As you thought all compost is organic and labeling compost as "organic compost" is an oxymoron, "pointedly foolish" although it also refers to contradictory terms, ie "cruel kindness".

So what all compost is made from "organic" stuff. We don't know what they mean and we are perhaps jumping to a conclusion. If they can certify that the base materials are organically grown e.g. no chemicals used, then perhaps they mean that. As "organically grown" is used in the OP perhaps that is what they intend. If the farm is "certified organic" they have met some standards and they might have a valid claim. Maybe the name sucks, but the intent might be honorable. People pay extra for "organically grown" labelled food stuffs all the time.

Lloyd

Three dollars a cubic foot comes out to $81 a cubic yard, thats about the most expensive bulk compost I ever heard of, although some boutique bagged compost might cost that much. I just bought 12 cubic yards of sawdust/horse manure/straw compost for $10 a cubic yard, including delivery to my driveway. Seems like the word organic is license to steal.

Not really, becoming certified organic takes time if nothing else. IIRC the time for pesticides and such to leach off so you can become certified organic is like 3 years. Then theres protecting yourself from pesticides/herbicides sprayed by neighbors etc.
Sure its expensive but the idea behind organic produce (and now compost I suppose) is that you limit your intake of potentially damaging chemicals.
Organic compost would be compost made with components that are themselves organic, that is without extra chemicals.

But would you SEE a difference?

BTW, I paid $13 for a pickup truck load of compost in my area...

I dont know about this one Paul NS, its kind of like cutting off my own nose. I will sell a 5-gallon bucket of compost for $4.00, but my compost is very well cured. IMO, using all organic material would call for a higher price than someone who is making compost from material gathered off the street. That being said, I wouldnÂt buy compost from the person, but I know how to make my own. Also keeping in mind we are talking about compost, not (so called) topsoil; however the water and air used in making the compost is not "certified organic" either.

Again, I am not one to talk, so I will go with Lloyd on this ride and agree the person has a right to ask a price he/she feels is justified for the work. I would still argue the price based on the fact that the person uses wood chips in the blend. It makes me glad to know that I can make my own, and when I am finished with the compost it will be "certified organic" in the "Blutranes Organic Certification Manuel" regardless of weather people buy it or notÂ

Blutranes

$3/cf is a lot. Unless there is something magic happening, or its production is so intensively managed, or it's vermicompost (in which case- that's a steal), or there are significant other additives... I don't see that it's worth it.

It may make folks feel good to know that there were no chems in the starting ingredients (that were destroyed by composting anyway). If they want to pay for that luxury- then it's their right and that's fine. The quality of the end product, IMO, will be the same.

If the end product is thoroughly composted and well finished, it makes absolutely no difference what the original ingredients were, certified organic or not. The entire point of the composting process is to breakdown organic (meaning once living or the byproducts of living organisms) ingredients into their elemental forms. The activities of the microorganisms and the heat generated by their activities effectively neutralizes any non-organic or chemical additives so that the output is as essentially as organic as if it were created from all certified organic materials to begin with. That's why compost and its associated microherd is used to remediate toxic conditions. There are one or two very rare exceptions to this, but their impact has been severely limited.

It sounds like a well-intentioned but effective money-maker, appealing to those that attach a cache to anything given the term "organic" but who lack an understanding of just what compost is. What they offer is no better or no worse than any well-made, thoroughly composted material irregardless of source.

If it looks the same it must be the same? I think not. A free range egg versus a factory egg, a garden grown tomato versus a greenhouse tomato, the list is endless. Most people wouldn't know a good compost from a pile of manure but there are those that can touch, see and smell a difference although they would be in the minority. I have people purchasing my compost at $2.50 for a 20 liter pail and they appreciate it. Others would rather run out to a local farmer and pick up a truck load of crap. To each his own I'm thinking. I know what I put into my compost, I know what temperatures it got and I keep records of how long it "cures". I haven't had any tested for nutrients yet but that might happen in the future.

There are too many unknowns and too much specualtion for any one of us to fairly pass judgement yet we do so. Value, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'd probably pay $3/cu foot for Bill P.'s compost but I wouldn't buy a load of manure that I didn't know was in it for any price. Others would, so be it.

Lloyd

Lloyd- your right in disputing that "compost is compost", but whether the leaves, grass, etc. that went into the starting material is "certified organic" or whatever, doesn't really impact the quality that much (IMO).

Bill P makes compost that I'd consider putting in my cereal (from the look of it... ooohhh)- but that's not from cert organic starting material either.

Good stuff commands a higher price. Buying small amounts costs more per volume to be sure. I guess that many of us here use yards of the stuff, which would make that cost prohibitive- if we had a few containers and needed 5 gallons then the cost would make sense.

I must needs see a photo of Bill P's compost - could you link me to it or tell me where 'tis?

Thanks!

Man, y'all gonna make me feel like some kind of celebrity here! ":^). I must be sitting on a goldmine here. Thanks Lloyd and Pablo.

I can {{gwi:292860}} you up Penserosa. This is probably not the best picture that I have of my compost pile, it is the one that I found first. And here is {{gwi:56492}}.

