Unfortunately, no approved garden practice allows for the use of fresh manures in the vegetable garden. Well composted only. This is especially hazardous with root crops and low-growing leafy greens.

So yes, I'm afraid my answer would be that you have created a situation little different from the many recent produce contamination from run-off situations that have gotten so much publicity. And salmonella wouldn't be my only concern. IMO the lettuce should be tossed into the compost bin and not allowed in the kitchen.

Dave

I agree with Dave. :(

Lorna

I also would never use fresh manure for lettuces.

I wouldn't be quite so concerned if it was a vegetable you cooked but still think it is adviseable to compost or make sure that the time between adding manure and the actual harvest is within the suggested time frame for safety. (see organic standards)

That ATTRA article makes reference to the John Stoessel/ABCNews story that supposedly linked only organically grown produce to disease pathogens, forgettin to mention that the test lab they (Stoessel/ABCNews, the Hudson Institute) used also found the same contamination on "conventionally" grown produce, so that brings that whole ATTRA article into question.
However all manures have disease pathogens (disease causing bacteria and/or viruses) in them and all manures should be composted before being spread on soil adn no manure should be spread on soil sooner than 6 months before that soil is to be planted. I had an uncle that was actively farming in the 1950's that told me that back then, so this is not new knowledge.

kimmsr "so that brings that whole ATTRA article into question"

you obviously did not even read the ATTRA article--plus you don't even have a clue what ATTRA is. They have the BEST publications on how to grow organically available anywhere.

They CRITICIZE the Stoessel/ABC news show and explain why it was false reporting and how the organic industry was caught off guard and had to scramble to deal with it.

Read the section you picked out one word out of and then come back and make comments but at least say you should not have made the ATTRA comment.

ATTRA describes 20/20 show with John Stossel

"the allegations
were contrived and based on poor science. The
sampling was not statistically significant (i.e., the
same sampling done today might produce the
opposite result). The show failed to point out
that the specific test used does not distinguish
between pathogenic and benign forms of E. coli.
Also ignored was the obvious fact that conventional
farmers use manure, too! Furthermore, the
reporter failed to disclose the vested interests of
the individual bringing the charges (Dennis
Avery of the Hudson Institutea "think tank"
heavily funded by conventional agriculture interests),
presenting him instead as a former offi//
MANURES FOR ORGANIC CROP PRODUCTION PAGE 3
cial with the Agriculture Department (5). John
StosselÂthe journalist responsible for the 20/20
reportÂsubsequently issued an apology and a
correction (6).

Goes on to say that the standards concerning application of manure are actualy higher for those who are certified organic.

I don't know why John Stossel still has a job. This not the first time he has gotten the science grossly wrong. A few years ago (in another attack on organic agriculture) he claimed that chemical fertilizer companies are helping the environment by removing nitrogen from the air.

Exsqueeze me????

IMHO, you can't believe a single word John Stossel says, not even "Hello."

-Diggity

Imagine, consensus on something on this forum. Not even a city-mouse country-mouse disagreement. But how exactly does the contamination occur? I've read the warnings and prohibitions but can't grasp the manure => contaminated lettuce concept.

Anyhow that row of lettuce is now green manure. I've always been meticulous about composting manure, even spent mushroom substrate, before putting it on the garden, and plead temporary insanity brought on by overwork, and envy of our friends who produce greens twice the size of ours twice as fast, year in year out, in their riverbottom soil. And greed and pride: this year for the first time we have chicken manure from our four girls. Probably sloth and the rest of the deadly sins are in there too.

Paul, I seem to recall reading somewhere -- you know, somewhere -- that lettuce can take up E. coli into the plant. Oh, look, here it is! (The ASM really, really needs a copy editor.)

Lettuce Plants Internalize Bacteria

Lettuce that has been fertiziled with manure or irrigated with water that is contaminated with E. coli O157:H7 can take the bacteria up through its root system and internalize it inside its leaves, resisting traditional external sanitizing methods. Researchers from Rutgers University report their findings in the January 2002 issue of the journal Applied and Environmental Microbiology.

