It's not a dumb question, but it's part of the reason I don't like the green/brown designation. Whether something is green or brown in color doesn't determine whether it is a green or a brown for composting. For example, coffee grounds and manure are both brown in color, nut are considered greens for composting.

What makes something a green or a brown is the C:N ratio. A C:N ratio of 30:1 is ideal for composting. Anything higher than 30:1 is higher in carbon and a brown. Anything lower than 30:1 is relatively higher in nitrogen and a green.

When you dry something that is green and it turns brown, you're mostly removing water, which is made up only of hydrogen and oxygen. A small amount of nitrogen may be lost also, but it would be negligible and the dried grass (or whatever) would still be a green.

Sorry but greens are still "greens" even when dried. It's their structure not their color that counts. So grass, for example, remains a protein (nitrogen) even when dried - just less nitrogen. It doesn't change to a carbohydrate (carbon). ;)

You'll find several past discussions here about this if you want to review some of them.

Meanwhile, many other sources of carbons are available. You just have to use your imagination a bit. Cardboard, brown grocery bags, sugar, buy a bale of straw, etc. See a previous discussion on this question linked below or search the forum for "browns" for even more discussions. It comes up often and several threads have links to lists of "201 things you can compost". ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Ideas for browns?

I was wondering about this same problem today. I was also wondering if straw was considered a brown or green,,since the straw was once green,,wasn't it ???

Here's the link to my list of over 200 things to compost. (see below)

Just so you know, I'm challenged by this myself too - I might raid the woods on the otherside of the garden wall (but I'd rather let the leaves feed the woods' floor & the woodland plants so that the deer will eat those instead of my garden!).

Also, I WAS feeding my compost pile from my "brown stash" of cut up old cotton towels/socks/underwear, cardboard, etc. - UNTIL the cleaning lady EMPTIED out the FULL garbage can of brown stash! C'est la vie!

All the Best, Tree

Here is a link that might be useful: 201+ Compost ingredients

Straw (not hay as many confuse the two) is a brown (carbon, carb) - often considered the "perfect brown" because of its structure. Color is irrelevant - which is why the labels "greens and browns" are so misleading to many.

Straw is hollow and it's carbon rating is approx. 80 depending on the type (oat straw is higher I think). Hay's carbon rating is 0-16 so almost totally nitrogen.

Dave

Thanks everyone for your input! Maybe I can get my hands on some straw and I'll use as many paper products as I can find. And Tree, that was one funny list. I've taken many a walk to the compost pile carrying something I didn't care to share with the rest of the world. ;)

You're all lovely people. Maureen

I'm in the same boat again. I gather a lot of leaves in fall, mulch all my beds with them, then hoard as many as I can store for composting. Around this time of year I run out. I used the last of my leaves a few days ago. I will probably go looking for bale of straw later today. I hate to buy anything for compost but, I have to say, one bale does last me a long time since I don't make as much compost as some of you. I can use a little of it as mulch, too.

Karen

I read the 201 things you can compost list, and I was surprised to see bread products in there, and golf tees. It seems like the tees would take a long time to break down, and I didn't know that bread was a good option.

Also, wouldn't your cotton clothes take a long time to break down?

Maybe the lady who wrote this is just kidding, and I am so new at this I don't realize it.

I use primarily shredded junk mail for browns. I always have plenty of that.

Cotton clothes don't take as long to compost at the telephone book. About 18 months for an intact telephone book to become unrecognizable...

Hi dgiffin!
I'm the chick who wrote the list ;)
Just b/c something takes a while to break down, doesn't eliminate it from the list. Everyone has his/her own different objectives w/composting, so take what you like & leave the rest.

Bread - lots of the posters here (including me) love adding stale bread to the compost pile; some of the posters here (and especially annpat) are absolutely grossed out at the thought of soggy bread, and so, they don't; so, bottom line is that it's "safe" for the pile (i.e. doesn't require the attention, heat, concern for pathogens that say, meat or dairy, does), but not "safe" for some people's gag reflexes.

Cotton clothes (& fabric sewing scraps) - I cut mine up, but then again, I have a small bin. Some just throw 'em in there. My cotton scraps in the pile disappeared over the winter. Plus, add some "holey" underwear to a heap of grass clippings and "bam" they're a gonner.

