I say if you need compost in two weeks - go to the store, they will have it in 2 weeks.

Yes, I agree, doris. Some of you live in very restricted circumstances---yardwise. I'm sympathetic to that. But a lot of people don't, and I'm talking to those people primarily. People who have HOA's watching their every move or people who live where neighbors think that every raccoon is rabid have got enough problems without me adding to them. Those people might consider indoor vermicomposting.

I see where you're coming from annpat, and I tend to take your approach because I was never timid about composting. I knew the world wasn't holding its breath because I might screw up the ratios. And the world wasn't holding its nose either indicating I wasn't too far off the mark despite the fact that no one walked me through the ceremonial tossing of the first banana.

There is merit in constant repetition, but I often think the search feature could be removed since it's used only slightly less frequently than the FAQ. But to be fair, I understand that there will never come a time when someone doesn't need to know that oak leaves are okay, straw in manure is a bonus, Stephen King's latest novel in paperback can actually disappear along with the T shirt from the 1963 Newport Folk Festival, and the East Overshoe Times Gazette with a color picture of the mayor on page one is probably printed with soy based ink....

It all makes for the rich tapestry that is composting. And that's just MHO. There's a wealth of valuable information here and it reaches people... one at a time. :-)

Amen, Sistah!

Composting shouldn't be an onerous task. But a working compost pile is a thing of beauty. Questions about the rules of achieving such a pile can be answered in a pretty basic, simple way - green/brown balance, good moisture and air content - and are healthy, valid questions. Questions such as, How and how often should I shred/mulchmow/rototill/leafblow the ingredients to smithereens so as to get finished compost in three weeks - those are the disturbing questions IMHO.

Well said annpat! ;) Some folks obsess over their composting to the point of measuring and weighing their greens and browns (how I hate those labels) on the kitchen scale. That's not composting, that OCD.

And if one chooses to live in an HOA or has a nosy nellie neighbor they might do better to find a friend who lives out of town and share the work and material gathering with them - then just bring home the bags of finished stuff. It would be nice if it was possible to educate the HOA or neighbor but sadly, we have to live in the real world.

Dave

I'm going to lobby my HOA to require everyone to have a compost pile. We will have refuse inspectors who will fine anyone that attempts to toss putriscibles into the garbage.

That's not composting, that OCD.
Hehe, I rather enjoyed that one.

And here I thought that I was the only heretic because I rail against the Composting "Inner Sanctum" who would have the uninitiated believe that composting is a cross between Zen and micro-biology, requiring special chants and the secret handshake to do it successfully. Too long have we been taught by the Illuminati that without the secret knowledge, one is doomed to failure.

It is a wonderful thing when we discover we can pry loose a totally natural process from the mystics who have laid claim to the "secrets." The secret is out: the natural process of once-living materials is to rot when exposed to moisture. It happens with or without a composter's intervention or the blessings and compost activators of the Inner Sanctum. The High Priests have once again been exposed for the frauds they are!

Reminds me of an old Star Trek episode...

Wayne

I discovered this message board in 2003. I was so amazed at all the information about composting I read through all the threads I felt were important to me until there were no more to read. I read the FAQ, finding even more information of value to use and felt grateful. Because of the depth of knowledge I didnÂt feel I was qualified to ask any questions, so I trusted another would ask my questions, and for the most part they were. I lurked in the background until the day I registered in 2005, I have been an active member ever since. I too am a member of other boards, but this is where I consider home, where I can be found.

This board is one of the most active boards on the Internet; without healthy soil not much of anything is going to grow, this is the place to come when starting out. This is why newer members are so important; they bring fresh desires with them. It is this desire that keeps this board rolling like an ocean at times. Yes, they ask the same questions, want to do things without paying their "dues", and insist on making sense out of nonsense. Yet, without this fresh influx of interest we would sit here looking like some kind of "clique" with nothing to say or share. This board would become as many of the other boards I am a member of, dead in everything but name. IMO, answering those fresh/old questions are worth it, if that keeps this board alive and churning. As members we inspire and motivate, we give encouragement, we donÂt accept defeat; yes you can make some compost, we donÂt care about anything but anotherÂs success. This is what makes this message board dynamic, not weather you pee in a pop and make the smoke come out.

