Weeks, if not a few months.

I don't remember if you're the one who asked about using LB w/water the same as the enzymatic odor control/cleaners for pet urine but I am currently testing it on something in my house. I am pleased so far. I have a stubborn spot (from stubborn dogs) that I will keep treating.

Sunnyside1,

When Penny first posted about LB she provided many links. The first link was about a workshop on how to make LB. From that lecture, under the heading "The specific power of Lacto" comes this comment:

""Lacto" is the only microbe Carandang will mention by name, but it is only one of millions that can be collected and used. His instructions are characteristically simple: walk around the farm, find elements you want to reproduce, and collect the microbes that surround them. You could get the microbes from around a particularly robust tomato plant and spray that on next years crop. (These concoctions last for months, even years.)" (See link below)

I too have read that EM can store for anywhere from 90 days to 6 months. The exact amount of time is debatable. However, I am thinking as long as the brew is kept out of the sun, the liquid remains airtight (to a extent), and sugar is added before use the brew should be viable. Also, I have read that even when the brew has lost its' "microbe punch" it still is a very good organic nutrient source when used as a soil drench.

Since no one is giving an exact time limit on how long BIM will store I suppose one is on his or her own in this regard. I am going to use (Penny logic), one growing season from the time of reopening the container the BIM was stored in (no more than 90 days). My logic says if one is not going to use the brew by then why make it in the first place. If I had to store it, I would use the time provided by the "New Farm" article. Did I mention one of the bottles exploded upon opening in that article? I sure don't want the stuff sitting around long enough to build up that kind of "fermented" pressure.

Although not exact, I trust this helps in some wayÂ

Blutranes

Thank you, Pennymca and Blutranes, rj et. al -- I really do appreciate all the information you are collecting and sharing in your experiences making and using these various "brews." Made a note on the exploding bottle info to be very very careful ---
Sunny

Blutranes,

How are those spuds doing?

Penny

Penny asked:

"How are those spuds doing?"

They were fine when I went to bed last night. There had been a frost last month that did some damage to some of the plants; however, when I went out there this morning I knew it was going to be bad. I knew it would be so bad I went out prepared to take picture; take a look at frost at work.

Went out this morning, frost was covering everything.
{{gwi:283154}}

I waited a couple of hours to see what would happen to the potatoes. Not looking good, however, everything is still standing.
{{gwi:283155}}

Came back later today and found all the potatoes laying flat, leaves black, but the other plants (greens, onions, and cauliflower) were just fine.
{{gwi:283156}}

Now the question is weather the potatoes will recover or not. Last night it went down to 31°F for most of the night. There is nothing near as cold forecasted for the next 10 (ten) days, so I am hoping this was the worst it will get (but one never knows). I havent visited my cousin today, but his land is on much higher ground than mine is; when the last frost hit he didnt get hit at all. I do want to see how his plants are doing since he has been using BIM. As for mine, it may be time to plant some more and let these go

Blutranes

So sorry, Blutranes. Maybe they will recover .....
Sunny

Oh DARN, BT....I'm so sorry. We had the sub freezing temps here, too. My BIL has been bragging about his tomatoes setting flowers. He planted early last year and got destroyed by the frost so this year he planted in containers so he could bring them inside. Hope he remembered!

Penny,

Not a problem, I planted those to see how BIM would get them going. I have plenty of seed potatoes left, and there are plenty in the pantry for meals. I am glad to know that BIM will get the plants out the box and one their way.

I did get all those other plants from my cousin; he had left them sitting outside too long for his taste and felt they were too far-gone for planting. The brews put life back into them; I cant wait to take some of them back to his house after harvest. I told you we had to wait until after "Good Friday" to be on the safe side of things (from frost). Now that we have gotten all this rain the soil is good to go.

Learning how long one can store these brews will be next on the learning curve; I am getting my hands on as many different sizes of bottles and containers just in case. I found a lady (neighbor) who used to collect bottles, now she is into collecting stones/rocks; I have been getting some very nice jugs of all shapes and sizes, she wants incense and essence oils in return. I have plenty of those, so we are in trading heaven

Blutranes

OH, well!
I can relate to your story of last frost. I live and garden in zone 8 in georgia too. Also I have planted potatoes (starting in early march). My potatoes are about the same size of your LATE potatoes(sorry).
But I could not afford any experiment with my potatoes so I covered them with lots of maple leaves and some pine straws on top as weight. I left the cover in place for both Monday and Tuesday nights. They survived.
However I overlooked and forgot to cover a few beans and nastutiums; they were grilled. I was amazed how a 30F could do that?
I did not have to worry about ONION family, parsley and lettuce. They wouln't budge if it went down to teens.