I've attached a link to a thread from last year about cottons, other clothing fibers, which includes a discussion about what category ("green" or "brown") they generally fall under.

golf tees - sounds like a short twig to me ;) But, I could be wrong (my DH has documented over 8 times that I've been wrong in our 15+ yr life together ;) - maybe others can tell us what golf tees are made of?

All the Best, Tree

Here is a link that might be useful: GW Compost thread about cottons & clothes fibers & greens & browns

d_giffin - nope, it is no joke. Anything that is organic (meaning grown in nature) can be composted. That includes many things most never think of like sugar, dryer lint, old cotton t-shirts, and bread. 1 bale of straw can balance out an awfully lot of nitrogens.

As the gardening season develops and all the garden produce trimmings and such pile up, it can be a challenge to find adequate carbons to balance them. It takes thinking outside the box - the cardboard one. ;) EX: Anyone who is into garage sale tours often go this time of year just to find compostables.

Dave

Oooo, Dave just made me think of something else to add to the list -

record album covers

(y'know the pressboard things that would cover the big disks of vinyl that we bought and begged for in the 70s, and if we were lucky, listed to w/our really huge headsets? and the things that "some of us" used to sort out the seeds from the ...)

(eg maybe you could find these old albums @ garage sales)

BTW, I looked up the making of golf tees on enotes.com; here are a couple of points:

"It is estimated that the U.S. golf markets use about two billion wood golf tees per year. ... The primary wood used is cedar wood. One source is the red cedar, an evergreen conifer grown in the eastern United States."

Maybe a visit to the local golf club is in order ... ;)

All the Best, Tree

Aren't golf tees usually painted?

Karen

Im like others in that I use my leaves straight on the garden beds so my browns are mostly shredded paper and I always have lots. some of the things I automatically put through the shredder which then end up in the compost are, printouts I no longer need, paper bags, envelopes (I tear out the plastic windows), junk mail, grocery store dockets and old phone books. dont throw out your paper, put it all through the shredder and you'll be surprised how much it generates. if you still dont have enough, ask anyone who works in an office to save shredded office paper for you.

The only problem I have with using paper is that it's probably more environmentally friendly to put in back in the paper cycle by recycling it. Since the paper industry uses old paper in the process of making new paper to cut down on using more trees, you have to decide if you want to save trees or speed up your compost pile.

I stockpile other people's bagged leaves (OPBL) in the fall. I take my pickup truck to the nearest suburb (less than 5 miles away) and fill it up, the back and inside the cab. Of course I only put the cleanest bags up front with me! I usually take three truck loads of leaves (and always some pumpkins.)

I have a friend in that neighborhood, she clues me in when most people are raking and so on. She also helpfully told me once which neighbors had put out hay bales (they were Halloween decorations.) I am lucky that they (stupidly) put the leaves in mainly plastic bags there, hence easy to transport and store for however long. We have plenty of trees ourselves, but don't rake most of our yard. It is easier to take OPBL!

I too prefer to recycle my paper, my recycling center is only a mile from my house. But I sure have a lot of junk mail if I ever change my mind! I do worry about the laser printed paper, since that print seems plastic, as it does not degrade. (I have done tests soaking it and so on.)

Marcia

The browns I have easily available are fine wood shavings from a small local lumber mill. Could get sawdust but I like the look of the fine shavings as a mulch mixed with compost and alfalfa pellets. The stuff I put on last year as mulch is almost completely broken down now. I'm never sure which type of wood it is but it probably has a fairly high carbon rating - could be aspen, pine, fir, or spruce. This year I'm layering it in the compost bin also.

Unfortunately living in the middle of a mostly coniferous forest we have few deciduous leaves available.

I'm thinking of getting a paper shredder as we don't have a recycling program available here and only have a weekly newspaper.

Here's a link that may have some useful info. Probably got it from one of you on this forum.

Here is a link that might be useful: carbon/nitrogen ratios

Just today I found the motherlode...the secretary at work was emptying the shredder. I got a huge bag of shredded paper and promises of more to come.

"The only problem I have with using paper is that it's probably more environmentally friendly to put in back in the paper cycle by recycling it."