IMO, we all are of value, both the one with the question, and the one willing to offer an answer. This is not a good place to step on someoneÂs toes, it can cost dearly regardless if the price can be paid. Yet, the air of respect, tolerance, patience, understanding, empathy, fellowship, and the true expression of welcome has carried this board many miles, with many more to go. True concern and sincerity cannot be faked, and when presented to someone new it makes for another member who will be here for life.

We lost a very valuable member recently, it may serve us all well to go back and review what was said when we found out that news. When finished, it may serve us all well to remember someone is coming to take his place; they will be someone new, pants on fire, ready to make humus in 30 days and just wants to make sure they have the right level of sticks on the bottom of the pile. Frustrating at times, yes; but who would we be without themÂ

Blutranes

Blutranes - That is just soooo perfect & eloquently on-target! Thanks!
All the Best, Tree

It All Leads Back To Compost, Blutranes. :)

Very well said. Think Gonefishin would be nodding and agreeing with you too.

All the best,
-Patrick

So the teabag that someone asked about recently---bag: brown, tea: green, and string: brown should be stored separately until the appropriate balance (three blades of grass) is reached? I'm not being disrespectful. I'm saying those of you who try to make this some precise science ought to be ashamed. You're discouraging more composters than you encourage. Nature makes compost every day with no regard to carbon to nitrogen ratios. I've been on this forum two years longer than you Blutranes and I don't like to see people intimidated by something that any bird turd and fallen leaf can do without any help from humans.

I like to see questions. I like to answer them. It's mentoring the next generation of gardeners. I like to get an answer when I ask a question. I'm an experienced gardener but there is always something new to learn. When I had to relocate after Katrina, and even now, if I am lonely I hate it when there is nothing to ask or answer.
FYI for others looking for friendly garden chit chat, the cottage gardening and winter sowing forums have been very friendly and encouraging too. Laurie

"I'm saying those of you who try to make this some precise science ought to be ashamed. You're discouraging more composters than you encourage."

I donÂt recall saying anything about the technicalities of composting in my post; it may be you misunderstand what I have said. Nor, have I disagreed with anything you have posted in this thread, nor will I, it serves no purpose. What I am saying is that if a member desires to know about composting tea bags, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, frosted flakes, or any other material the question deserves courteous consideration and a answer.

We both know composting is an art; it flows and grows as the member finds his or her own "groove" in the matter. There is no right way or wrong way to compost or garden, it is just a matter of letting one find that technique that works for them. The beauty of this board is the fact that each individual member is unique, valuable, and searching for their own identity in the process. To deny this right is contrary to the spirit of this board, and not something I have found evidence of in any of your posts. I trust your frustrations will be resolved quickly, and your value will continue to be expressed in your own unique wayÂ

Blutranes

IME, bready and cereally things tend to get eaten by something bigger than a microbe and way faster. Hence my fine and handsome rat population......

In any of my posts? That's harsh. :^)

I didn't start this post out of frustration about the questions people ask. It was the answers that bothered me. (And actually, I wasn't that frustrated; I thought I was being helpful.)

When someone asks if a teabag is a brown or a green and someone else responds, "The bag is a brown and the tea is a green," I felt that someone else (me) ought to point out that composting isn't quite as restrictive as that. And when people continually (this has gone on for years) rue how long it takes for an eggshell to break down, I felt it was important to counteract the posts recommending all the ways you could pulverize them, by bringing up the obvious---that you don't have to do a thing to an eggshell. I'm worried that newcomers to composting will actually think it's necessary to crush, grind, smash, hack, or shred their compost ingredients.