Here is my question:
What is this LB thing, and how is it related to gardening??
Excuse my ignorance about the subject.
I know it well that yogurt whey has lactic(?) acid which is a preservative and it is beneficial in human digestiv system. But I do not know how it is related to plant life
and gardening.

Cyrus

Oh, Cyrus, Cyrus, Cyrus..

How could you have missed all our fun for the past two months???? ;-)

The link below is to the post that started it all back in February.

Other threads in this forum have "Bug Juice" in the title.

Short answer... The LB aids in the decomposition of organic matter enabling the other good microbes to be more easily used by the plants. You can mix LB with other BIM and bionutrients that you create from other types of plants or grains to further enhance the health of the soil and plants.

The link below has all sorts of other links to explore.

Have fun!

pennymca said:
The LB aids in the decomposition of organic matter...

... just only to a certain point.

LB ferment (decompose) carbohydrates producing LA(lactic acid). After some time the acidity increases to the point when it stop activity of LB (and other micobes either beneficial or pathogenic). At this point LB stop decomposition of organic matter at all.
The same could be said about Yeasts besides they produce alcohol instead of LA.

That is why both LB and Yeasts are used thousands years for storing food (preventing it from decomposition) .

Here is my question:
What is this LB thing, and how is it related to gardening??

It is very easy to understand what is LB by making simple home experiment.
Take a spoon of any kind of cereal grains you have in the kitchen. Fill any jar with water and put grains there. As time goes (2-3 days) water becomes cloudy. It is lacto acid made by LB. You may taste its not dangerous. After that the jar can stay for years without any changes in it. You may pour out whater from the jar leaving graines and fill it with whater again. And again after 2-3 days you will have lacto acid. You may repeat this process endlessly until all carbohidrates in garins will be eaten by LB.
You may use LA from LB for different purposes: cleaning teakettle from deposit, as addition to salads instead of vinegar, packing vegetables and so on. LA is acid.
In gardening LB may be used for composting kitchen scraps. But really its not composting. Its coservation of them, conservation of nutrients from decomposition. It is acidic stuff. Later in the garden conserved scraps will be a food for different inhabitantes of soil: worms, bacteria, fungus and others. They will eat it as time goes on and acidity in it leaches out or volatilizes.

Plain using of that LB acidic water for watering is dangerous for the plants and meaningless.

And of cause lactic acid is fine for skin problems. Cheap cosmetics .
Cleopatra loved the baths with the whey and as far as I know she was attractive enough to gain Julius Caesar ;)

{{gwi:283157}}

"Spraying diluted solution of lactic acid bacteria serum to the plant and soil helps plant growth and makes them more healthy. As it is applied to the soil or the leaves, these beneficial bacteria aid in the decomposition process, thus allowing more food to be available and assimilated by the plant."

Valerie, above is the basis for my statment re LB. It is a quote from the Gil Carandang paper..maybe taken too much out of context? Upon further re-reading I realized that the LB concept was introduced in that paper as a way to aid comoposting, like you said.

As for the cosmetics and sour milk baths, I had already been reading about the benefits and am trying to talk oldest dd into soaking her hands in kefir to treat a severe case of atopic dematitis. Maybe a facial is in order for me today!

P.S. Kefir is GREAT! I thought I was having fun making yogurt, this this is so much easier!

But, what the "whey"...I know that some things I sprayed my LB on are doing MUCH better this year than they have in the past. Maybe it is more rain, maybe just a few more "years" on the plants that they needed, maybe the LB, maybe all of the above.

pennymca,

I think spraying is good thing. Spraying of LB may be useful for treating pathogens. I want to try this year LB even against late blight on potato.
As for watering??? Lactic acid is an acid first of all. So, it can dissolve minerals in soil. The problem is that not those minerals the plant wants. And also a dose is under the question. It may be benefit for the plants and may be not. And what about acidity? It is a question of experience. Start with minimal dose.