I dont think it matters if you compost it or put it out for recycling. paper has to be collected, transported and reprocessed to recycle it so it does create pollution although reduces the need for trees. I don't put out what I can use myself and shredded paper is ideal for composting. when I used to get a weekly newspaper delivered those did go out for recycling, but I decided a long time to live without it, the news and tv guide I can get on the internet so I cancelled the paper and went for the reduce option instead.

Just to put another take on it, when I get junk mail I dont shred it straight away. most of it is blank on the back so I put it in a paper tray and use it for printing draught copies or recipes etc, things that dont need to be printed on brand new paper so I use that junk mail to reduce my overall new paper use before it gets near the shredder. By using less paper in the first place, I have very little to put out for recycling and that's pretty darn environmentally friendly. :)

I think of paper and cardboard as junk food for compost. I do add it to my compost but it's more to get rid of it. I also want something in there, if possible, that was growing plant material without processing. Things like leaves and straw bring minerals and goodies which aren't in paper and paper products.

I bought a bale of straw yesterday for $7 and it will last a long time. I'm using it with newspaper to mulch a strip of tithonia along my back fence and what's left will go into my compost. That $7 goes a long way.

In the past straw does take a lot longer in my bins to break down than leaves. But it really lightens the mix a lot and I appreciate that when I go to flip it. Straw seems to keep it from compacting so fast as it rots, keeps it a lighter mix. Paper, even shredded, compacts so readily.

Karen

I'm really bummed out that the price for a bale of straw near me has gone up to $13!!!! You're talking about a lot of money if you use about 6 bales, as I do!

Wow, $13 is pretty pricey.

Karen

Hey tree - some of those record album covers are worth a mint to collectors. Composted I don't think they would be worth as much. ;)

Did you remember to put algae pond scum on the list? It's about time for the ponds to start tuning over here.

Dave

Ok -- Hay is "green" and straw is "brown" and leaving something that was growing out to dry doesn't turn it into a brown. But several places mention using leaves as browns...

If there were any doubt about whether I would be a hot composter or a cold composter, then trying to manage my brown to green ratio puts me squarely in the "it'll be done when ever it gets done, but it'll certainly be done faster than in a landfill" camp.

Leaves are browns because they turned brown on the tree. If you cut a tree down while the leaves are green and strip the leaves off, they're green.

There's nothing wrong with letting your compost turn into compost at its own pace. I call that the "pile it up and let it rot" approach. After a while, if you dig something from the bottom, it'll probably be nice and crumbly. Perfect for use.

bpgreen, the original poster wrote "if I leave some green stuff out of the compost and let it die in a dry state, does it then become a brown?"

And you said no, that a green was "green' regardless of its color -- the nitrogen was still pretty much what it was to start with and that mostly water was removed. Manure and UCG are brown in color but are greens in the composting sense.

Is it because the leaves turn brown in the fall naturally THEN drop vs. pulling living leaves off to die?

I know this sounds nitpicky. The utility company has been trimming in my neighborhood. If I go scavaging, will I be gaining the carbon I need or adding even more nitrogen?

That is the problem with using such misleading terms as browns and greens. The terms actually refer to the primary component of the material, "greens" being nitrogen and "browns" being carbons. The labels are not referencing the color of the material itself. But it confuses those new to the process.

Tree leaves, when green, are still primarily carbon approx. 40:1 depending on type. But once dead and off the tree they are almost wholly carbon (70:1) Straw is 80-100:1. Grass clippings on the other hand are almost pure nitrogen and water at 20:1. Hay is 50:1 if I recall correctly.

There are many C/N Ratio charts available on the web that can help you sort out nitrogens (greens) from carbons (browns).

Dave

"Is it because the leaves turn brown in the fall naturally THEN drop vs. pulling living leaves off to die? "

Yes.

If the trimming companies are trimming trees and chipping the branches, you might be getting browns or greens, depending on how much of what is in the mix is wood. The woody part of the branches is mostly higher carbon (small green twigs have some nitrogen, I think).

Things like cardboard, paper, sawdust are all extremely high in carbon. I add shredded paper to my compost frequently. Some people are concerned about chemicals that may be in the inks and don't add shredded paper. Some people add newspaper. It used to be common for newspaper ink to be petroleum based, but it's more often soy based. You'd have to call your paper to know for sure what it uses.

