Care to share?

Sure, 7.5 ph
1.6 % Organic Matter
.6 lb/1000 sq ft Phosphorus
2.1 Potassium
46.8 Calcium
21 Magnesium

What do you think?

Please look again and say whether it says "phosphate" or "phosphorus," "potash" or "potassium." Phosphate contains phosphorus, but it is about half oxygen by weight.

Those are really low readings for P and K. You will need to fertilize regularly and can use a fertilizer with roughly a 1-1-1 ratio, such as 10-10-10. Does your soil have any clay content?

You can expect some iron deficiency symptoms with a pH that high. That is, newer leaves are pale between green leaves. Having less chlorophyll, they can't make fuel from sunlight as normal leaves do. I would apply 1/2 cup of sulfur per plant, scratched in under the mulch over the area you expect the plant to fill. It takes a season to work on the soil.

I typed straight from the report, phosphorus and potassium. I didn't have the particle size/textural analysis done but we do have clay. I am surprised at how low everything is and expected to need to raise the pH. My poor soil :(
Just had a thought! If my plants are anemic would that explain why just the mention of black spot makes them spot up and drop leaves? I'm trying to concentrate on the positive here. I think they are pretty now so with proper additives and more TLC they should knock my socks off! It would be wonderful if it helped with bs too.

This post was edited by Psk8er on Wed, May 22, 13 at 17:49

LOL, for a second I thought I was staring at my soil test. Now if only I find where I put that darn thing. Actually my results were similar to yours. That is why I will be tearing up each bed and adding more organic mater. I also picked up two different organic/natural fertilizer plus this seaweed stuff that was recommend to me. Hopefully, I'll see an improvement in the soil, a couple of years.

Psk8er,

While the high pH may be a persistent issue, it's not hard to add nutrients. There's no reason you can't have a great rose garden. When you open new beds or replant in holes, it would be a good idea to dig superphosphate in to a depth of 6-8 inches, because phosphorus does not move around much in the soil. You can build up the P and K quickly around extant plants just by applying cheap, fast acting 10-10-10 at the recommended rate of 2 oz per square yard every 4 weeks this season. If you can find 5-10-10, this can be applied at 4 oz. per square yard. Be sure to spread it rather than piling it around the stems. For this season, you should pull back the mulch and mix the fertilizer into the unconsolidated soil on top so it gets to work quickly. If you add 3-4 cups of coffee grounds per plant once this year, that will encourage earthworms to carry the phosphate down into the rooting zone.

Then by next year you should have normal levels of P and K in the upper topsoil. You can change to slower organic fertilizers, if you want, and just fertilize through the mulch.

I plan on getting started this weekend. Thanks for your help. mori1 if you don't mind would you tell me what organic additives you bought? Don't know if that is allowed but I'm kinda lost. When it is simply N-P-K I can handle that and plan on doing as suggested. It's the natural fertilizers that are confusing to me. Thanks

I highly recommend horse manure. I get it free from a local stable, and they even load it on my trailer for me. The stuff I get is about 50/50 horse manure/wood shavings. My roses love it.

Cementaryroses (Anita) from CA encouraged me when she wrote about a rosarian traveling in France and observed how roses are grown in a high soil pH, but very healthy. I don't spray whatsoever, just horse manure.

Jean Marion (Decobug) in Idaho has soil pH of 8. I asked her in HMF, and she informed me that she amended her soil with compost, no sulfur used. She grows the most beautiful roses, tons of blooms, for exhibition.

Jay-Jay in the Netherlands has his garden featured in HMF, he grows great roses with soil pH of 8. My garden is also listed in HMF under "Chicago IL 5a".

That's why I like my Romantica Sweet Promise Hybrid Tea, pic. taken today,, May 24, after 3 days of constant rain. It's an own-root, always healthy even in late fall. It hates sulfur (I tried already). My dozen plus Austin roses are just as clean as own-roots.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, May 24, 13 at 11:56

Beautiful photos, thanks. I am looking for a source of horse manure now for the organic matter deficiency. We had some pushed out into large piles but it has turned to dirt. That's great I know but seems like no mulch. What if I put a good layer of the manure dirt down and mulched over that with a thin layer of leaves and pine needles? Do you think that would work?
I have sulfur, Epsom salts and an ap fertilizer on the way. Couldn't buy the sulfur locally so I just ordered it all. I had some all purpose miracle grow so I gave them all a good dose of that last night to help until I get my order comes in. Will look into ordering gypsum today. Can't get that here either without buying online.