I've seen a lot of posts here in the past month written by discouraged composters. And I've often thought that people need to respond more often with the very wise---and enlightening---IALBTC.

annp, now it sounds like you're saying there are dumb questions/questioners. You're welcome to repeat over and over again, to people who ask what's the tea and what's the teabag and what's the string, that 'ialbtc' and don't worry so much. But you can't tell them not to ask the question.

Many people post here from many walks of life, circumstances, money, square footage (or inchage) to do their composting in, and it's all interesting. You live by the forest, so throw your stuff in the forest. I remember somebody who worked in an office who was trying to make compost in a styrofoam cup. That is also getting into the spirit of the thing. No different from long-ago Monte making compost in a swimming pool.

Following the basic rules of composting speeds up the process in a harmless and beneficial way compared to, as I said, bringing in the fossil fuel powered equipment. Not a thing wrong with wanting to know how.

Would you prefer a forum where every question gets an automated don't worry be :) response?

Annpat didn't say that any question was dumb;
she said several times that simpler *answers* could be more helpful & less bewildering to new composters.

If I asked about an eggshell & was advised to put it in a blender with 1 ounce of water or other liquid & turn the blender on puree for 1 minute & then mix thoroughly into a hot pile (you *do* have a thermometer in there, right?), & by the way, have you had your soil tested to be sure eggshell would actually help?, & if that were only *one* response & there were several...

I might give up & throw the eggshell in the trash & get my compost from the big box store.

I would agree that splitting hairs about teabags or eggshells is probably overwhelming and discouraging to a newbie, and it is in the general scope of things pretty meaningless. If a "pile" can be affected by a teabag it's probably not really a pile in any significant sense........

annp it looks like we crossposted.
Can't we assume that somebody who is asking the teabag/string/label question is happily splitting hairs? The question comes first, after all. To tell them not to split hairs then is proscriptive.

But if the 'poster seems to be losing sleep about a small thing that albtc, there seems to always be somebody here to step in and reassure them and that's good.

I don't think it's safe to assume that a new poster is splitting hairs to the extent that the response is extremely technical.

If the poster were that technically-inclined, he/she likely would know the answer already.

With the huge amount of conflicting & contradictory advice out there, with the limited space so many people have to devote to composting, & with the anxiety that "if I do it wrong it won't work"...

I still think the simplest response followed by an assurance that it'll work is the most productive & supportive option.

If the poster wants additional details, he/she can then say "thanks & what about whatever else is on my mind?"

I do think that sometimes science or a particular interpretation of the science gets in the way. The nifty thing about composting is that it somehow works out right even if it's done a little wrong. But when asked about a particular facet of composting, it's one thing to respond with declarative sentences seeming to proclaim a lock on The Truth, but quite another to see an answer prefaced with "in my experience", or "this is what has worked for me" or, well, you get my drift.

I don't think the power of "simple" can be overstated.

I've been both a worried beginner and an experienced hand at making compost. All of it has been made inside my Biostack bin, originally acquired from a town in which I formerly lived (at quite a discount!).

From the beginning (late '80s?), I have turned my pile on an "as able to" basis. Ideally, I turned it quarterly and sifted out the useable compost through a 1/2-inch screen staple-gunned to 1x2 boards screwed together in a frame. Ingredients that hadn't totally decomposed were simply returned to the heap.

During a particularly stressful period, I know that it was at least two YEARS between turnings. The pile just kept on doing its thing, while I tossed in this and that from the kitchen and threw in some water now and then.

I've never paid much attention to the green/brown balance, because I just put in what I had. Often, this was only kitchen waste, and I had a "very green" pile. I would still get useable compost during my turning/sifting. I watered the heap whenever I remembered to.

Recently, I made a connection with some local rabbit people and acquired (to me...) boatloads (well, four plastic bags' worth) of, um, "used" rabbit litter, hay, and poo. I also connected with a local coffee/tea place and randomly pick up big plastic bags of used coffee grounds. I mixed these (rabbit stuff and coffee grounds) into the Biostack and watered it. I then bought red wigglers and put half of them into the Biostack, and one quarter each into two experimental tubs in which I was prepared to have anaerobic compost.

