i have a good bit of clay in my soil as well, so i can tell you from experience tha tno matter what tiller you get it will be hard the first time each year. we tilled mine with a tractor mount tiller last year adn it had the tractor hoppiing! i now use a plow and break the ground, then go back and till it up.

your best bet would be to work in some amendments and get the soil closer to sandy loam than clay and then almost any tiller will work easily.

No tiller, regardles of make, model or style, likes heavy clay soil. IMHO, your first task should be to truck in soil amendments such as rotted animal manures, compost, peat moss, washed sand or even top soil. The more you saturate the clay with all these items, the easier it is going to be for you to till and the better it will be for your plants.

The term "big garden" is subjective because what's big to you isn't very big to others. Big gardens are often best served with a rear-tine tiller. BCS is out of your budget, as is Honda. Perhaps a Troy-Built or MerryTiller will come close to that of the Honda Mid-Tine but if not, then the Honda is a good choice.

Deep tilling doesn't happen on the first pass. It takes multiple passes for any tiller to get to full depth. Maybe you should consider using a tractor with a PTO driven rear tiller on it to initially break this ground for you or use a two or three furrow plow on it. Then you can pour on the amendments and till those in repeatedly to get the soil to decent consistency.

FYI, the Mantis tillers are far from being junk. You just used one in the wrong application. They were never intended to be used in heavy clay soils and yes, a stone can cause them to jam. However stones can create issues for any type of tiller. I have had stones jam in my Honda rear-tine tiller. Once you get this soil into proper shape for gardening, you may come to miss that Mantis you returned. They are fantastic for keeping the weeds under control and can till around plants where the regular tillers cannot go.

Thanks for the replies so far ... the garden is 50'x60' but with a wide path through the from gate to shed and a second path to another gate from the center, so there's a 60'x22' section that gets planted with wide, raised rows and then two smaller squarish plots closer to 20'x25' each, one for pumpkins and one for 'whatever' (thinking of planting some grass there, actually, and using it as a play area for our daughter while we garden since we really don't need any more planting space at the moment ...)

I agree that the Mantis was a poor choice; unfortunately I wasted my time with it through a combination of hoping it was really as phenomenal as some of their marketing makes it sound and knowing that I could return it risk-free. FWIW, it *did* make much nicer prepped soil than any other tiller I've used, but at a rate that would take me all year to do it ! That's what makes me wish for the best of both worlds ... a tiller than can handle the heavy soil while it's still heavy (CRT) then prep it nicely like a FRT.

I think we'll do the soil amendments over time, partly because the entire garden is fenced in, and partly for cost/convenience (not having a lot of time to a big overhaul). It has been working to some extent already; some of the wide rows we've planted in repeatedly are getting better from a combination of turning in mulch & compost and lots of nightcrawler activity.

Any more thoughts on how easy the Honda mid-tine is to use (and how good it tills), how difficult it is to use a FRT in heavy soil while improving the soil, and how much better a FRT tills, etc. all appreciated.

Thanks,

- Dennis

saypoint1,

"(3) Honda midtine for deep tilling if it doesn't require too much wrestling !"

I've had lower back trouble off and on for over forty years. However, I use a mid-tine tiller (Merry Tiller) and it doesn't "require" any wrestling. I just relax and let it rock around as much as it wants to. It's not going to flip over and till the sky. Once you get used to using a tiller, you learn not to try to over-control it.

Troy-Bilt used to advertise that you could operate their tillers with one finger, and they ran cartoons of a poor guy being "tortured" by a front tine tiller. And to prove that he was being tortured, they put cartoon stars shooting out all around him.

That picture was believable to a lot of people who rented front tined tillers. The rental guy really couldn't show them how to operate the tiller. And after lifting the tiller out of the trunk of their car, their back was already "shooting a few stars".

A high tine speed and rocks are a bad combination, as you already discovered with your Mantis experience. Our Maine garden soil is fairly rocky and I wouldn't attack it with anything but my Merry Tiller. Its triple reduction transmission gives it a very high tine torque, together with a low tine RPM, and its dual V-belt clutch make the tines very controllable. It can roll out some surprisingly big rocks with no problem. Those rocks would most likely destroy a rear-tined tiller.

And I much prefer the deep tilling capability of mid-tined tillers. My Merry Tiller is "rated" for 12-inch tilling, but by taking a little more time, I have no difficulty tilling my garden to 16 inches deep and a little more. That's equivalent to "double digging" with a spade, and a lot easier. I've double-dug a few gardens with a spade and, believe me, the tiller is easier.

By contrast, rear tined tillers are hard-put to till to 6 inches, and many of their actual tilling jobs are much shallower.

MM

MM,

i agree with you that a rear tine is hard pressed to till 6 inches. mine says it will go to 7", but i rarely see that unless i till the same place 4 or 5 times or am tilling really loose soil.

the first year i had the tiller i hated using it. i would try to make it till deeper on a single pass and would wear myself out. i finally figured out to just let it do the work, and till twice, and now it is easy as can be. i DO use mine with 1 finger other than when turning!

saypoint1, that is a good sized garden. mine is 100x100, but broken into 2 ~40x100 sections with a wide open area in the middle for hoses and room for the tractor to drive thru. the old man who had the house before me had 2 full acres dedicated to the garden, but he was retired and that is all he did. he worked it all with a late '70's model front tine tiller!