Whoa, did the soil test recommend epsom salts? Magnesium levels are already fairly high in comparison to calcium. Excessive Mg can cause problems.

I am puzzled as to how this soil has high pH with low Ca and K, and moderate Mg (unless I am making some mistake with the units). If mike_rivers is around, he should comment.

If only I could get my hands on some horse manure. The closest place that has it for free is 45 min away from me. There use to be a place a few miles away but haven't seen any posting at all this year. In the meantime, its composted cow manure and shredded leaves.

Psk8er, I'm using Maxicrop liquified seaweed with a fungicide when I spray for BS. I plan to use Foxfarm liquid plant food big bloom when it starts to warm up and the plants need water. I've barely, done any watering because the soil is still moist. When that runs out, I had plan on using Hollytone but Westlake Ace has a sale on Jobes organic fertilizer for $3 for a 4lbs bag. So I thought I would give it a try and see how well it works.

This post was edited by mori1 on Fri, May 24, 13 at 13:23

Yes, believe me I'm not about to wing it. I would have no idea where to start. Below is cut and paste from report. If you disagree with any of it I would like to know. Thanks

pH 7.5 Apply 1.1 lbs sulfur/100 sq ft
Organic Matter 1.6% Add 2" compost/peat moss & incorporate
Phosphorus 0.6 lbs/1000 sq ft Apply 1/4 lb/100 sq ft
Potassium 2.1 lbs/1000 sq ft Apply 1/4 lb/100 sq ft
Calcium 46.8 lbs/1000 sq ft Apply 1 lb gypsum/100 sq ft-See Comments CEC
= 5.1
Magnesium 2.1 lbs/1000 sq ft Apply 1/4 lb/100 sq ft

Later in the report it gives a list of products to correct each problem along with the amount needed for 100 sq ft. Here are suggestions for Magnesium

Deficiency Fertilizer % Product Weight or Cups or Tbsp

Magnesium Hi-Yield Magnesium sulfate 16% 1.5 lbs 2.50 40
Magnesium Sulfate Epsom Salts 10% 2.5 lbs 6.00 96
Sulfate of Potash - Magnesia Sul-Po-Mag (organic) 11% 2.5 lbs 5.00 87

This post was edited by Psk8er on Fri, May 24, 13 at 13:58

I agree with Michaelg on hold-off the magnesium. I already tested Epsom salt: dunk cut roses in a vase with Epsom salt, Radio Times went from heavenly scent to sewage. I told SteveinAustralia, and he also agreed the scent disappeared when he put Epsom salt on a rose.

The second time I put Epsom salt in William Shakespeare 2000 in a pot, the leaves turned pale immediately. The 3rd time I tested Epsom salt on a wilted-band rose, it went downhill. I tasted Epsom salt, it's quite salty. Salt on a rose bush is not a good idea.

Here's a quote from a soil-nutrient site: "One old timer story says you can tell how much magnesium there is in your soil by the thickness of the soil that sticks to your boots!" The stickier the clay, the higher the magnesium. My Chicagoland limestone clay is super-high in Mg.

Here's a site on calcium-magnesium ratio: "High mag soils cause potassium and calcium deficiency in plants. Having high magnesium and sodium causes the clay particles to disperse when wet and set like concrete when dry.

Manure on top is best, it has the bacteria plus alkaline pH to deter fungal germination. Pine needles is neutral in pH (my test, plus soil forum reports). Leaves are acidic ... I have a bed topped with leaves, and everything BS or mildew in there, including the weeds, except for Knock-outs. But pine needles is dry after a rain, versus sticky leaves that stay wet for a long time, great for fungal germination.

In my 12 years of alkaline soil, the first year using sulfur was a disaster ... then I resume it, on, and off - I don't see any benefits except for making hard clay more crumbly, best used SEVERAL MONTHS before planting, rather than putting sulfur on roots and burn them.

Azaleas and Rhododendrons are shallow-root, I killed 4 large bushes with sulfur. With the other 4, sulfur DID NOT make the leaves darker. What makes leaves dark is chelated iron and chelated manganese, MiracleGro fertilizer has it, but Schultz brand doesn't. Horse manure has chelated iron and all trace elements in chelated form.

My neighbor who put horse manure on top of his lawn has the most dark green lawn in 400 houses here. We all have pale lawn, no matter how much nitrogen used.