"In recent years, E. coli O157:H7 has been isolated with increasing frequency from fresh produce, including bean sprouts, cantloupes, apples and leaf lettuce. The mechanisms by which the pathogen is introduced into the lettuce plant are not fully understood," say the researchers.

The researchers tested the hypotheses that the source of the contamination may be poorly treated manure (it is estimated that the pathogen is present in over 8 percent of dairy and beef cattle) or irrigation water that has been contaminated with cattle feces. The bacteria were isolated from plants grown using either medium, but interestingly, the researchers found bacteria in the inner tissues of the plants.

"We have demonstrated that lettuce grown in soil containing contaminated manure or irrigated with contaminated water results in contamination of the edible portion of the lettuce plant," say the researchers. "Moreover, the results suggest that edible portions of a plant can become contaminated without direct exposure to a pathogen but rather through transport of the pathogen into the plant by the root system. The inaccessibility of a large number of organisms, as a consequence of their subsurface location, is perhaps the reason for the lack of effectiveness of surface-sanitizing treatments."

(E.B. Solomon, S. Yaron, K.R. Matthews. 2002. Transmission of Escherichia coli O157:H7 from contaminated manure and irrigation water to lettuce plant tissue and its subsequent internalization. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 68: 397-400.)

http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=3270 -- but I found it in the Google cache

and plead temporary insanity brought on by overwork, and envy of our friends who produce greens twice the size of ours twice as fast, year in year out, in their riverbottom soil. And greed and pride: this year for the first time we have chicken manure from our four girls. Probably sloth and the rest of the deadly sins are in there too.

Wow! Paul, don't be so hard on yourself. :o) It's not as if we all haven't been there, done that...in one form or another sometime. And a lot of us haven't been brave enough to confess them publicly. ;)

Dave

Golly folks, how about all that bird poop being dropped on my tomato plants every day? Chickens are birds. I've got bird droppings everywhere since I feed them right next to the garden and also have a tomato trellis they perch upon (and poop). Rain washes it off right into the surrounding soil and I've always figured it as free ferts. I'm doomed since the lettuce is right next to the 'matos. I'm surely doomed 'cause I'm gonna eat those tomatoes no matter what. Hope the wife doesn't hear about this.

Don't think the risk with tomatoes is the same as lettuce. Even the nationwide salmonella contaminated tomatoes was due to the way the tomatoes are processed by washing in big tanks in possibly contaminated water. ALso if the water in the tank is cooler than the temperature of the tomato , it somehow 'draws' the contaminated water into the fruit.

You don't have those conditions at home. Also you are describing (I think) a few chickens poking around in the garden --which doesn't seem the same as an application of raw manure placed around ALL your vegetables.

However, would I want chickens perching on my tomato trellis, probably not--the droppings would just be too heavy. Do I worry about birds, no. I still wouldn't want fresh manure on uncooked produce like lettuces.

Statistically maybe the risk you described in your garden is marginal for you--I don't know. The concern was greater for children, old people, and people with compromised immune systems.

I think the Wash State Univ recommendations seem the least one could do--ie at least 60 days from application of manure to harvest on vegetables that are not being cooked.

My whole garden (my lush lettuce included) is under 3-4 inches of uncomposted chicken manure---as it was last year. It sure is looking good, but I guess I need to read more about crops susceptible to uptake. Darn. I sure do love fresh manure.

Salmonella comes not just from poultry manure but also from reptiles, there are constant warnings when people purchase turtles as pets to be very careful in handling them because of the potential of salmonella.
Glad to see some people did read that article.

A little bit of bird poo is not the same as a side dressing of bird (chicken) poo.

Annpat, I thought your chicken poo was composted? Isn't deep litter composting? Or, anyway, aging?

