My Chrysler Imperial never really took off--and after our rough winter this year just petered out--to nothing. I replaced it with Oklahoma--mainly because the only red my corner nursery carried was Oklahoma--and I must admit, I'm really enjoying this one. Such BIG and darkly beautiful blooms. Don't know if it will rebloom better than Chrysler Imperial did (I hope so), but at least it is already a much more vigorous plant, so I'm optimistic for now.

Too soon to tell about disease-resistance. That is the only thing I'm somewhat worried about.

As for Mr. Lincoln, I enjoy my neighbor's over my back fence. Beautiful rose--but taller than I want.

Kate

I guess it has been a while since I mentioned this. In a public garden in Asheville were planted long double rows of HTs--'Peace', 'Arizona'. 'Dainty Bess', and several more. These were grown without irrigation or sprays. After a while, between blackspot and winter damage, there was not much left but Dr. Huey and Manetti rootstocks and 'Chrysler Imperial'. Most of those CI plants have survived for 25 or 30 years.

I often hear these tributes to Chrysler Imperial, but mine--which I had for 3 years-- never was a happy camper. Quite disappointing after all the praise I'd read.

Have to admit I'm quite enthralled by the dark red bloom of Oklahoma. Was just outside admiring it. It is planted along my Perfume Path--HT big smelly blooms! It is across from Valencia--quite a pair they make welcoming the visitor to dally along the stepping stone path through the middle of a big rose (and mixed) bed, the HTs lining the path for easy smelling access. : )

Kate

Would love to see pics of your 3 roses molineux....

Great advise. I only have Oklahoma and I adore it. Big. Beautiful. Fragrant.

Jim, here is the photo that shows best the separate plants that made up the big 3-in-1 Molineux bush. This pic is from 2013.

{{gwi:218933}}

Unfortunately, one of the trio abruptly died last summer--I have no idea why--so now I have only two Molineux left, but I decided that two of them would still make a decent impact from across the yard, so I'm sticking with them for now. The bad news was the brutal winter we just had--the two Molineux had to be pruned back practically to the ground. As a result, this is what they look like now. Note that only one bush is blooming; the non-blooming bush to the right is Molineux also:
{{gwi:266617}}


I am happy to report that in the 10 days since I took that picture, both Molineux bushes are now blooming and looking quite healthy, if not exactly vigorous yet.

Kate

It must be location. I've never had Chrysler Imperial but I had Mr. Lincoln and he was a wimp that died off on me. He was spotty and slow to grow and didn't bloom much. And I do have Oklahoma which is lovely but I don't find it all that fragrant and it's not very disease resistant at all. On top of that it's very slow to repeat for me. Not my favorite but it winters well so I keep it.

I love the blooms of Chrysler Imperial, mine wasn't very vigorous or hardy, but I have replaced it and will continue to grow it, because it is my DH's favorite. I planted Mister Lincoln this spring, hasn't bloomed yet, so I don't have an opinion. Other than the spring flush my roses don't seem be doing that great, so this year may not be a very good test for it.
.

I've grown all three. IMO , Chrysler Imperial created the best overall bush,
( shape, foliage and bloom) but the dark red blooms of Oklahoma seemed to hold their color better during the heat; which was an issue with Mr. Lincoln.
All three were very fragrant.
Lynn

Hey, Patrick, this thread you've started has put a smile on my face. Totally lovin' this Image of Mister Lincoln by arockerdude at Hortiplex. Thanks, my old friend!! I agree with you that Chysler Imperial is a jewel of a rose, and I don't mind the bluing as it ages. Take good care of yourself. :-)

I took our own root Mister Lincoln out from in front of the house and put him in a large container. He was way too boring for a front spot...

I'll see how he does in a container which I can move around... I'm totally not a pot person though...

I had to laugh at your totally appropriate description of Mr. Lincoln without fussing - "a butt ugly shrub that rarely blooms but survives anything". I have a mystery rose that I inherited from the previous owners of my house that I've called Mr. Lincoln until I properly identify it, and your phrase describes it to a T. I wanted to post a picture last year to properly ID it but it didn't bloom all summer. Not once, the little runt, and it's at least 8 years old. I have finally coaxed it from a one-cane wonder to a two-cane wonder, so if it ever blooms this year I'm going to try your ruthless tough love and see if he responds. I really appreciate the advice, and you're right that once established he is indeed a survivor.

I also agree that Chrysler Imperial is the most reliable of the three, and mine is already blooming in my yard after being cut to the ground, well ahead of most of the other HTs. He's decidedly pinkish at the moment, but has that classic HT shape and at least some fragrance.

Oklahoma and I seem to be destined to be two ships that pass in the night, as I've tried and killed at least three plants of that one. I'm determined to try, because I dearly love that black-red color, but I'm wondering if he is just one of those roses that don't like me (French Lace being the most notable frequent failure)

Thanks for the detailed comparison between these - it helps appreciate their various merits.

Cynthia

so....what happens if you don't prune Mr. Lincoln after each bloom? Does it turn into a rose tree? I happen to like that look!

