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troman1

Kohler Command 14HP Problems

17 years ago

Hello,

Got some problems here.

It's a Kohler CV14 on an old Simplicity Regent.

Hard start, lack of power, occasional black smoke, a consistent backfire on every shutdown.

The plug fouls up constantly and when it won't start, a new gapped plug will kick it right over. Then it will run fine for a couple hours and start again with some black smoke and rough running under load.

Also just noticed that the plug wire was coming loose at the boot and I guess I should replace it instead of repair it?

Is this rings, carb adjustment, both, neither? LOL

I got it partially apart and any suggestions would be mightily appreciated. I'm handy enough to fool around with it myself and can haul it to a shop if it gets outta control.

Thanks a lot for any and all help,

Tony

Comments (12)

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Dunno if they're still around for the cv14 series, but might try kohler for a pdf service manual.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    ***"The plug fouls up constantly"***
    Is it fouling with a soft, powdery coat of "soot"? Or is it fouling with an oily, gummy, shiny black liquid that does not "dry" after being out of the cylinder for a few minutes? The "black smoke" definitely points to either "too much fuel" or "not enough air". Too much fuel might be caused by a defective float in the carb bowl (allowing the fuel level to climb too high and thus deliver too much fuel to the intake). Too little air can be caused by a clogged air filter or other restriction to the air intake system. A spark plug that is coated with dry, black soot indicates a very rich fuel mixture, but not so rich that the plug is "getting wet" from the fuel. A plug that comes out black and wet, but quickly dries to a flat black color indicates that there is far too much fuel in the mixture (this is rare because there is a "fine line" between being "this rich" .........and being too rich to run. In fact, most times when you find the plug wet and black (but it dries out after a few minutes in the open), the engine was not actually even "running", but only "cranking over" without running. If the plug comes out wet, black, shiny, and sticky. You have excess fuel with oil consumption, or you have very low compression with oil consumption. But, oil consumption usually reveals itself by causing blue smoke in the exhaust. My bet is on the carb float or the needle valve and seat being defective or stuck open.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Crimp the plug wire terminal a bit tighter. ANy signs of fuel in the oil? Hard start could be as simple a choke adjustment. Maybe the choke is also sticking. Does it use any oil?

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    troman 1, IF you are still following the thread you opened, did you (or someone else) by "chance"..... fill the fuel tank with KEROSENE? Click the link below to see why I ask.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Kero-mel

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    No kerosene in the tank. LOL. We don't even have any around and wifey doesns't go near the shed, so no chance of 2-cycle gas in the tank either.

    The plugs are fouled with heavy soot and DO dry after a while. I'll check the oil for signs of fuel but I think the culprit is the carb because it WILL run fine for a short while after a new plug is installed. If it was burning oil I'd think I'd get a consistent black smoke?

    I'll look for a rebuild kit in the meantime I suppose...