All the worms died. MY WORMS! AIEEE! So I asked why?

Aha!

My compost was now mostly BROWN and needed watering much more often than it previously had, when it was mostly GREEN. I helped a girlfriend turn her Biostack a week ago. Her compost was mostly worm castings, it had been so long since it was turned, and she gave me a couple of quarts (!) of worms.

Now I have brown and green compost, happy live worms, and I'm watering the Biostack heap with a watering can every other day. I'm also compulsively checking to be sure that those worms are still wiggling.

So...if you have mostly greens, you'll get compost. If you have mostly browns, you'll get compost, but you need to water more often.

The "ideal" brown/green ratio? I've probably never achieved it in 20 years, but I've always had good compost.

In any of my posts? That's harsh. :^)

I didn't start this post out of frustration about the questions people ask. It was the answers that bothered me. (And actually, I wasn't that frustrated; I thought I was being helpful.)

When someone asks if a teabag is a brown or a green and someone else responds, "The bag is a brown and the tea is a green," I felt that someone else (me) ought to point out that composting isn't quite as restrictive as that. And when people continually (this has gone on for years) rue how long it takes for an eggshell to break down, I felt it was important to counteract the posts recommending all the ways you could pulverize them, by bringing up the obvious---that you don't have to do a thing to an eggshell. I'm worried that newcomers to composting will actually think it's necessary to crush, grind, smash, hack, or shred their compost ingredients.

I've seen a lot of posts here in the past month written by discouraged composters. And I've often thought that people need to respond more often with the very wise---and enlightening---IALBTC.

Oh how humiliating! How could I have posted a potentially offensive post twice in one thread?

For the record, the tea bags aren't a brown anymore cuz now the dang things are made of PLASTIC.

tj

Well, I'm with you annpat. I think that any answer to a newbie's concerns should start with the assurance that "compost will happen with or without you, so don't worry." Then, if you want, go into the technical jargon about optimal carbon-nitrogen ratios, a discussion of life-cycles of bacteria, actinomycetes, protozoa, and fungi or to refer the new gardener to the scientific paper on "Compost Maturity Effects on Nitrogen and Carbon Mineralization and Plant Growth."

Better they are assured up front that none of what follows is critical to organic matter doing what it does naturally: that is rotting.

If this was the "Speed Composting" forum, then I would be worried about "stepping on any one's toes." But it's not and I'm not.

Wayne

Thank you, Wayne.
When I wanted to start composting I was scared to do it wrong. I obssessed about green & brown. I did not know about what I was doing and I was very intimidated. Your kind words would have been perfect for me. We new-B's just want reassurance. All of the great folks here at the Compost Forum helped educate me and I thank you all!!! Now this forum is my favorite place. I check it first every day.
BTW My first attempt was mostly grass in a trashcan with holes (& accelerator). It got real hot,real fast then stunk to high heaven! I had worried about a smell & I got one.

IALBTC is the most reassuring word not in the dictionary.

Connie, still learning

"If this was the "Speed Composting" forum,..."

Wayne, that's brilliant! Can we amend your new forum name just slightly? I'd suggest "Speed Composting & Gardening With Peat Moss".

It would certainly lighten the traffic around here, but increase the S/N ratio considerably.

All the best,
-Patrick
(slowhand composter)

Composting is an art??

Well. Who knew?

All this time I thought it was my religion.

:)

I have to object, again. Jeez you people are taking up a lot of my time! To say we should start our replies with a reassuring 'Compost Happens', and then go, only if necessary, into technical jargon, belittles this forum and just about everybody who comes here, not to mention the composting process itself. What this forum is mostly about is the middle ground, the things we can learn in order to get the process moving along without causing offence to neighbours, attracting pests etc. Which is not speed composting - speed composting is rototilling your pile, shredding your leaves, etc - which I've rarely seen anybody but myself object to.

The people I admire most here are those who can explain in a concise elegant reassuring way the REALLY PRETTY SIMPLE rules of making compost, which are what most newcomers want to know, after all.