How do you make Kefir?

I use "grains" that I got from someone on ebay...

{{gwi:283158}}

Mine aren't quite so big as the ones pictured but they do grow as they "feed" on the milk.

You place the grains in a jar, pour milk over them (2/3 jar full), and let sit at room temp until the whey starts to separate. (12-36 hours) Stir and drain and pour the liquid into another jar that can sit out for a "second" ferment or be put in fridge. I use pastuerized milk from the store but I'm betting most kefir makers use organic or fresh milk.

Kefir is supposed to contain more active live cultures of LB than yogurt and also has some extra bacterial goodies thrown in.

Great!

Pennymca said:

" It is a quote from the Gil Carandang paper..maybe taken too much out of context?"

No, you didnt take it out of context at all, but Valerie RU has. The purpose of LB is to control odors by digesting ammonia and to sterilize the soil from harmful ingredients found in the soil from poor farming/gardening practices. It too will foliar feed and/or contribute in root feeding of plants LB is used on. Carandang states plainly:

" This particular beneficial microorganism is popularly used in composting that specifically arrest foul odors associated with anaerobic decomposition. Lactic acid bacteria thrive and feed on the ammonia released in the decomposition normally associated with foul odors. So if you need to decompose or ferment wastes less foul odors, lactic acid bacteria is the specific bacteria to use. Its application in organic farming is enormous."

And:

" Spraying diluted solution of lactic acid bacteria serum to the plant and soil helps plant growth and makes them more healthy. As it is applied to the soil or the leaves, these beneficial bacteria aid in the decomposition process, thus allowing more food to be available and assimilated by the plant"

Still further:

" Lactic acid bacteria is also known to produce enzymes and natural antibiotics aiding effective digestion and has antibacterial properties, including control of salmonella and e. coli. To farmers, what are observed are the general health of the plants and animals, better nutrient assimilation, feed conversion and certain toxins eliminations." (See link below)

Now, what that has to do with what happens to grain in a glass of water, or a naked picture of some Egyptian is a "no hunting dog" to me. LB controls odors (ammonia), attacks and destroys salmonella and E. coli, works in conjunction with aerobic bacteria/fungi, and makes toxic soil healthy. One may want to omit all that pornography for another forum or a less polite society.

The question is "how long can LB be stored?" I too am not exactly sure and do await an exact answer to this, IMO, important question. Troll-ish behavior can, after a certain amount of time, start to resemble something else. Some are still awaiting a conclusion to this performance

Blutranes

From what I remember reading, I expect it to be good through this growing season at least. I have it in my fridge, a dark pantry at 50f would probably also be good. I have a 2ltr bottle full of it, I imagine I'll still use it for the compost pile after the growing season till it's gone and make another batch, next time w/ a rice wash from brown and mixture of rice for the rice wash.

2Blutranes

Blutranes, thank you very much for your efforts to make me more polite. I appreciate it!
Yes indeed, I never was too polite with any authority and authorities. Gil Carandang means nothing for me.

As for image of Cleopatra, I cited it as an example of that the whey is good for humans skin and thus may be suitable to the plants too or at least no harmful on the skin of the plants.
We also in Russia are not too polite to consider Egyptian sculpture as pornography. We consider it rather as an art. At least, at the entrance of one of our best museum - Pushkin Museum - in Moscow everybody see a giant sculpture of the Tsar David:
{{gwi:283159}}

We were barbarians at the begining of our history, you know...
So, forgive please, Blutranes, our barbarism!

Lets return back to Lacto Bacteria.
I understand your desire not to buy EM. But substitution of BIM and Bug Juice instead of EM is not correct. EM has one component which is essential for the benefit of others. This component is purple bacteria. One of the wonderful work she makes is a consumption of H2S. This is what BIM and Bug Juice will never do. H2S is a poison for the plants. Both BIM and Bug Juice has proteins in them. And more worth these proteins are animal proteins. Decomposition of proteins in soil gives H2S and H2S smell in your garden which is harmful for plants as well as for humans and unpleasable too. All that things are well known. That is why the EM-poetry of Teruo Higa was so inspiriting. But even this inspiration declines when the talk begins about the soil. If you so worship to authorities you may refer to Higas own words that even for the EM (nothing to say about BIM and Bug Juice) "the main limitation...is the problem of reproducibility and lack of consistent results."