Warning about sulfur: I tripled the sulfur on Christopher Marlowe, that's the only rose that has aphids. When the soil pH is brought in acidic range, calcium and potassium deficiency get worse, resulting in softer tissue on plants, which attract insects to feast on.

I noticed thinner leaves on Romantica roses when I put sulfur ... they become more wilted in the heat. I stop that on French roses which are dark green anyway. I also notice that earthworms disappear when I put sulfur in the planting hole.

Last year one rose came down with RRD, that one got the most sulfur, and the most nitrogen. Too soft and too rapid growth attract aphids and mites.

I tested sulfate of potash and gypsum ... very happy with the result, no burns whatsoever. Sulfate of potash is low salt, gypsum is used to de-salt saline soil .... good stuff. Below is a link that shows pics. of magnesium deficiency, quite rare, except for very sandy soil.

EarthCo. can recommend anything, but I use only what's good for my plants. People in the Blueberry Forum report a good crop despite alkaline soil, if the soil is made fluffy with organic matter. When the soil is fluffy, cluster-roots can expand, secret acid, and extract nutrients through a process call "acid phosphatase". Plus mycorrhizae fungi is most effective when the soil is loamy and moist through organic matter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nutrients deficiencies in soil

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, May 24, 13 at 14:16

Thanks mori1. I have never seen liquified seaweed. I will watch for it.

Thank you too SHill. Your typing skills undoubtedly are far superior to mine! That's a lot of info :) Looks like salt has been voted down. I need to go over all of my sulfur info again. I should have posted what I was considering before I ordered. Thank you again

In your latest post you say the report said the soil had 2.1 lb Mg/1000 sq. ft., whereas higher up you said 21 lb. So if it's 2.1, magnesium is indeed low, and you would want to add epsom salts.

But that makes the high pH even more mysterious, unless there's a huge load of sodium.

You should follow the test report recommendations for sulfur. That will not harm your plants and will reduce iron deficiency problems. You should be able to find sulfur on most garden counters.

This post was edited by michaelg on Fri, May 24, 13 at 15:05

I am going to have to start wearing my peeps! I imagine that was confusing to everyone. I really am sorry. You are all trying to help me and I can't even give you the correct info. Cut and paste only for me from now on.

Yeah, like none of us ever dropped a decimal point. I was just glad to learn that neither I nor the soil test company was crazy (yet).

Hi Psk8er: I don't know if you have heavy clay like mine, or more loamy. With heavy clay like mine, granules fertilizer doesn't work, since only nitrogen moves with water (10 mobility), and potassium a 3 mobility (not much), phosphorus is a 1, immobile.

University of Colorado stated that above pH 7, bone meal and rock phosphate is useless. The pH has to be brought down for granular phosphorus to be released. Which means a HUGE amount of sulfur has to be used. Many U. of Extensions stated that it's easier to lime soil, than to sulfur soil.

I have VERY GOOD result with my fruit trees, cherry and peach - when I used acid fertilizer Lilly Miller NPK 10-5-4 ... tons of fruits ever since. Fruits trees have higher need of nitrogen, plus they have tough surface roots.

Putting acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-4 burnt my azaleas and rhododendrons since they are fragile surface roots, and sensitive to salt in fertilizer, esp. from high nitrogen salt.

Putting acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-4 on roses doesn't work, since I bury roses' roots 4 to 6" below ground for zone 5a. Nitrogen moves with water, so it can reach the root and make my roses giant. Phosphorus and potassium can't move that deep through heavy clay, and they BIND UP with the high magnesium and calcium in my limestone clay, resulting in a calcium deficiency besides phosphorus and potassium.

For alkaline clay, a high phosphorus is recommended. For sandy soil, a high nitrogen is used due to leaching. 15 minutes from me is Cantigny rose Park of 1,200 roses using high phosphorus with lots of blooms.

The other approach is Soluble Phosphorus fertilizer, used by Australian Agriculture ... after years of using solid phosphorus with no net gain.

Chicago Botanical Garden, with a pH of 7.4 loamy soil, uses a SOLUBLE fertilizer NPK 20-20-20 with trace elements on their 5,000 rose bushes. They recommend that 3 times a year for cold zone. Phosphorus and potassium can move down loamy soil better than clay.

Roses have such a high requirement for phosphorus and potassium in heavy clay, that it's more efficient as soluble fertilizer. Solid granules got stuck on top, or can't be dissolved with high pH. I'm going to order SOLUBLE bloom-pack from Kelp4Less, NPK of 2-20-20 with organic trace elements.