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I had CV1 this spring that had a broken choke "wizard" -which I think is really called a self relieving choke or close to that. It is basically a choke shaft w/ a spring loaded top- not to be confused w/ the standard return spring on the regular shaft. Just remove the airbox to see what style you have. If the top moves separate from the shaft- that is what you have. When these break, the choke flops shut at will and enriches the mix.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    ***"If it was burning oil I'd think I'd get a consistent black smoke?"***
    No. Gasoline overfuel (or excessively rich) causes black smoke because of the very "complex" way gasoline burns, or "combusts" in the combustion chamber, because of the "complex chemical make up", of gasoline. Gasoline, Diesel "fuel oil", and engine lube oil, are all in the family of chemical compounds we call Hydrocarbons. Hydro for Hydrogen and carbon for Carbon. Hydrocarbon compounds are made by combining "elemental Hydrogen" and "elemental Carbon" together. Because hydrogen and carbon can "link up" in very complex combinations (compounds), these combinations are called "chains". How many atoms of each element, and the varying ways they alternate and hook up determines the "properties" of the final compound. Some of the resulting combinations are very "stable" and DO NOT want to evaporate (or even "melt") easily. Other combinations will "flash" at low temperatures and remain "a thin liquid" at extremely low temperatures. One thing all hydrocarbon compounds share is "combustibility". The ability to combine with oxygen (or "burn"). Some hydrocarbons are eager to combust and only need to get near a "molecule" of oxygen and they just "throw open their arms" to the oxygen (very "promiscuous"). Other compounds are so reluctant to "mess around" with oxygen that they must first be heated to a high temperature before they'll have anything to do with any oxygen molecules (or oxygen atoms). You can draw your own analogies there, but suffice it to say, these compounds are very "chaste". Ok, lets use this in a practical way now. Starting with "how come "burning oil" makes BLUE smoke. The short "answer" is: Because the oil "ain't actually burning". Some portion of the oil (in an engine that is "consuming oil") does actually burn, but the majority of THOSE hydrocarbon molecules are only "vaporized" by the heat of the combustion chamber environs. The hydrocarbon compounds that make good "lubes", are some of those "chaste", or stable ones that don't enjoy "a good combustion". The color of lube oil "vapor" in an exhaust plume is similar to to what you would see if you poured some oil on a hot exhaust manifold. Starting a Diesel engine in frigid temps will result in the following observances in the exhaust plume: First, you will see the fuel oil "vapor plume" as a white or blue/white color, because the initial heat of compression, is only hot enough to vaporize a portion of the Diesel fuel oil, but not hot enough to "ignite" (flashpoint temperature) the fuel. The next color change will be the addition of black as the combustion chamber temperature begins to reach "ignition" flashpoint. But, even though ignition has been achieved, the temperatures in the combustion chamber have not risen enough to support "complete ignition and combustion" of all the available hydrocarbon molecules. This "incomplete combustion" means that some of the hydrocarbon chains are combusting "partially" or incompletely. In this stage, some of the HYDROGEN atoms break out of the compound and unite with oxygen atoms. Some of the CARBON atoms get liberated and quickly "recombine" to form both "new hydrocarbons" and "plain carbon compounds" (soot.....black). It is the resulting carbon and new carbon compounds that give the black color to the plume. This black color only last briefly in this scenario, because the temperatures inside the engine rise rapidly now, and the combustion of the fuel is near enough to complete, that the exhaust plume will become almost clear in a "good engine". But that was in a Diesel engine having combustion chamber compression pressures of more than 500 PSI. Fuel oil can be processed (combusted) very well under those conditions, but engine lube oil would require even a greater magnitude of pressures and temperatures to "burn clean". As a result, a worn out Diesel engine throws out "blue oil smoke" too (though some of that is actually "uncombusted fuel" too, when the engine is in bad condition!). In a gasoline fueled engine, the gas is highly volatile (evaporates readily). Highly volatile compounds are also "highly combustible", and will therefore "burn" in the lower compression environs of a "gasoline engine" (though not without a well timed spark to "incite ignition and propagation"). Gasoline is a complex blend of different "complex hydrocarbons". The more volatile compounds are very eager to burn and create a fast moving flame front, or "propagation wave" that moves through the combustion chamber from the spark plug "spark gap" when the plug "fires". This combustion process is not a "homogeneous" or "simultaneous" process. The highly volatiles burn and consume oxygen first, followed by the "lesser volatile compounds" as the temperatures rise (remember it takes some heat before some of these "chaste" compounds will join in). The least volatile compounds (both of the "original hydrocarbons", the "new hydrocarbons", and the resultant carbon compounds) are faced with a problem. Most of the good looking oxygen atoms have already paired up with the more promiscuous hydrogen atoms and early carbon atoms, so there "are not enough" oxygen atoms around for everybody to find a partner. Not "everybody" will locate an oxygen partner and there will be "some wallflowers" at the end. If you make the fuel/air mix too rich with fuel, there will be even more leftover wallflowers "after the dance". These "wallflowers" end up going out the exhaust in various quantities (depending on specific criteria of fuel, air, spark, temperatures, compression, and a few etceteras). It is the carbon compound "wallflowers" (soot) that give the exhaust its black color when too much fuel is present. Lube oil, (in the same analogy) does not get heated up enough to burn, but does get hot enough to vaporize and so lends the characteristic "blue oil smoke" color to the exhaust. A term that has come up in recent years (in technical speak) is "stoichiometric combustion". That term essentially means that there are "just enough" molecules (atoms) of Oxygen to combine with the Hydrogen and Carbon atoms in the hydrocarbon fuel during combustion so that there are no atoms of any of the "original" elements remaining after combustion stops. As far as one can see into the "near future" stoichiometric combustion is unlikely to be attained in commercially available power plants (engines I mean).
    CLASS, DISMISSED! PS, check the "choke wizard" per tomplum's suggestion.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Slightly off topic, but I just want to thank Mownie for taking the time he does to add seriously in depth explanations related to many things that come up here. I have learned a lot from them.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    mbs198, thanks for the kind words. I guess it's just my nature to run my mouth. I've done lots of things in my lifetime, learned a lot from "old timers" who were willing to share with a "youngster smitten with gasoline fever". "Now I are getting to be a ole timer" myself. I think it's fair to say I enjoy passing things on to anyone who wants to learn. I didn't learn "all I know" (and I sure don't "know it all"), in a day, but I try to learn something every day. I also try to help the "youngsters" coming into the trade at my job, every day. In them, I sometimes catch a glimpse of my "youngster self", and wonder how the "old timers" ever "put up with me". I would like to say to all the people who helped me throughout my career.....THANK YOU (wherever you are).

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "the choke flops shut at will and enriches the mix."

    Good idea, and you need to do something about that spark plug wire, could be part of your problem.

    AND you need to do something about those hydrocarbons before "Big Al" gets a hold of you. (grin)

    Walt Conner

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    WHAT WILL CAUSE GAS IN THE OIL

  • 9 years ago

    I have a Kohler command Cv14 and it starts up but won't stay on unless I leave the choke on. Even with the choke fully on it still shuts off as soon as I start cutting grass, as if it's too much work for the engine. I changed the oil and oil filter, spark plug and air filter. Didn't change the fuel filter because gas seems to flow pretty good passed the filter. Not sure what to do

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