Cold pile, worms. Turn, or don't turn. Take a nap.

Pile up brown and green
IALBTC
Relax; hammock calls

True, and I'm all for slow/cold composting. But it is a very good idea to cover the top with straw or torn newspaper or other, dare I say it, 'brown' material. See what I mean? Too much information?

Maybe the confusion lies in people thinking there are only two options: hot fast healthy pile or cold dead smelly pile. Maybe this illusion is what needs to be corrected.

Now I'm going outside to burn off that extra cup of strong tea.

I am new to this. I read the FAQ page, I read posts here, both new and old, and asked questions. I was very intimidated by the experience of everyone. Then I started asking questions. I became obsessed over greens/browns; too much/too little of a pile; moisture and turning. I was told to relax, it would be fine. That was not the answer I was looking for. I was looking for someone to give me an answer to my question. So I stopped posting.

I started my pile, and am doing what works for me. Right? Wrong? I don't know. I check it daily and turn it, but I may not continue that way. It works for me now, but who knows about tomorrow. I have decided it will eventually break down, so whatever happens, happens. I still have questions, and will continue to post them.

I enjoy the basic answers that are given to people who post. The technical ones are just too technical. I have bought books on the subject, but they don't answer all my questions like you guys do.

I'm still learning and will always continue to learn, no matter what. We all don't know everything, and that is what makes this site work. Thanks again to all who have been composters/gardeners and have been around.

annapat: I see what you are saying, and I agree that sometimes answers are a bit overly scientific for the beginner. But remember that this is a public forum, open to all, so it is bound to attract a diverse following. We all have varying backgrounds, lifestyles, financial means... so to keep it open and enjoyable for all, we have to be accepting of all. If you want to offer your own advice like "throw it in a pile and it will rot", good for you! You go for it. I often do that myself.

Sometimes, I just ignore and skip some posts. If too controversial, if some are rude, etc, I just go away from that post, skip over and ignore. Though I have been composting for years, I still enjoy this forum and learn a lot here. I am grateful to those people for helping me.

I am not criticizing you here, I do agree with what you said. But this IS going to happen on any open public forum.
Another point, which is often made here, that others can easily feel offended or insulted by comments since they can't see your smile, catch your wink, hear the inflection in your voice, or see you flip them the bird. Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, others' perception of what you say depends on how he sees and interprets your written words.

Blutranes, your comments above are very nice. You would make and eloquent speaker, or perhaps are an eloquent speaker. I would have emailed you but you don't offer one in your profile.

I do hope I haven't offended anyone, didn't mean to.

Karen

Wow! I missed alot while I was out in the garden this week! lol

This past year, I have turned into a compost nut knowing that I would not be able to afford buying ingredients to amend my garden.

I asked lots of newbie questions and got a great variety of answers. There were those that were supportive and those with lots of suggestions. There were also replies that were too scientific for my understanding.

There is a wealth of information and those willing to share information are so appreciated.

IMHO (I finally figured out what that means! lol) I think that newbies are convinced that there is a secret to making compost happen. I was convinced that there had to be many important details to making the process happen. I was eager to learn and read everything I possibly could...while waiting for my pile to rot....because I had nothing better to do while watching it snow! :)

After reading this post and others, I know that it will all happen with or without me. I can do things to make it happen better or faster but it's not mandatory.

I really liked the compost in a bucket comment! I got a compost "bin" from PennState. It's a black super deluxe garbage can with vents. I was all excited when my pile settled and I added more thru the winter. I had my mix of greens and browns (as advised) and was just waiting for wonderful compost this spring. Well, all the pile did was "settle". It was too hard to try to mix or turn the pile. I threw it all into the lasagna anyway.

I'm ready to build a real honest to goodness bin in the yard! If composting is an artform...well, I'll be a compost artist!! lol and keep reading all of those tips, whether informative, suggestions, technical, humorous or otherwise.