The thing is, Dave, I've been giving informal tours of our gardens for a few years and plan to offer tours and workshops on organic growing basics this summer, so I ought to know better. I shouldn't, at least, have put myself in the predicament of wondering whether this produce is safe to eat.

Thanks for that information Alfie - it's oddly hard to find.

What was in the back of my mind when I applied the chicken manure was the thought that our four healthy free-ranging chickens are nothing like factory raised ones. And the fact that they free-ranged the garden for a month before we started eating greens and asparagus from it, without a thought about possible salmonella poisoning and without ill effects.

Yesterday I read this on a blog, which fits with Jbann's comments: "a woman at a farmers market conference last spring allowed her chickens to roam in her asparagus patch eating bugs and fertilizing the asparagus at the same time. She picked and washed and ate the asparagus and never became ill...Though I would not recommend letting chickens or other livestock into the garden near or during harvest time, this woman probably never got sick because she took good care of her chickens, allowed them a good diet and plenty of exercise, and they didnt have salmonella..." I would imagine a great many people do exactly the same thing - think I'll go post about this on the Farm forum.

So, more questions: How would you know if your chickens had salmonella? Are there cultural practices that encourage salmonella and e coli growth?

Doesn't the advice to wait X number of months after applying raw manure before eating fresh produce imply that contaminated greens can become uncontaminated on their own?

http://www.ars.usda.gov/IS/pr/2004/040920.htm
(free range raised vs factory farmed)

I still would rather have free range.

Yes, the deep litter method is composting in situ, but I'm wondering about the fresher contributions.

I have used literally tons of chicken manure in my life without incident and I'm tempted to continue, except that I'm wondering about my mother eating my produce.

Interesting article on plant uptake. In the study they are tracking the plant uptake of the antibiotics in manure used in the garden, not salmonella or e-coli, but some relevant info. Test crops were corn manure, green onions, and cabbage. Interesting difference in uptake.

Also found one on tomatoes and salmonella and e coli that discusses how it is bloom contamination (bloom becomes fruit) that incorporates the bacteria into the fruit in addition to the contaminated water osmosis that farkee mentioned above.

Not having much luck so far in finding anything on the incidence of salmonella in domestic/free range chickens vs. commercial chicken farms. Anybody?

You'd think living here in Tyson-country where there is a huge chicken farm for every 5 sq. miles or so there'd be some available info. But I know they do get antibiotic-enhanced food delivered weekly from Tyson. Do free-range chicks get antibiotics in their food routinely too?

Dave

from USDA (not alot of info)

I still prefer free range.

"Do free-range chicks get antibiotics in their food routinely too?"

Maybe ... maybe not. Feeding medicated food is a choice. We choose non-medicated.

Oops, I just realized I linked the same thing twice. I was trying to link this brochure from the Univ. of Fl.on one of my earlier posts.

The link above has some interesting points about vermicomposting , ie no salmonella or e coli.

Plus that bit about feeding cattle improperly composted chicken litter. Uhh????

And the info about probiotics does seem to suggest an advantage that free-range chickens would have over conventionally raised.

Paul, I think the universe is telling you it's time to go buy some alfalfa pellets and/or alfalfa meal. :)

All the best,
-Patrick

p.s. Could you please send me an email message through my member page here, or via my website? Just tried to send you one but you don't currently have email enabled through GW.

Good one farkee! Very informative> Good info on how even free-range chicks can be salmonella carriers with no symptoms.

Virulent E. coli strains can survive for a few months in animal waste, and Salmonella can persist in untreated farm waste for up to two years (Winfield and Groisman 2003). Proper utilization and composting of animal wastes are important steps for reducing Salmonella and E. coli contamination, and breaking the cycle of reinfection.

Well cooked compost is the way to go it would seem.

Dave

I'm raking out the chicken run today and replacing with fresh hay. My wife is not worried about salmonella from our chickens and ate some of that beautiful lettuce last night. She is okay so far - will keep you all posted. She points out that we've been eating eggs in sometimes slightly poop-streaked shells for months without first washing them thoroughly. Some people we know wipe their eggs, which doesn't amount to disinfecting either. I'm still planning to till that lettuce under, and glad we have other rows to eat and sell lettuce from.