I think that it is technique, technique, technique, rather than location, location, location. I do certainly feel blessed that I evolved to the particular methods that I use, but in the long run it is just Mother Nature doing her thing that she does best, with perhaps a little help from me.

There is just so much that I do not know, but while not trying to stay "organic", I do think that a good, hot compost pile helps kill pathogens, neutralize things and helps reduce things to a good point in their way along the path back into the food chain.

I was intrigued with the study that says basically that the elements are sequestered in the compost to be released as needed for the right microherd to consume upon demand to provide the right plant food that each individual plant needs when the time comes. While I avoid oils, meat etc. I see no problems with Pablo's occasional squirrel being recycled. ":^) I do like the diversity of what I have been able to get for free to go into my compost, but since our local supermarket, under new management, locked off their dumpsters, that will change some, but I think that it will still be good.
Bill P.

FYI, there is an herbicide used by some for lawn care that does NOT break down during hot composting. That is why so many of us avoid other people's bagged grass clippings although we take their bagged leaves in the fall. So if you bought organic compost, you would be confident they didn't have that in there.

I am also dubious of free public compost piles, although I haven't actually found any yet, and if I did maybe I would be tempted. :-) I wouldn't buy compost, I don't shop much for my garden.

Marcia

Which herbicide it that Marcia ? I think that most are deactivated upon contact with the earth and exposure to the air and sun, pretty quickly.

Some municipalities, in efforts of "Going Green" have invested a lot of taxpayer money into composting plants, some of them huge. In the past before I started making my own compost, I have obtained a couple of cubic yards from two different facilities. One was very good, the other (which was in the first year of operation) was just what I would call good, not as "finished" as the older compost. I think that a lot would depend upon how the operation was managed. With huge amounts of tax dollars, as well as large amounts of grass, leaves and tree trimmings to work with, I think that it is possible to have a good product. That is usually free to local residents, or for sale at a fairly modest price (eight bucks for two cubic yards the last time I picked some up) to non residents.

Back then, I used it on the garden with good results, but now since I can make better stuff on my own and know for sure what goes in it, I would not hesitate to put theirs on my yard, but would prefer my own compost for the garden.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Bill P.

Some of you have covered most of my objections to this guy offering our friends 'organic compost'. Anything that might discourage people from composting, by implying that making good compost is hard, bothers me. The guy gave these friends, who are new to gardening and to country living, the impression that good compost is desirable but rare, expensive, special, better than non-organic compost. He implied that it requires special ingredients, when really they could make their own certifiably organic compost easily, for free - just the price of gas. Like us, they live near the shore, and could collect leaves, eelgrass, seaweed and shellfish waste from the fish plant, like we do. They could also use kitchen scraps from non-organic produce, non-organic straw, grass clippings, manure from the few local people who keep livestock etc. and still be okay, in my opinion.

I do think there are different degrees of quality in compost. Some I wouldn't use - treated sewage sludge, municipal compost - who knows what goes into sewers and people's compost bins. But these aren't available here so it's a moot point. Then there's the egg producer a couple of hours from here who has started selling yards of manure composted with sawdust and bedding - I've heard that stuff is too hot, and needs to be composted some more before use.

If I lived in the city, and had a postage stamp vegetable garden, I'd consider the organic designer compost.

Somebody mentioned toxic residues of pesticide found in municipal compost - sounds like clopyralid, which was banned a while back, I believe.

Good heavens, it's as beautiful as they said, Bill! Do you actually use your tiller to mix it????

Thanks penserosa. Yes I do, two or three times during the composting of a pile.

If anyone would really care to see some pictures of the other aspects to help understand how and why I do it this way, I can post some.
Bill P.

Well I am definitely interested. I got a bin late last summer and although I'm fairly happy with it, the compost seems pretty wet most of the time and I don't remember having that problem with my pile on the ground.

the compost seems pretty wet most of the time

I had this problem at first with my tumbler as well. Now I just add very little water in the begining, wait, tumble, peer inside, add a bit more water...ect. The trick for me was to only add water if it was "extremely" dry. After the tumbler heats up a few times it seems to maitain its own moisture.

Val

O.K., here goes. (we have had an extremely wet year here thus far and things are not typical at all. In fact, this {{gwi:292861}} is of my back compost pile where I am dumping my kitchen compost bucket at present. You can see that it is too wet. As soon as things dry out some I will take s few front loader scoops of the shredded leaves described below and dump them in this pile and stir it up. It was cooking well until we got so much rain and with almost daily rains, sometimes twice per day, it has just become water logged.

As I previously stated tilling my pile is one of the key things that helps me make it that fine. It is easy and only takes a few minutes. I let it go through the first heat cycle and cool down then run the tiller into it, let it climb up and dig in and drag it back with the tines still turning. That grinds, mixes and aerates it pretty thoroughly and allows me to be sure that it is uniformly moist thought out. The structure of the components are weakened at that point so nothing winds up around the tines. I pile it back up adding in any new material that I may have available at the time and it heats back up a time or two after doing this.

