Are you trying to make a container soil for use in pots, or are you trying to improve soil for the garden? The needs for these are really different.

If you compost the apples and other things before use (which you really should), you shouldn't need to worry about the acidity. Be careful with the charcoal and wood ash, and use them only sparingly.

I think you're really talking about making compost, not making soil. You can add the compost to your soil (either incorporating it or putting it on top and letting the soil microbes and earthworms incorporate it for you) but over time, it will continue to decompose and lose volume.

I would leave the stuff in the forest where it is. If you take it and later put something else back, it's not the same as what you took.

I'm curious, how do you make coal from wood?

I think I know the difference between soil and compost. My idea is to create a compost that can be used as soil, not merely as an additive. Am I wrong to assume this is possible by balancing pH, consistency and nutrients?

I know you need to maintain soil every year, and that is the purpose of compost, but I plan to make charcoal out of old soil, so this is unnecessary.

There are a few ways to make charcoal, depending on how much you want to make at a time, and how much you care about the environment. Here is a sight that I just found by doing a search on yahoo, it should tell you all you need to know. I'd explain it, but I'm busy making some!

I think I know the difference between soil and compost. My idea is to create a compost that can be used as soil, not merely as an additive.

Ok, so unlike the title of your post, your goal is to make compost that can be used as a growing mix (can't really call it soil as it lacks most of the minerals).

You would be amazed to know how many folks think that making compost is the same thing as making soil (dirt) which of course, it isn't. The terms are sometimes used interchangeably but it causes confusion. Just like "coal" and "charcoal" aren't the same thing and causes confusion. You can't make coal from wood but yes, you can make charcoal. ;)

For example, what you are raking up from under the pine tress is composted humus (decomposed pine straw), not soil. But yes, it can be used like soil would be though it may be deficient in minerals and micro-nutrients because it is only a single component - pine straw.

But many folks grow in straight compost which is what you are looking to do I think. They do it in containers, raised (enclosed beds) and in lasagna beds. I don't care for it's associated problems personally, but it is done.

A good quality finished compost made from a wide diversity of ingredients (more than the 3 you list), has a good C/N ratio, and that is essentially pH neutral can be used as a soil-less mix in any semi-contained area. ie: lasagna beds are essentially compost piles used as a garden bed. Can you get kitchen scraps, green grass clippings, any manure, used coffee grounds, etc. to add to it?

As an alternative, if you add to it 1:1 parts of peat and compost and a bit of lime or wood ash to balance the pH what you end up with is the basic soil-less potting mix sold in bags by several of the big name companies. Works great in containers of all kinds. Just needs additional nutrients added in some form throughout the growing season.

I hope this helps.

Dave

Where in the United States are you?
What kind of soil are you starting with? Clay? Sand? Silt?
To make charcoal you need to burn organic matter which puts out more pollutants, and causes the loss of more nutrients, than chipping that same material and using it as mulch would. Compost will balance out and the end pH of all the compost I have made in the last 45 or so years has been around 7.0. The only thing I have seen wood ash, or charcoal, do in a compost pile is slow the digestion process down

Clayman said:

"My idea is to create a compost that can be used as soil, not merely as an additive. Am I wrong to assume this is possible by balancing pH, consistency and nutrients?"

I think what you and Bpgreen have is a misunderstanding of terms. I am thinking your goal is to create soil that will not lose any volume once added due to decomposition. If this is the case, the only way to do such a thing is to add "humus" not compost to your soil. Such a thing can be done, however it will require a little more than what you are planning to do; allow me to explain how I accomplish such a goal.

In order to create humus one has to allow compost to reach such a stage before adding to the soil. In order to do this one must allow said compost to "cure/mature" long enough to reach the state of humus. I do this by allowing compost to break down to a "finished" state; I then screen the compost and store it in 55-gallon drums until it reaches the state of humus. Once it has decomposed to said state I now mix the humus with "leaf mold" using the "Tiffy" technique. The photo below shows humus from one of the drums on top of a layer of charcoal, which is on top of a layer of leaf mold:

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As you can see the humus resembles soil (loam), yet it possesses maximum nutritional value due to the nature of humus and the original materials that made up the compost in the beginning. The material is then mixed together resulting in this:

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This mixture is then added to the soil as mulch. As the season progresses the leaf mold protects the soil, the humus is carried into the soil by moisture and the soil food web, and the soil level remains the same or slightly higher. As time passes, the humus moves deeper into the soil, the leaf mold becomes part of the soil as well, and the original soil is completely amended with rich organic matter that resists further decomposition. The humus and the charcoal will hold both nutrients and moisture, yet add structure and permanence as it moves deeper into the soil. The leaf mold provides weed suppression and additional organic matter to feed the soil food web.

