here. Who knows?

All I know is that they are here. I get them bad on a few roses, so I judiciously spray the slightly opened blooms on those in the hopes of killing the thrips before they can do any damage.

I think it is important to distinguish spot spraying of infected buds from wholesale spraying/drenching of an entire garden area.

Harry has a point here (gee, Harry, I actually agree with you!). But spot spraying isn't the same as spraying an entire garden.

Still, I don't spray for bugs either unless I have an infestation problem. I usually spot treat for thrips since they do seem to like my white roses, but leave everything else alone. Then I will also spot spray for spider mites on certain plants but not on my roses. I have huge colonies of ladybugs and praying mantis as well as other preditory insects. And then there are the birds. ALL the birds.

The saying goes..."Poison the pray and you poison the predator." Poisons are a bad thing, but in the right situation, they have their place.

JeriJen - I have 2 kitties and love my girls like you do your puppies. They follow me everywhere in the garden. So...I want to be perfectly clear that I won't hurt them if I only spray fungicide. Bought Gordon's Systemic Fungicide; active ingredient is propiconazole and also have the Bayer Disease Control. What do you think? Safe to use?

Aggie the advice you've received to spot spray the opening buds is excellent. Since your roses are in a hot, dry location (surrounded by concrete) they will be prone to spider mite infestations anyway. Using a systemic insecticide will greatly increase your spider mite problems. You should use a water wand to wash the rose foliage weekly when you water. Using a wand allows you to wash the underside of the leaves which is where the spider mites live. Washing the foliage is also a good way to kill aphids and it may reduce powdery mildew (another issue in dry locations).

In my north Texas no-spray garden I found that natural predators caught up with the thrips quickly, and they were only a factor very early in the season. Frustrating to lose some of those precious blooms in the 1st flush. Same with aphids--very short-lived problem. I never experienced the spider mite damage so devastating to many people's roses. Spraying, particularly insecticides, causes many more problems than its worth. A granular insecticide is worse than a liquid as it persists in the soil and disrupts not only the life cycles of all the insects, but the micro-organisms in the soil as well.

Since we are talking about spot spraying the blooms versus spraying the whole bush, I'd like to add that for those not affected by them (YET), if the Chili Thrips ever make it up your way then spot spraying will be like spitting in the ocean.

Terryjean, about your two cats and the danger posed by rose fungicides: You can look up both the short term (acute) and the long-term (chronic) toxicity of propiconazole (Banner Maxx or Gordons' Systemic) to animals at the Extoxnet site linked below. If you assume the values for rats, mice, dogs or rabbits are roughly comparable to those for your cats, then you could come up with the following conclusions:

Acute toxicity: the fatal dose of propiconazole for a two pound cat would be the amount present in one and a half gallons of spray.

Chronic toxicity: the NOEL (no observable effect level) for propiconazole would correspond to feeding the two pound cat about two and a half cups of the spray every day for two years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Propiconazole at Extoxnet

I would only add:

ALWAYS read the label carefully, and make sure you understand it.
Use chemicals according to directions, or don't use them atall.
To be sure about how harmful things are, check the Internet for effects of the ingredients in whatever you choose.

Finally, remember that a chemical may be harmful, short of a fatal dose.
Imidacloprid, for instance, is a known trigger of seizures in "susceptible individuals."
Guess how you find out if they are susceptible.
From my own experience, Orthene can also trigger seizures in "susceptible individuals,"
if used where the smell of it is detectable.

Jeri

I admit; I was very uneducated about different sprays and insecticides before I found this forum last year. Thanks so much for the information. I really, really appreciate the advice...so will Tabby and GooCat.
-terry

During the rose show this past weekend, two people brought in blooms and asked me to ID the pest. The problem was thrips. One guy handed me the label off his systemic rose food that said it was effective against thrips. Possible reasons it didn't work? Overusage comes to mind. Keep using the same systemic month after month and year after year, I'd guess it would be akin to overusing an antibiotic. It simply quits working after a while.

Thrips have been especially heavy this year. Could it be because I sprayed with Neem this winter to try to control what appears to be scale? Doubtful since thrips have been thick throughout the Valley for everyone. Sounds like they're a heavier-than-usual problem for many rosarians in other areas, too.

As for me, the damage is done and summer has already reared it's ugly head. No thrips can compete with the desert sun so they'll fry with the blooms.

In mentioning seizures, I have hand trembles for several hours after spraying Neem or Orthene. I wear the mask and gloves but still have the trembling.

Has anyone tried the double-sided blue sticky paper? I used to use the yellow traps for the whiteflies but they haven't been a nuisance for years, now.

In mentioning seizures, I have
hand trembles for several hours
after spraying Neem or Orthene.
I wear the mask and gloves but
still have the trembling.

*** I've never seen anything like that with Neem -- but to be honest, We've not even used THAT in the past year.
Orthene, tho. That certainly set off Frodo's seizures. You might want to do some research on that, or talk to your doc.

I guess it's like that old schtick:

Patient Asks: "Doc, It really hurts when I slap myself in the face like this. What should I do?"
Doctor Replies: "Quit slapping yourself in the face."
--G--

Note that much of the heaviest exposure can take place in the mixing process.

Jeri

Your hand trembles could be from the mechanical pressure of holding a sprayer for that long. You should probably talk to your doctor about it no matter what the cause.