Hi Molineux,

I just have a question on "HARD" pruning Mister Lincoln to keep him looking nice...

Let's just say the blooms you want to cut are at about 5 ft. high - what would you consider a "HARD" pruning to be in inches or feet?

Thanks, Lori

Two feet above the graft.

You know, Nipstress, it could be your zone. French Lace and Chrysler love my dry, relentlessly sunny LA garden. They do beautifully for me.

Mr. Lincoln is a terrific rose for me, too, and I, too, got it with the house. The bouquets last me forever.

Great thread. Mr. Lincoln was one of my first roses and we love it. I thought it was a goner this year, all the canes died back to the graft. But as soon as the sun warmed us up a bit, it put out two new canes. The graft union was above the ground, so I dug it up and replanted it because the union was so big and ugly, especially on a now tiny plant. Plus I want to avoid winter kill if we get another winter like the last one. I had a nice bud on it, the deer took care of that. Probably for the best, because it's still getting acclimated to it's new spot. My Mr. Lincoln does tend to get bluish, I once had a late fall bloom that was almost amethyst in color. The fragrance is out of this world. I too have discovered the pruning secret. After he blooms, I do cut that cane down to about 18 inches. And I will usually get a new cane up to about 4 feet tall after that. If I let it go natural, it will be close to 7-8 feet straight up at the end of the growing season. Since I'm only 5 feet tall, I need to keep it low.

Oklahoma I had once as a $5 HD special. It didn't survive one year. But I just bought it again at a nursery sale. It had one bloom so far, very dark red with black tinges. I'm excited about it.

I never had CI, but when I went bargain hunting at that local nursery, they had CI along with Oklahoma, so I now have the whole trio. CI has not bloomed yet. I had to cut it down a lot when I brought it home. I don't have a spot for it yet, but it will get a prime one.

Of course I do spray, so I don't worry about disease too much. My dream is to have an arrangement of these three all together. Along with a nice white rose. Can anyone recommend a white HT that has a nice bloom form to complement these 3?

For a white, Pope John Paul II is very popular on this forum, although I have not grown it. My white is Memoire (also called Ice Cream). Both have pretty good disease-resistance in my region, but Pope John Paul is taller--maybe 4-5 ft--and Memoire is shorter--maybe 2.5-3 ft.

I'd love to see a photo of all three of your fragrant reds blooming at the same time.

Kate

My local nursery has all 3 and I wasn't sure which one to choose but your descriptions of each rose has helped me decide. I am going to go for CI. It sounds like what I want, a beautiful shaped bush with beautiful fragrant roses with a good repeat bloom. Thanks for breaking it down!

How are all 3 in terms of disease resistance? I am reluctant to get roses which you have to spray for black spot.

I just asked out of curiosity and kinda knew that the 3 mentioned were not the best in terms of disease resistance. I do have Double Knockout at my house as well as the Kordes 'Grande Amore' which is a gorgeous hybrid tea red rose. See attached photo of 'Grande Amore' taken this June.

Beautiful pic Jazzmom. Thank you for posting it. BTW, red HTs aren't the worst-of-the-worst. The lavender HTs are the worst. LOL!

I have 3 Oklahoma plants which are healthy & have pretty
nice-looking foliage. I live in BS country but don't spray.

Here's plant #1. I got it 4 years ago & thought it froze to death this past winter but miraculously it came back to life. As you can see the bud is black-red but the flowers themselves are a lighter color. This bloom is about 3" across.

Here's another Oklahoma that I bought this spring before I knew that my original plant would pull thru. For some reason, the bloom on this plant is bigger @ 4.5" across. The scent is delicious & the petals are a velvety dark red even though it looks lighter in the photo. Foliage looks pretty healthy but the weather has not been too humid here in Brooklyn yet, so I'll have to see how it does the rest of the summer.

I have had Chrysler imperial since early May and so far it has been an ideal rose for me. It has had three beautiful flushes for me so far, and they just keep getting better, where as most of my other roses bloom size has decreased in this heat, it seems like C.I.'s only get bigger. I have a strictly no spray garden, you can see my giant basil plant in the photo is right next to C.I., so no poisons for me or my garden critters. This rose has had zero blackspot, & I have several roses very nearby that do, I am very happy about this because blackspot is a major issue here. It has had a touch of powdery mildew at times, but it really isn't that noticeable, unlike all my other hybrid teas which are covered in BS & are all defoliating at is point & look horrible. The fragrance even sticks around during the hottest part of the day, unlike several fragrant Austin's I have. Overall I see why this rose is an old favorite, it is quickly becoming a favorite of mine! Here is a photo from 2 days ago:

{{gwi:266620}}

Jessica

Thanks Molineux - I'm going to try the hard prune with my Mr. Lincoln. It was much better last year. This year it has only one bloom - and a scrawny one at that. But since, it overwintered in the garage - it never lost any of its height. That could be the problem.
BTW - here's my picture of Mr. Lincoln from last year when it did better.
Carol

Here's a picture of my Oklahoma from last year.
It's a darker red and seems more velvety.