Simple really, all it calls for is desire, time, and the patience to allow the compost to mature. The above humus took about 1 (one) year to reach the state it is in. If allowed to further decompose it will take on the texture of sandy loam or clay depending on how much water is added during the process and weather clay or loam was added during composting.

The site you provided to make charcoal is excellent IMO; I use a similar technique when I make bio-char, however your site offers an easier way to keep the fire going during the burn. I do plan on modifying my drum, thanks for the link. I trust this helps or at least puts some ideas spinning in the head; anything is possible if we work together IMO

Blutranes

Thanks blutranes, that is helpful. That's what I intend to do, just never heard of it being done before. I've heard the term "hummus" but didn't know exactly what it was. Thanks

Making charcoal using wood scraps and natural gas actually cuts down on pollution. I will try to explain, but I ask you to do some research yourself, search "biochar" that is how I've learned most of what I know.

When wood rots on it's own, it releases methane, co2 and other gasses, plus some made from the bacterias. When you turn it into charcoal you "fossilize"(for lack of a better term) much of the carbon, and you burn ALL of the methane.

Even if you use wood instead of natural gas, which is what I am doing right now in small batches, burning the methane that would otherwise seep out over time, cuts down on pollution. So you are making some CO2 now and preventing LOTS of CO2 later.

I don't know if your talking about other pollutants maybe. I am concerned about this too though. Please send me some links if you've heard conflicting data.

I am in Maine, north eastern US, zone 5ish. I am growing in both containers and raised beds, but mostly just experimenting. Thinking of starting a small business to fund research.

Are you anywhere near Brewer, clayman? The Brewer recycling center is a wonderful, wonderful place. Compost, leaves and grass clippings free for the taking.

I'm between Brewer and Bar Harbor.

Clayman said:

"I don't know if youre talking about other pollutants maybe. I am concerned about this too though. Please send me some links if you've heard conflicting data."

No, pollution is not a concern, there are ways to avoid the release of CO2; add BIM or EM to your soil, they will adsorb CO2 and turn it into sugar to feed the plants. Fermented organic "brews" added to aerobic microorganisms work together to use all organic matter in the soil to be fed to the plants is my understanding. With the addition of charcoal to the soil, not only are adsorbed nutrients available to plants for a very long time, it also increases the microbe population due to the natural tendency of the soil food web to consume organic matter (charcoal) and produce enzymes, vitamins, humic and fulvic acid, and other hormones to aid in the health of the soil and plant in the process.

The discovery of increased microbe populations was revealed as (good and bad) news recently by Swedish scientists:

"They found that when charcoal was mixed into humus, there was a substantial increase in soil microorganisms (bacteria and fungi). These microbes carry out decomposition of organic matter (carbon) in the soil, and consistent with this, they found that charcoal caused greatly increased losses of native soil organic matter, and soil carbon, for each of the three forest stands. Much of this lost soil carbon would be released as carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas." (See link below)

Good news for those wishing to increase microbe populations for organic gardening/farming, bad news for those looking to use forest soil to add charcoal to store CO2. They still are trying to figure out exactly what is the best use of charcoal as a carbon sink to store greenhouse gas. For those of us who are growing organically it is even better news to know "one" of the things charcoal does when added to soil. "Science Daily" has a wealth of information for those interested; get your favorite drink and have at it. I would go so far as to suggest one signs up for one (some) of their daily or weekly newsletters.

Let me say one thing about using 55-gallon drums to store compost if I may. The only reason I use drums to store compost is because of "fire ants", that vermin of a pest that is a plague on the southern USA. Were it not for them getting into anything on the ground I would store my compost on the ground in a bin. The same results can be obtained; it is just a matter of knowing ones climate and making proper adjustments. The main thing is "time", give the compost time to do what it does, and then it will do what it does.