That was an interesting article farkee. That cattle are fed chicken litter should come as no surprise. It is shocking nonetheless.

Patrick, this all seems to come back to the challenge of gardening organically, without the concentrated nitrate sources conventional growers have. I'm still balking at paying for processed alfalfa from a store two hours' drive away. But I've been soaking large quantities of mustard and red clover seed, then scattering them on unused patches of garden, where they sprout and grow, to be turned under at some point. And when there's time we'll drive over to get a few loads of manure from the fellow with the one big horse.

I'll email you soon.

Cattle are fed chicken litter. Lovely.

Hi all,
I am coming from the farm forum and wanting to know about chicken manure and the deep litter method. If you use deep litter method and only change it out every 4 months or so is that considered aged manure or does it have to sit in a heap outside the pen for more time in order to age? We were having a discussion about the safety of using manure when this came up. No one responded so maybe someone on here knows??

BTW cattle eating chicken litten was a little suprising although I don't know why since the chickens eat their litter.

After reading the salmonella and e.coli article above I thought I should share the following:

Through the past few months I've been reading a lot (A LOT) about Lacto bacillus/lactic acid (and other forms of probiotics) in foods for personal, soil, and animal health.

You all might find the article in the main link below informative to your situations regarding concerns about e.coli and salmonella and

You may also find the abundance of links on this SCM thread helpful.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg0219021917181.html

I don't raise chickens but chickens are actually what brought me to the first link on the above thread (via bokashi composting.) Someone who raised chickens was arguing for the use of lacto bacillus serum/lactic acid serum with his chickens and linked to a Rodale article describing capturing your own beneficial microorganisms.

The other thing that spurred on my interest in this subject is when I learned that kefir (fermented milk) contained even more strains of LB than live culture yogurt and could be even more effective in preventing or outproducing the bad bacteria in the gut of humans and animals.

More digging lead me to a Phillipine cock fighting board where a kefir like substance was being fed to the chickens resulting in pronounced health benefits.

It appears, from these articles, that you can culture the LB from air (with a rice wash) or just drain the whey from live culture yogurt or even kefir, dilute it and feed your animals and spray on their litter, resulting in healthier chickens (or pigs) and a more bacteria free litter.

Penny-wow great insite!! The link doesn't work any more. Do you know how I could read more about what you were telling us about?