And I insist that LB surves to preserve organic matter from decomposition in anaerobic compost. LB decomposes only some (not all) carbohidrates and lactic acid stops the activity of almost all microbes in compost. No any decomposition at all! How to prove it? Take a glass jar with water, put some grains there, wait 3 days. Put there a small piece of the meat. Label jar with the letter A. Than take glass jar with water only and put a piece of meat there also. Label it with the letter B. Compare then A and B after 2 weeks.

You ask: "what that has to do with what happens to grain in a glass of water?"
Because it happens the same what happens in traditional bokashi compost. One of the ingredient of bokashi is a rice husk. Bokashi is anaerobic compost. Rice husk produce lactic acid by LB. Lactic acid stops the decomposition of other protein/nitrogen rich compounds and keep them long time until they are needed. As a result, bokashi compost is so nutritious that attractes many insects and even small animals on the field and some of them may be harmful to plants. And it is so acidic also that its advisable not to put it close to steam. It is one of the limitation of bokashi.

Do you still want to pour out BIM and Bug Juice with blood meal under the rootes?
You can. But the smell wont be too polite.

I was not sure it would happen, but it appears my potatoes are making a comeback. I have been watering them with potato BIM, Bug Juice, and LB every other day since the frost to see what would happen. Well, they are re-sprouting is what is happening:

{{gwi:283160}}

I did use the LB made from bacteria taken from my surrounding forest, I followed the directions from my last link under the title: "Forest Beneficial Microorganisms". This was to insure I captured photosynthetic microbes in case I need to build EM in the future. I really am doing the happy dance about this, that last frost got a lot of folks and their plants. Too bad there is no way of knowing what difference using the brews played.

The time for planting has come; time to put the petal to the metal. With the potato rebound it is full speed ahead. Thanks to everyone for their concerns, they helped a lot

Blutranes

My potatos are coming along nicely also. I didn't do a control. I only have 3 plants all using the potato bim. I did the forest BIM sortof. I buried two panty hose full of cooked rice and dampened oat bran in my worm bin. I figure since it's full of local horse manure and local shredded leaves it should be pretty close.

I have a friend w/ some land so I think I'll ask him if I can bury some in the duff under trees soon and do another drench from that.

Ok, third time's the charm with this post... >:-[

Comeback, indeed! Blutranes, that is really great!

Speaking of other microbes, I was looking up another ingredient in EM, the "bacillus subtilis". Found an interesting story on its "discovery". Dont' know whether it is actually TRUE, but interesting nonetheless. (Note, if you're a little squeamish, wait until you've eaten to read this.)

Also interesting is the fact that you can't buy this in the US (duhhhh, FDA and all that...) but is widely used and available in Europe and parts of Asia.

Here's the wikipedia article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_subtilis

OH lordy! I didn't go backwards on that link about the BS Story until just now...and it may be nothing more than bs. Please forgive.

Why? Very interesting story!
I made BS 5 years ago. Is is very easy but takes some time. Take a handful of chopped hay and chopped straw in a tin. Add 1 litter of water and 1 teaspoon of chalk (to neutralize acidity). Boil it 5 minutes. Put in a warm dark place for 3 days. After 3 days there must be a thin film on the surface. It is BS. Pour out it to barrel with the water and hay. Put an air pump or aquarium bubbler there. After 2 days it may be used for the sprinkling of plants.
What is interesting, young leaves will have some days yellowish tone on the surface like hay or straw.

Penny,

What are you doing, looking up every microbe that makes up EM? What else are you finding? Is BS able to get into the food chain through making a brew?

I see what you mean about that site; talk about a giant commercial. I sure hope they didn't plant any "spyware" on my computer. So far it looks ok...

Blutranes

Blutranes,

Ha ha ha! No, I just tend to be a bit obsessive compulsive sometimes. :-)

Actually, since I've started making my own yogurt and kefir I've started paying more attention to "live cultures" and microbes.

Subsequently, when the soil food web came into my radar, I started noticing microbe "overlap". I was bouncing around the EM site the other day and realized they listed the ingredients, 2-3 of which I realized were in the yogurt/kefir, the other two unfamiliar. Hence, a little more net surfing while drinking my morning coffee. Voila, weird stories of camel dung and Nazis and BS!