I have been using charcoal for over 4 (four) years now; I hadnt stumbled upon the page you posted yet, and for that I thank you. I do make biochar during the summer months, the fireplace during the winter. Thus I can mix the two during the year, they both appear to do the same thing IMO; I rarely use the ash, and then only in small amounts.

Best wishes on your project. If you have as much fun/success as my neighbors and I enjoy it would be a project to remember. If I can help in any way please let me know, I live in this neighborhood

Blutranes

Thanks a lot for the resources, I am reluctant to stand up for anything for this one reason, you never know if it's as good as it seems.

And, no I'm nowhere neer brewer. I'm neer Lewiston, I will check at the transfer station for the closest project like that.

That's an interesting link blutranes. What I got from it is that if there's an already healthy soil biology, adding charcoal will essentially "burn" it out, as it supercharges the decomposition rate.

From this I can conclude that poor soils can be turned into rich fertile land with charcoal. I remember reading somewhere that entire desert strips could be turned into oases simply by adding biochar

Takadi said:

" What I got from it is that if there's an already healthy soil biology, adding charcoal will essentially "burn" it out, as it supercharges the decomposition rate."

Exactly Takadi, why would anyone want to add charcoal to a healthy forest? But, for one wanting to use forest soil to grow crops, adding charcoal, or even burning off residue left from a harvest will only add soil organisms consuming the charred remains. For those who have abused synthetic chemicals and depleted the soil it could mean the ability to reverse said abuse and give one a "new start" in life. This is why forests have such a rapid growth rate after a fire; the soil has been given the ability to correct the loss from the fire. The knowledge has far reaching implications.

For instance, how can those with short growing seasons use this knowledge? Knowing that adding charcoal will guarantee the soil will have an abundance of soil food web ready to go to work as soon as the temperature gets close to optimum range. For those in the south, where the hot sub-tropic sun accelerates decomposition anyway, knowing that soil amended with charcoal will "still have" an abundant population of microbes trying to decompose those hard to compost organic matter, and ready to provide maximum fertility with a small addition of organic matter.

Think about those who are trying to use "rock dust" to reminerializing depleted soil, or soil that has been abused by a century of adding toxic chemicals to the soil. Again, an immediate new lease on life by the addition of biochar can be had. And too, because of the nature of charcoal (one step away from becoming a diamond, only lacking pressure and time), the long-term effects will be in the soil for a very long time (as seen in the Amazon). Having a "super rich" carbon soil amendment, combined with a "super rich" nitrogen source (charcoal soaked in Alfalfa tea), organic matter teeming with natural nutritional components (seaweed, sea salts, compost), and a soil food web ready to get busy on all of it is a dream come true for some (a nightmare to others). The only thing missing is an innocent plant that has happened to be planted in the middle of this "situation", and moisture. Did I mention someone happening to spray or pour BIM, EM, or compost tea in the vicinity of this predictive explosion of growth?

If we discuss this all the way through, and use the knowledge responsibly we may have a situation on our hands where we can do some good for a change. We may even reach the state of being "harmless" as we feed ourselves healthy food, correct our past mistakes, and make ready a future full of potential for our children and beyond

Blutranes

That's what I was thinking takadi, the effects of charcoal on soil seems karmic almost. The more you need it the better it is, the less you need it the more harm it does.

I was thinking about micro-climates though, which we are doing underground by making soil, but when it comes to the air itself, the CO2 produced by the fungi and bacteria when they eat the plant matter, wouldn't this create a micro climate? People spray their indoor plants with CO2 or set vinegar and baking soda around to do the same thing. Obviously being outside with air circulating the effects will be more subtle, but the production of CO2 is relatively constant. Plus the CO2 seeps up from the ground, do plants absorb CO2 through their roots?

If one grew in a greenhouse type of getup, this would capture some of that CO2 and it would be great for the plants.

Is CO2 lighter than oxygen? if it is heavier than you might be able to just plant hedges or vines on walls around your crop which will hinder air flow, plus the hedges will benefit from the CO2 as well.

There is a lot of stuff to research.