Thanks everyone for conversation!! LC Grace

I'm starting to realize that people probably do have less space than I and maybe do pass compost up if the answer to the green/brown question is wrong. I have enough space, so if it rots, it goes in the compost bin.

My mother who never grew so much as a petunia and never in her life touched a spoonful of compost, nevertheless continued to manage her household refuse the way my father taught her, and after he died, and after my brother and I moved away from home, she continued to make some of the nicest compost I've ever seen---by dumping her refuse over the bank in the back yard to land in a pile that she never laid eyes on.

Paul, I've never felt that that smokin' hot pile was especially healthy. If you think about it, everything in there bigger than a microbe and even most of them are dead. The cold "dead" pile is literally crawling with life and diversity.

You are right that there is an in-between; occasionally one of my piles will kick mildly after I've added a bunch of green stuff all at oncet and the worms and other small critters retreat to the bottom and wait it out.

annpat- This is a great thread! Thank you for starting it!
In your first post I especially liked this one "whether the answer is green or brown, you're still going to be wanting to put it in the compost."
All of the posts are rich with information. I read that there are/were other newbie's (like me) that are too afraid to ask (Thanks, blutranes), that there's no secret (Thanks, LC Grace), that there are 2 options besides cold-bad, hot-good (Thanks, paulns) and that if I do it "wrong" it will still work (Thanks, sylviatexas) plus lots of other great stuff. Maybe this great stuff could be put in the FAQ as sort of a "here's the secret" answer for the scaredy cats like me (who NOW knows that there is no secret) and to put IALBTC in context.
The diversity of experience and opinions and knowledge in this forum are the best. The funny and silly posts keep all this wonderful information from being too heavy. I hope that I have not offended anyone. Thank you all.
Connie :)

Well, you didn't offend me, dear. :^)

OK, What's IALBTC??? It's killing me not knowing!! lol

It All Leads Back To Compost

(Eventually :) )

>It All Leads Back To Compost
>(Eventually :) )

Actually, doesn't it all lead back to soil?

Compost isn't the end of the process. Soil is.

Wayne

Soil is not compost, compost is not soil.

Compost becomes the organic matter portion of soil.

Soil consists of air, water, organic matter, sand, silt and clay.

Thanks! Makes sense now!

I maintain that compost is only an intermediate stage for the organic matter in the process which leads back to soil. What we gardeners see as "finished" compost is what soil microbes see as merely the raw material to produce humus. (Actually the little buggers see it as lunch, but what's left over is humus.)

Chemically stable humus, which is organic matter that has reached a point where it can not be further decomposed, is one of the key components of soil. Soil containing a lot of undecomposed compost is just that, soil containing a lot of undecomposed compost. When "humification" is complete, when the compost has finished the process that we gardeners started with coffee grounds, grass clippings and leaves and then entrusted to the soil microbes to complete, then it is all soil.

The miniscule amount of actual humus relative to the large amount of organic matter, compost if you will, required to produce humus is why it takes Ma Nature thousands of years to produce perhaps an inch of soil

Hence, I still believe "It All Leads Back To Soil."

And well it should, in my opinion. Compost feeds the soil, soil feeds the world.

Wayne

"Chastened Blender Girl" here..with my second post. Shouldn't the acronym be 'WALBTC'? i.e... WE all lead back to compost?
Better that than Soylent Green.
p.s. I am just heaping and turning. Things are working well. Wish the town would let me have a couple of laying hens though.

Chemically stable humus, which is organic matter that has reached a point where it can not be further decomposed, is one of the key components of soil.

started with coffee grounds, grass clippings and leaves and then entrusted to the soil microbes to complete, then it is all soil.

Contradictory statements. ;) It can't be soil and one of the key components of soil at the same time.

Actually it is all semantics and depends on the definition of "soil" one uses. Normally defined as containing mineral and crystal components as well as "air, water, sand, silt and clay" as joe said which are NOT found in compost or even humus...unless added to it by the gardener.

For clarification purposes most find it best to make a bit, just a bit, of a distinction between compost and soil (aka dirt).

Dave