MM - thanks for the midtine tiller encouragement ... I'll give that some more thought. Called McCann who pointed me to Beta Power in Northborough MA who gave me the names of a couple power products dealers within an hour drive and neither of them had even heard of the line ... they can "get them" thorugh Beta, but that's about the extent of it ... furthermore, one of those doesn't carry any tillers except Echo cultivators (I actually ran into that at another dealer last week). Says fewer people are gardening and those that do buy junk at Home Depot. I've got one of them getting a sample price on a Merry for me just to help with my decision. At least there's a Honda Power Equipment dealer in the area if I want to pursue theirs. Unfortunately, nobody has a "try before you buy" plan and this isn't a popular enough hobby around here for me to know people with tillers that I can check out.

The guy I spoke with at Beta Power said the trick with the midtines is to push down and let the drag bar do the work which makes an awful lot of sense. I'm thinking a midtine might be nice for the garden which is the primary use for a tiller; only very occasional need to break up sod & dig a hole or prepare a planting area so I could live with a little grief.

I read a lot about "power composting" (turning in plant material) ... does that cause me any additional consideration when picking a tiller ? (i.e. does a midtine do any better or worse when turning in cover crops if mowed down ?)

thx again !

Dennis I read your first post carefully. Here's what stands out:

1. You thought the Mantis shouldn't ingest rocks.
2. You thought the Troybilt shouldn't "skate" or lurch forward on your soil.
3. You didn't mention prepping the area by watering the night/day before.
4. You said the tines weren't "sharp."

All of these things are expectations that a "new" user would have. The mantis' only draw back for you is the area you're doing is pretty big.

A used troybilt "horse' model will handle your needs but not until you become accustomed to how to run it. You set your tines too deep too soon. You (probably) didn't water the plot ahead of time. I'm familiar with Saybrook; No one has a tiller that will "breeze through" what you have. What you experienced was normal. There's no "magic" to the tine direction.
You're fighting simple physics, no matter what machine you use. It will take a few hours to get the soil prepped; a few seasons to get it in really good shape. Your expectations are just a little high, that's all.
Rent a (heavier) rear tine machine and take your time.
-br

Dennis,

"I read a lot about "power composting" (turning in plant material) ... does that cause me any additional consideration when picking a tiller ?"

I think "power composting" refers to pulverizing the grass and weeds with a high tine speed. Mid-tined tillers work more like a farmer's plow, by simply burying the grass and weeds by turning them under. But their slow tine speeds do not "power compost" in the sense you have read about. Incidentally, power composting also makes mincemeat out of the earthworms, which is not a desirable effect. Even when I am tilling 16 inches deep, I am not hurting my earthworm population. I might occasionally cut one in two, but that may just make two earthworms. I do my composting in compost piles and I use my MacKissic shredder-chipper to do any of the "power composting" that I want done. The MacKissic hammermill does a much better job of making compost than high-speed tiller tines can do. And "power composting" rocks does not work well.

I was lucky enough to have a Merry Tiller dealer a few miles down the road from here, but if you don't have a Merry Tiller dealer handy, you could order online from West Power tools. They have competitive prices and free shipping on orders over $250. I would recommend the International Model. You can pay more to get it with a 5.5HP Honda engine, as I did, but the Honda engine version doesn't come with an on-handle throttle control and the 6HP Briggs & Stratton OHV Intek I/C is quite good and has an on-handle throttle control. It's quite debatable whether the Honda engine option is worth the extra cost.

West Power Tools also sells a lot of the Merry Tiller accessories. Although I purchased my Merry Tiller locally, I purchased some of my Merry Tiller accessories from West Power Tools. I purchased a set of Pick Tines, a set of Finger Tines, and a plow and plowbar from them and I plan to purchase a set of self-sharpening Bolo Tines sometime later this year. Some of the stuff they drop-shipped directly from MacKissic.

Another online source of Merry Tiller stuff is The Lawnmower Shop, although I don't have any direct experience dealing with them.

I would suggest talking on the phone directly with anybody you purchase from online. My locally purchased Merry Tiller came with extra-wide 37-inch slasher tines standard, as well as a lift handle (which doubles as a "bumper" if you are tilling close to an obstacle). I ordered the optional Merry Tiller Wheel and Dragbar System through my dealer, and my tiller came with that feature factory installed. It's quite handy, and worth the extra cost, in my opinion.

MM

Thanks all ... I was starting to think a Merry midtine might be the way to go, knowing that it might be more difficult at first (and watering ought to help !) but better over the years as I amend the soil, and that the ability to till deep is probably what I want to help get this soil in shap. I'll check out the web dealers posted by MM since a local purchase seems impractical. Meanwhile, I stumbled across a lightly used BCS 710 w/18" tiller for a good price and am seriously considering that.

I think my issues with the Mantis were that, much like Troy-Bilt's ads, marketing materials show it working in wonderful loam and that has nothing to do with how it "breaks new ground". As for the rocks/stones, the old 5HP Craftsman used to churn them up, occasionally get them jammed, even bent the side shields once with a nice sized stone, but I could always get them out and go right back to tilling. Maybe it was the Mantis' serpentine tines, but a small stone (an inch diameter ?) jammed into those things so badly within 15 mins that it would have taken me another 15 mins (guessing) to go get tools and remove it.

I tend to agree that my problems with earlier tillers may likely have been from not knowing how to use them (assuming it was easy since I managed to do pretty well with that Craftsman) ... and that's why I'm here :)

P.S. Boltonranger: I actually live in Sharon up in the NW corner, not Saybrook. Soil varies, but ours is clayey; a 1970's conversion of farmland to a few building lots. Oddly, when I tried to register for this site, I found that someone (named "John Doe", believe it or not ;) already registered an account back in 2006 using my email address under the user name "Saypoint1" ... of course, they couldn't activate it without getting to my email acct, so boom - I'm saypoint1 instead of ctgardener or ctyankee which is my handle elsewhere (photography forums, etc).

Thanks again !