If I may have your indulgence here, in the event that you or anyone else is interested, I will link a bunch of pictures to give an over view of the "big picture" of the way I make compost.

I have many oak leaves from the trees on my property, plus, my neighbors are happy to donate {{gwi:292862}} to get rid of them cause they do not compost or garden. I have two composting areas and can alternate starting a hot pile in one place, while saving shredded leaves in another one. I use a lot of the shredded leaves for mulch in the garden, make compost out of some and usually apply a good layer of them as amendments along with compost, aged horse manure, and green manure from knee high greens that I mow and mulch with my mower after the first of the year.

As the main component of my compost, and depending on the condition of the leaves, I usually {{gwi:292863}} with my big mower. I can easily shred them to {{gwi:292864}}, or take just a little bit more time and shred them up like {{gwi:292865}} which would become compost pretty quickly if just piled up damp and stirred or turned a time or two. However, I prefer to add other ingredients like some aged horse manure, my kitchen scraps and garden waste etc., and for awhile was getting a lot of {{gwi:292866}} for the diversity of it. I think that it would probably be pretty excellent compost without the other things added, but I enjoy doing it and can imagine in my mind that it all works and comes together in the {{gwi:49376}} after being applied in the winter as an amendment and {{gwi:56494}} before the shredded leaf mulch is put down.

In addition to the little front scoop bucket and lift which enables me to pile the compost back up in just about three or four minutes, I have built a number of other handy attachments that help like {{gwi:283952}} to use to fluff or aerate the pile in between tillings. It only takes three or four minutes with that. Due to my age and health concerns, I need all the help that I can get in order to do what I do.

That is just how I do it, and the reason that I do it. I hope that it helps someone in some way. I am not in any way suggesting that it is the only, or the best way to do things, it is just what I have worked out that works well for me, and some of it might be useful to someone else.
Bill P.

"Texas, the Rainy State" ?
:)

'tautology' is the word I was looking for: Needless repetition of the same sense in different words; redundancy.

Jeez Bill, I love reading your posts. Pictures and everything! Now can you calculate how much you would have to sell your compost for in order for you to break even on costs? That should tell us what it would be "worth" to you. I'd rather pay you $3/cu foot and get a top quality product that the maker is proud of, than $.50/cu foot for a load of manure, sawdust and wood chips someone else has tossed together. But that's just me and I suppose it depends on what one is going to use the product for. I guess I look at composting differently as I am not a gardener. I just like to make compost and build stuff to help in that process. I donate some to worthwhile projects (Communities in Bloom, local school beautification projects and door prizes at gardeners meetings) and I have started to sell some. So far, those people that appear to really know gardening, have been impressed with my product. Others just shrug their shoulders and call it "dirt". Not all of us can be true compost wackos I guess.

Lloyd

Thanks Bill! That was very informative and I will figure out how to incorporate your ideas into my wee composting enterprise. Though I don't have a tiller. :-)

Thanks Lloyd and Penserosa.

Lloyd, that is an honorable endeavor. As far as cost, less than an gallon of gas, the rest is free. I would not count my labor, I consider that recreation and entertainment, somewhat similar to the things that you expressed.

I know what you mean about people, some understand and value what is good, others have little or no interest or just don't get it.

I have never really thought about selling any of my compost, I have a big yard with garden, roses and flower beds and like most folks, have not been able in the past to have a real surplus. I have given some away from time to time and those folks that received it always want more.

I have finally reached the point of having more than I need. After using all that I could, I had my little grandson (who really is a big help and loves to play with my little garden tractor), gather up the left over "finished" compost and {{gwi:292867}}. I will cover it with a tarp and start working it into the garden as I can. The row of beans is about done and will soon be mowed. Before I plant anything else there, whether it be summer or wait till fall, I will put a strip of the compost along the row and probably till it in lightly. My row of Black eyed peas will be next after that, but I have some tomatoes scattered along in with the peas, so I will probably just cut abd renive the vines to to be shredded up to go into the compost and leave the tomatoes till they are done. Both of these rows are legumes that do the nitrogen fixing in the soil so I want to leave their roots there.
Best regards and happy composting.
Bill P

Bill, that re-bar sticking up could be an extreme hazard if someone stumbles or trips and falls against it. Maybe bend the top over?

Take care

Lloyd

Thanks Lloyd, point well made, there is not much foot traffic there, mostly just me and my grandson and he helped me put it up. I have an assortment of shorter pieces that I got from our local scrap metal yard back when I was welding around the house here, and they have come in handy for the garden. I think that I will replace those with some shorter ones and drive then down to the level of the 2" X board.
Bill P.

Wow! What wonderful composting pictures. That is why your garden is so beautiful.
I enjoyed your post so much!
karen

Classic, dare I say classy, Bill P. posts.

Brought this up to the top.

Lloyd

Folks on this forum might not have seen the sad news, posted elsewhere on Gardenweb, that Bill P. passed away in March. Re-reading these posts of his, which I enjoyed greatly the first time around too, I found my heart breaking for his grandson, who clearly got great pleasure out of gardening with his grandpa.