In the case of the utility company trimmings, there are whole branches that have been cut off the trees and left on the side of the road. Today I saw them out with a big box on wheels with a crane-like attachment going around and picking up the branches.

It just seems so weird that the same leaf could be a carbon or a nitrogen depending on how/why it came off the tree.

Thanks, bp and dd. It's a little clearer than mud now. :)

wonderpets, it's because the tree draws back nutrients from leaves before it sheds them, if you cut them off a tree green, the tree hasnt done that process and there is still nitrogen in them.

Trance -- thank you! that makes perfect sense. (and means that I'll need to snag some cardboard at work today.)

I'm in the same fix-- all that lovely straw from last years 'other people's Halloween decorations' has been used for mulch.

I was thinking of hitting my local Logan's Roadhouse for some peanut shells from their floor. They're basically a root, right? And I bet they'd take a while to break down, even broken up as they are. But,

peanut shells would be a brown, wouldn't they?

Peanut shells are a moderate carbon with a ratio of 35:1, approx. 1/2 the carbon of dead leaves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Basic C/N Ratio Chart

Many/Most peanuts for shelling have been soaked in brine or salted somehow and have a high salt content. Not what you want in your compost. Hubby has tried soaking them in water for a while before composting, he likes shelling peanuts.

About the price of hay and straw bales, I want to throw out that on my street they cost $3.50 as of last winter. It is possible the price went up a smidge since then, they were $2.50 each about 5 years ago. So if you are in SE WI, I can direct you to these cheaper ones. I have two free ones stockpiled in the garage, of course I can never park there because I 'rescue' and save so much stuff.

Marcia

I collect OPBL in fall too, but not as many as most of you. My suburban yard isn't that big and I don't want it full of garbage bags. A couple of neighbors deliver them to me. I mulch all my beds with them first, then save the rest. Last fall I had 1 Biostack bin full of nothing but shredded leaves, as well as 3 30 gallon garbage cans and a few bags. But they're all used up now.

I imagine the price of straw is a supply and demand thing. In farm country, they are probably more readily available and cheaper. Since I'm in the surburbs, I have to buy it from a garden center. I think it was $6 last year but it was $7 this year. I'm using some of it for mulch, the rest for compost.

Karen

Just for comparison purposes.....a bale of straw is $10 here in MA. Can't imagine having to feed a horse!

and another comparision.....IL just paid 3.75 for a bale of straw. And by the by, don't horse's sleep on straw and eat hay? lol

If you or someone you know works in an office, you should have access to all the browns you'd ever need. I was bringing home just the scrap paper I generated, and was completely stocked full in a week or two (note: I have a very small bin)

If you set out a trash can and labeled it 'for compost' or some such, you should have enough browns in short order.

As the original poster here, I am grateful for all your thoughtful responses. I've decided that I'm going to bite the bullet and buy straw for my composting needs even though it seems weird to have to import something when there's some much paper, cardboard, etc. in the world. Some of your responses have made me think hard about the manufacturing processes and chemicals involved in making paper, boxes, etc. And I'm lucky to live in a town (Lexington KY) which has a very strong recycling program. I'm comforted to know that the paper products I put in the recycle bin are going to used in an efficient way. And straw is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Thank you again. Maureen

The only problem I have with using paper is that it's probably more environmentally friendly to put in back in the paper cycle by recycling it.

Dunno about your house, but I'd have to have about a dozen bins to keep up with all the newspaper, junk mail, flyers, etc. we accumulate, not to mention the paperwork I generate from my job (real estate -I work at home).

Only a small fraction of our paper gets composted - it's just too much trouble to run it through the shredder more than once in a while.

A source of off-season browns that occurred to me is pine-chip animal bedding - in a pinch, you could probably use it w/ grass clippings and fruit & veg peels for a brown.

Jason

Hi Snidely! Thanks for your comments. Clearly you have to deal with a lot more paper than I do. The day before yesterday I re-did my compost piles and incorporated my "new" straw ($5.95 a bale at one place, $3 more at the other!). It feels a bit warmer this morning and my yard smells earthy and wonderful.

And I think I may have come across another source: that shreddy shaved wood that surrounds fragile things arriving at gift shops in boxes probably from China. Does anyone have a comment on this material? Thank you! Maureen