I have been working with horses since 1964. My horses range in ages of 2 years old, 5 years old, 15 years old, 20 years old and up to 25 years old. In the past 5 years, hay producers in my area have turned to using poultry litter on their hay field as fertilizer because of costs. The square bale hay looks green and great, but my horses just sniff it and walk away. They waste it. They won't eat it. Each year, I have to return the hay and buy hay that was not produced with poultry litter. Thank goodness, most hay producers are being honest when I ask if they used poultry litter in the production of their hay. Last year, when I took 100 bales home from a hay producer that I had bought from previously that season, my horses would not eat the hay. I called the hay producer. He confirmed that he had distributed poultry litter in the production of that hay. When he looked in his notes and realized that I had requested non-poultry litter fertilized hay from the start, he came to our place and removed the 100 bales of poultry litter fertilized hay and replaced it with hay that did NOT get produced with poultry litter. My horses immediately started eating the hay that did NOT have poultry litter used in the production of it. So, here is my question. Has anyone experienced this problem with their horses? If so, what did you do? This has happened to me with 4 separate hay producers. I cannot find anything on the internet that explains this problem. I understand that it is a fairly new process, but surely, someone is recognizing the problem besides me!!!
I got a response: "Be careful feeding this hay to your horses. Chickens spread salmonella. I myself, would never feed my horses this type of hay."
Should I be concerned???
I got another response: "Not at all uncommon. A lot of horses don't like hog manure fertilized hay either. Not new at all. A lot of farmers use manure from chickens and hogs when the price of commercial fertilizer get high. In years past it was much more common. Guess what, if that's all they have to eat for a few days, they get over it, and eat it just fine."
My reply was: Have you had the experience with horses not eating their hay?...and you continued to only give them that hay AND they started eating it??? If so, what problems did you observe? Any health issues? From my experience, this behavior of not eating their hay is not natural. I have been feeding my groups of horses for 48 years. This issue with my horses not eating the hay given them has only occurred since the poultry litter has been used as fertilizer, which has been in the last 5 years. I understand the farmers' need to keep down costs, but for the end result to be that the product not be used (wasted), that seems to defeat the purpose of growing the hay. I wonder what problems have occurred that have not been registered by some agency....where would one report this anyway? It is just not natural for my horses to refuse hay. This is a BIG problem for me. My experience is that the hay producers really don't want to hear this. Yet, to be honest, they need to know this.
Here was the response: "Yes, I've had experience with hay fertilized with chicken, hog, and cattle manure. Sometime they eat it without a problems and other times, a couple of days of it alone, and they eat it just fine. The smell is usually the problem. If they get hungry, they will eat.
Chicken is very high in nitrogen and bad about burning if applied to heavy. It should be composted for awhile before applying. The problems associated with e coli, etc, are usually not there if the application doesn't burn up the hay crop. Seldom do they apply any of these close to harvest time, which gives mother nature plenty of time to dispose of e coli, etc. Sun and rain, will do an excellent job of decomposing. It was used a lot around here, more so, a few years back, and never heard of any problems feeding the hay to horses. When the farmers used horses for tilling it was used extensively for horse hay."
Does anyone have any advice on Hay fertilized with poultry manure and the possiblitity of Salmonella risk??? Thanks

The Salmonella bacteria are found, commonly, in the feces of animals, reptiles, and humans, not just poultry along with numerous strains of E-Coli and several other disease pathogens. That is why fresh animal manures should not be applied to soils where food products are to be grown, even though the incidence rate of food poisoning appears to be quite low. Failure to report is the most likely reason the incident rate is so low.
If someone has a bout of the "stomach flu", actually Gastroenteritis, they most likely have food poisoning since the "flu" is an upper respiratory disease that seldom includes diarrhea.

Horses and cattle both avoid eating grass around field droppings of manure for several months. Likely the grass is high in nitrogen and perhaps some other ingredients.

Its interesting to note, that Paul Gautschi, the 'back to eden' guy spreads material from his chicken coop in the garden. He spreads it directly from the coop. The commercial compost I buy contains pasteurized chicken manure. I want to try pasteurizing my own chicken manure by simmering it in hot water in a designated old pot used only for that purpose outside over a fire (not in home kitchen.) The resulting chicken-poop broth can be dumped on a compost pile to boost nitrogen. I figure that would be safest home approach. Though it seems like too much work and fuel for a small batch of manure at a time. I suppose it can sun-sterilised in larger batches. My main reason for avoiding manure so far, even though its plentiful in my area, is the potential wormers and other chemicals that may hurt my red wigglers and other beneficials, as well as the high salinity.

I wonder if making an aerated compost tea would knock down the bad bacteria - most of which prefer anaerobic conditions. But I have no idea, and I'd want to see some research demonstrating it before putting it on my garden less than 3 months from harvest (which is what is recommended for fresh/uncomposted manures). For all I know it would just be a toxic bacterial soup!

"I'd want to see some research demonstrating it before putting it on my
garden less than 3 months from harvest (which is what is recommended for
fresh/uncomposted manures). For all I know it would just be a toxic
bacterial soup!"

Agreed... even with research, there's the issue of controlled conditions that would remain a concern. Too much work for too little return to be worth the risk, versus just letting it compost for a few more months. There are much safer forms of nutrients available for free or low cost to make this something worth doing.