Here's a close up of the velvetiness of Oklahoma

My Mr. Lincoln I got as a $5 body bag last spring is badly disfigured with what appears to be RMV. Barely tolerable for a cheapo I was planning on growing as an annual, but anyone who wants a permanent planting might want to go for own root.

Hello to everyone! First time poster. I am fairly new to roses, and definitely new to this website. I am thrilled to have found it. What a wonderful place to feed an addiction to roses! BTW, I love everyone's pictures of their roses that they have shared, GORGEOUS! Just thought I would share my limited experience with these roses since I am growing all three. Of the three, Oklahoma blooms the most in this heat and humidity. Mr Lincoln smells wonderful but has been a bit stingy. Chrysler imperial is about to get the shovel as it has been a complete dud. I wish I could have had one that was productive like people are raving about but I will not be replacing it. I have a few other reds that are not mentioned in this thread , but are worth giving a shout out to they are Olympiad (no smell to my nose) but good rebloomer. Kardinal is my best red as it is always in bloom, and the blooms last weeks on the bush and as a cut flower. This one doesn't smell to me either. The one that smells wonderful and puts out lots of blooms is mirandy. She does blue as she ages but that is not a deterrent for me as her smell compares to that of double delight. I am trying to make room for some more roses in my small garden, but I thought I might try some antique or David Austin roses since I have seen so many beautiful pictures of them on this website and their are so many positive reviews on them. I did buy one this spring, molineux. Thank you Dublin bay, your picture of the 3 n 1 pushed me over the edge and I had to have it! Mine is still a baby but I'm hoping for the best. Does this rose tolerate shade? Thanks again for Sharing your experiences with you roses.

I have these three (and a few other "super-fragrant reds") growing own-root in large pots with annuals at their base. The two brothers 'Oklahoma' and 'Mister Lincoln' are growing much larger than their parent 'Chrysler Imperial'. I also have a half-brother of the two (all three have 'Charles Mallerin' as one of their parents), 'Big Ben', which I'd also recommend giving a try. If you can find them, 'Mirandy' and 'Nocturne' are also deliciously fragrant. I have a few others on my "future possibilities" list -- there's something addictive about the fragrant reds.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: My pot-pet red Hybrid Teas

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 1:21

AquaEyes those are some pretty fabulous reds your displaying! Love the pot pets! Ingenuous way to try out so many reds. I have never heard of nocturne or big Ben. I found that roses unlimited has them listed. Out of all your reds that you grow, do you think these are two that have it all, meaning--fragrant, beautiful color, and good vase life? I am envious of your neighbor. Just call me Mr. Rogers, would love for you to be my neighbor! Compliments again on your works of art.

I notice that the older ones in the group don't last as long in the vase as the more recent ones -- 'Nigrette' and 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' will start looking rather sad by Day 2 in the vase. I think this has much to do with stem thickness -- the more modern red HTs are more robust. 'Nocturne' will start to "blue" much faster than 'Big Ben', which is fine with me because it turns to a color I enjoy.

For overall vase life (so far), I'd say the winners would be 'Big Ben', 'Mister Lincoln', 'Oklahoma', 'Red Masterpiece' and 'Velvet Fragrance' (not in ranked order). And yes, they are all beautifully scented, but if I was to pick my favorites in that area, I'd go with 'Crimson Glory', 'Heart's Desire', 'Mirandy' and 'Nocturne'.

I can't get them all (only so much room for pots, and I have another "genre" of roses for pots in mind for next year), but here are others I put on my "future possibilities" list that fall into the "fragrant dark-red or crimson HT" genre, in case you were curious to look up others. Note that some are old, and won't look like what many who are used to modern roses would expect for a Hybrid Tea.

'Avon' (1961)
'Barcelona' (1932) -- sold as 'Francis Dubreuil' by some
'Black Lady' (1976)
'Charles Mallerin' (1947)
'Deep Secret' (1976)
'Etoile de Hollande' (1919)
'Gloire de Hollande' (1918)
'Mme Louis Laperriere' (1951)
'Olde Romeo' (1993)
'Papa Meilland' (1963)

:-)

~Christopher

If you're looking for something that lasts FOREVER both on the bush and in a vase Veterans' Honor is the best. But you'll be very disappointed in the scent...because there isn't any, :(.

Thank you Christopher and Seil for those suggestions. I actually had veterans honor and Barcelona on the top of my list to order, but I had to look up all the other names on HMF and I had to add crimson glory, Avon, hearts desire, and velvet fragrance to the list. Yikes! Hmmmmm. Decisions, decisions. I'm hoping that some of the mail order nurseries will have a end of season sale and I will end up with a few of these roses. A girl can dream, right?

I received an unusual Buck rose, Mavourneen, from Heirloom Roses by mistake one year, and found it to be a fragrant interesting red. Its currant red with a slight white outline of white. Its a shrub rose about 4 ft tall but I keep it pruned. It blooms in clusters. It likes more shade than I have it in, but provides a great background for bright colors. I like it very much. Fragrant from 10 ft away. In Gallic its name means "My Darling" according to Dr.Buck.