I was also interested in trying to deduce whether the BS and the phototrophic microbe(s) in the EM had anything to do with the odor control aspects they advertise with EM. (I don't think they do) In other words, can something as simple as just using the whey from the yogurt/kefir or capturing LB from the air do the job on pet odors WITHOUT having to buy EM. Just trying to prove it to myself by process of elimination. I already know that your nose has proved it with the cabbage BIM, I've proved it with my tiny fish emulsion experiment and am still testing on my stubborn pet odors.

As for putting BS in a brew, I don't see why it wouldn't be just as effective as it is in EM, since they foliar feed/soil drench/etc with it in the EM.

So there you have "the rest of the story." And, before I retired I was a librarian, so I enjoy a little research now and then.

Valerie,

I was afraid that the home website might seem too radical/survivalist/sensationalist or something. I also couldn't find another reference to that story so I got worried that I hadn't researched it enough, though I did find references to some of the commercially prepared BS from Israel, France, etc in other places. Interesting that BS is available and is used as a simple, natural and seemingly powerful health aid and we can't get it here. Ahhh, the joys of government control. Not an unfamiliar concept, heh?

I had wondered about burying rice in my hay piles/bales to try to capture some BS. I wonder why the BS you made up caused yellowing on the leaves? That's interesting.

Off for my second cuppa...
Da svidanya

I don't know this for sure, but I've been told the main ingredient of Serenade (organic fungicide to replace daconil) is BS.

Bacillus subtilis is available in Serenade.....an organic fungicide. It seems to work great for fungal problems.

Thanks for the info! Time to throw the rice in the dirt and hay and try to grow my own.

Less than 8% of the actual microbe, the rest "inert ingredients" probably aka molasses and water (like EM)....

Penny said:

" Subsequently, when the soil food web came into my radar, I started noticing microbe "overlap". I was bouncing around the EM site the other day and realized they listed the ingredients, 2-3 of which I realized were in the yogurt/kefir, the other two unfamiliar. Hence, a little more net surfing while drinking my morning coffee. Voila, weird stories of camel dung and Nazis and BS!"

That is what got my attention when you first brought up BIM, it sounded like Bug Juice immediately to me. After all the uproar about yeast I went back and checked again; Dr Martin said:

" Vitamins: synthetic vitamins are sometimes added, but generally dried yeast is added as a food and vitamin source. Yeast contains the highest concentration of B vitamins of any known organism. Feeding yeast extract, as it is called, is a cheap way to provide the bacteria with pre-made vitamins. Bacteria can make most of their own vitamins, but this takes time and slows growth."

And then:

" Yeast: Yeast is a cheap source of B vitamins. It is also a source of cytokinins and protein. Mix two teaspoons of yeast, two teaspoons of sugar and one teaspoon of bread flour to 2 cups of warm water."

BIM and EM dont even call for yeast, yet they do make it during the fermenting process. However, the microbes consume the yeast as food; the yeast isnt allowed to live long enough to develop into something bad. That is how I found out about Zymogenic/Synthetic soil. Now here you come with this "BS" stuff! I like being on a team with all of you guys on my side.

As I said earlier, Carandang is a renegade telling all the trade secrets Dr. Higa is trying to make money from. Now we have (among others) "a librarian" on point like "a hound dog on a coons scent trail"; we might as well let the fat lady sing!

Folks around here are at me for compost and plant whiskey like never before. Somebody came by today while I wasnt home and left $40.00 inside the screen door. I still dont know who it was or what the money is for, yet. It would appear that this season is going to be one to remember; of course I hold you directly responsible Pennymca Zone 7bAL. I know, "It really is on topic"

Blutranes

"Now we have (among others) "a librarian" on point like "a hound dog on a coons scent trail"...

Bluetranes, I'm blushing over here....

In my best southern belle voice.."Why, that's just the nicest compliment I evah did get"....(waving my fan furiously in front of my face)

To be honest, if I would brew and dig and plant more than I surfed the net, I'd be way ahead of the game. I feel like a big ol' bamboo root, just gathering steam before I burst out with some real growth.

You see, I'm obsessive, compulsive and a little ADD, OH MY!

Nice one Valerie - I loved the Egyptian sculpture and also your response to the astonishing - to a European -prurience when faced with a piece of ancient art.