Using horse manure on top is the same principle of soluble fertilizing when rain water washes down the phosphorus, potassium, and trace elements.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, May 24, 13 at 19:43

I do have heavy clay. Looks like I had better get bigger buckets.

Hi Psk8er: I've just thought of a short-cut, which I learn from the Soil Forum .. no need for heavy buckets, nor ungodly amount of sulfur to bring down pH of heavy clay. It's easier to use sulfur on sandy or loamy soil. Using sulfur in clay risk burning roots, clay retains stuff too well.

1) Use a bamboo stick, barbecue stick, or pitch fork to poke holes around rose bushes' drip-line. Put a bit of the soluble powder, like low-salt NPK 2-20-20 in those holes. Clay is already high in salt, no need for nitrogen with higher salt index.

2) Since gypsum powder is harder to dissolve, mix in a bit of citric acid or sulfur, and put into the holes for calcium.

Do that before a heavy rain. pH of rain is 5.6, that will dissolve those SOLUBLE powder down to the root zone.

I find that plants being yellowish in clay are often from clay compaction, such that oxygen and nitrogen can't get through. Alkaline clay retains plenty of nitrogen, only if the roots can breathe! Air is composed of 78% nitrogen and 20% oxygen. That's why my neighbor who planted their azaleas in fluffy potting soil have very green leaves, zero acid nor nitrogen added. Rain water is acidic at 5.6, rain also carries nitrogen and oxygen, so her azaleas are always dark green.

We aerate our lawn every year with a machine that poke holes into the lawn, with the result of greener grass than my neighbor, who spent $$$ on professional fertilizing with high nitrogen & chelated iron.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, May 24, 13 at 20:17

Psk8er, just so you know, the Maxicrop liquified seaweed does not come with a fungicide. I also need to add sulfur to my soil especially for the azaleas will need to do research on that this week. Most of the ones on the store shelves are slowing acting which is what I want.

Thanks, Mori1, for bringing up azaleas ... I will have to fix the soil where they are. I found an organic fertilizer for acid-plants which won't burn them:

"Cottonseed meal is a byproduct of cotton manufacturing. As a fertilizer, it is somewhat acidic in reaction. Nutrient content varies slightly but generally contains 7 percent nitrogen, 3 percent phosphorus (P2O5), and 2 percent potash (K2O). Nutrients from cottonseed meal is readily available to plants in warm soils, and it poses little danger of burning. The nitrogen is slowly made available. Cottonseed meal is frequently used for fertilizing acid-loving plants such as azaleas, camellias, and rhododendrons."

Here is a link that might be useful: NC guide to fertilizers

Your horse manure has composted down, and it would be excellent for your roses. You could top it with more, fresher manure, leaves, wood chips, whatever is available to you.

I'm going to try pine fines this year to see If I can run off any nematodes I might still have hanging around.

Just to put things into perspective -- our basic pH is between 8.3 and 8.5. And that's approximately what our water sits at.

This area is all ancient seabed, so acquifers traveling through that pick up significant salinity.

On top of all of that, we are on a hillside, and all the topsoil there ever was, up here, is down on the vegetable fields of the Oxnard Plain.

The changes we've made to the soil became quite noticable when the street was bulldozed recently, in prep. for re-paving. It's pretty nasty stuff. But, over the years, we have put a great deal of soil and additives into the property, so you rarely now encounter our "native soil."

Jeri

We are on "The Ridge" in Florida, which was the first part of the state to rise out of the sea. Very alkaline sand is our "soil". My flower beds don't resemble the soil found in our pastures due to the improvement of the soil in them, all done with horse manure, kitty litter, and wood chips.

One nice thing about an old lot on a slope that stops sloping before the end of your lot, just means some shoveling and a wheel barrow to get your fine top soil back.

The bad thing is you have to push all that dirt back up the hill. (Three guesses what I did today :) and those roses better appreciate it)

Last week I realized the downside of having amended the garden beds so well. I could not dig a strong hole for a fence post. The sides just crumbled in happily. Ended up pulling up metal posts (also too easy) and pounding them extra deep to attach the picket fence posts to them good thing the fence only has to keep out chickens and future grandkids. And will have a thorny rose to remind people not to lean too hard on it.

I wish I had amended the big rose bed more before planting. But no idea where I would want to dump that hard clay, so guessing it will just be a good place to layer more horse manure and oak leaves for the foreseeable future.